Eating pork and shellfish is a grave sin.

[nephilimiyr]

Jeremiah 31:33 states that "I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts (NIV)." How do you explain that? it is a prophecy of the New Covenant. The New Covenant had the law on the cross with Jesus and He brought the new laws, Love God and Love nieghbor. Colossians 2:13-15 says that "He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us;he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross (NIV)." The Old Law is nailed to the cross.

servant4ever

I don't agree that Jesus brought new laws. Jesus came not to bring new laws and regulations but as you said to nail the laws on the cross with him.

Jesus came to redeam us of our sins. If we try and pretend that we have to obey the regulations of the Old Testament we mock God and his real plan of salvation. Also if we believe Jesus brought new regulations we again mock God and the gift he gave us.

Do you concur?

 

[nephilimiyr]

The meaning of law is love. Why obey the law? because we love so obey the law. Love is the fufilment of law.

We are not under the law . This implies we are not under judgement but under grace.

The law is the knowledge of sin Roms. 3:20, it is not love itself. It was brought about through love and given to us through love but it does not mean love itself. Love is many things and can be shown in many different ways.

Galatians 2:19, For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal. 2:21, I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, THEN CHRIST IS DEAD IN VAIN.
Tell me joshua_cheung, what is the reason to keep the law after Jesus Christ died for us? If we practise the law we are saying jesus died in vain. If we say we can't eat pork because the Old Testament says we can't then we say that Jesus died in vain.

Gal. 3:24-26, Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
For you are all the children of God by faith in Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 1:9-10, Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine
The law was made for the unrighteous, not the righteous, Jesus Christ has made us righteous through his blood.

 

[joshua_cheung]

The law is the knowledge of sin Roms. 3:20, it is not love itself. It was brought about through love and given to us through love but it does not mean love itself. Love is many things and can be shown in many different ways.

Galatians 2:19, For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal. 2:21, I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, THEN CHRIST IS DEAD IN VAIN.
Tell me joshua_cheung, what is the reason to keep the law after Jesus Christ died for us? If we practise the law we are saying jesus died in vain. If we say we can't eat pork because the Old Testament says we can't then we say that Jesus died in vain.

Gal. 3:24-26, Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
For you are all the children of God by faith in Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 1:9-10, Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine
The law was made for the unrighteous, not the righteous, Jesus Christ has made us righteous through his blood.

Yes, The law is the knowledge of sin. However, love is the fulfillment of the law too.

Roman 13:8 - 10
Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet,"[1] and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."[2] Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

 

[Icystwolf]

Jeremiah 31:33 states that "I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts (NIV)." How do you explain that? it is a prophecy of the New Covenant. The New Covenant had the law on the cross with Jesus and He brought the new laws, Love God and Love nieghbor. Colossians 2:13-15 says that "He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us;he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross (NIV)." The Old Law is nailed to the cross.

servant4ever

Servant4ever, don't get covernant and law mixed up, as I see in your arguments.

Also, I think you interpertation of Jeremiah is seriously incorrect in the way your are following it.

Jeremiah 31:33 states that "I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts

If you are saying that Jesus had new laws.... that would mean, my laws which is Jesus' laws, replaced God's law....however we know that Jesus is God. So if you want to argue that Jesus did bring new laws, then this statement would prove that Jesus is not the son of God, which is clearly out of context of the prophesy.

And in anycase, it doesn't say ''new laws', it just says "law"....

So how I would think abouts that phrase, would be, in the past, the law was told to them, in the OC, in the NC, the laws are placed into their hearts and minds!

NB. I hadn't read this chapter of Jeremiah, for this post, so please correct me if I'm wrong if I'm out of context...and i'll fix it up

 

[nephilimiyr]

Yes, The law is the knowledge of sin. However, love is the fulfillment of the law too.

Roman 13:8 - 10
Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet,"[1] and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."[2] Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

But who fullfilled the law? Jesus or ourselves by obeying the law

Tell me, how does eating pork and shellfish make us committ a great sin and why even after Jesus died for us we must obey this law when we are supposed to be dead to the law. What part of eating pork or not eating pork has anything to do with loving thy neighbor and loving God?

I'll wait for your reply.

Also I must say I have really enjoyed our discussion on this tonight. It has allowed me to go over some scripture that I haven't for awhile. I've actually been studing the Old Testament lately.

God Bless!

 

[nephilimiyr]

I think it's about time symes answer's these questions!

Symes you still need to prove the following, and I am adding to the list:

NOTHING doesn't mean NOTHING

NOTHING is to be refused...

EVERY doesn't mean EVERY

Every creature God created is good...

CREATURE doesn't mean CREATURE

Every creature God created is good...

Why God didn't correct Peter on the meaning of the vision when it is clear he thought it was about food, and realized the second meaning later.

Why Christ himself said "It is not what goes into a man's mouth that defiles him."

Or someone...

 

[joshua_cheung]

But who fullfilled the law? Jesus or ourselves by obeying the law

Tell me, how does eating pork and shellfish make us committ a great sin and why even after Jesus died for us we must obey this law when we are supposed to be dead to the law. What part of eating pork or not eating pork has anything to do with loving thy neighbor and loving God?

I'll wait for your reply.

Also I must say I have really enjoyed our discussion on this tonight. It has allowed me to go over some scripture that I haven't for awhile. I've actually been studing the Old Testament lately.

God Bless!

Of course, Jesus.

I don't think eating pork and shellfish commit any sin.
However, if you are Jews, you have to obey the rules of God which stated in the Old testatment. God said it was unclean, then it became unclean. This is called obedience to God.

Then you will ask why don't we follow the old testatment? Reason, we are not Jews. The agreement of Old Testatment is not for us but for Jews.

If you have any agreement with someone, you are bounded to the conditions of that agreement.

 

[Icystwolf]

Josh, ever since the new covernant, the old covernant does not exist anymore, so technically the jews we see today, they're all phoney

 

[Salvatore Gonzales]

 

[joshua_cheung]

Josh, ever since the new covernant, the old covernant does not exist anymore, so technically the jews we see today, they're all phoney

Hello, Icystwolf, Why doesn't the old covernant exist anymore?

 

[Symes]

Hello, Icystwolf, Why doesn't the old covernant exist anymore?

True, the old covenant does not exist. It is just that bthe health laws were not part of the old covenant. There is not way that unclean food is now clean because Jesus died on a cross. It just does not make sense to think that way.

 

[nephilimiyr]

True, the old covenant does not exist. It is just that bthe health laws were not part of the old covenant. There is not way that unclean food is now clean because Jesus died on a cross. It just does not make sense to think that way.

Then why are you debateing this?

 

[deu58]

hello all

Rather than say the Old Covenant no longer exists I think it would be more proper to say that the Old Covenant is no longer binding on the believer today. The Old Covenant is still a good source of instruction to live a life that is pleasing to God to day.


Paul actually gives the law some credit for this while also stating it is not really necessary.

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Notice in verse 23 Paul does say there is wisdom to be found in doing these things but they are not really required any more but if you chose to do and practice these things that's up to you.

Ac 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
Ac 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
Ac 21:22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
Ac 21:23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; Ac 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law
Ac 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law
Ac 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Notice in Acts 21 we have Christian Jews who are still obeying the law and offering sacrifices in the temple. James the brother of the Lord encourages Paul to do the same by doing a temple service with 4 of the Jerusalem brothers as a peace offering and show of faith to mollify the bad feelings between the believing Jews who felt that Paul had abandoned what they considered to be the true way of God.

The Apostles were not telling any one that they had stop obeying the Old Covenant nor were they teaching that anyone had to start obeying
the law. They were teaching Christ risen and the law of love.

James also makes clear in verse 25 that they have not instructed the believing Gentiles that they must do the same as the believing Jews.
James is referring back to the decision made concerning the Gentiles in Acts 15.

It was the personal choice of the Jews to obey the law. They did not have to. We have Gentiles today who choose to follow the Messianic way of observing the Torah, And we have Jews who are members of various denominations today who are strictly New Testament believers
and there is nothing wrong with either one of these groups of believers.

The New Testament itself testifies to the usefulness of the Old Testament to the believer today. When Paul made this statement there was now New Testament Scripture yet for it was still being revealed.

2ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


The problem today is the very same problem they had then. There were and are people from both groups who judged each others way of serving God and demanded that everybody must do it their way or they were Apostates.

There are always those who demand that we must follow their way or we are judged unworthy by them. They always claim that it is God who has judged and they are just the witnesses testifying to our judgment. As Solomon said, There is nothing new under the sun.

yours in Christ
deu58

 

[joshua_cheung]

I agree.

 

[Froghair]

I think the Old Testament Laws in itself (Mosaic Law, dietary laws, etc.) are invalid for Christians today. Jesus even broke the Sabbath (Luke 13:10-17 for instance). Jesus came to break the law and to bring grace and love to the world. We need to live in grace and love. For we know Ephesians 2:8-9, it is NOT BY WORKS we are saved, it is by grace. Then if we are not saved by the law, then why do we have to follow it? The only commands Jesus gives are based around love, love God and neighbors. Murdering is not loving neighbors. Stealing is not loving neighbors. Jesus repeats these. Jesus cares more about the heart, which the new law is written on (Jeremiah 31:33). If anyone is interested, I have a paper about this, just send me a PM and I will figure out a way to send it to you.

servant4ever

Jesus even broke the Sabbath (Luke 13:10-17 for instance). Jesus came to break

Jesus didn't break the Law of God... He may have broke the talmudic law (traditions of men). He wrote the law. 1 John 3:4 says that "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

As for pork and shell fish... Those were health issues.. Still are. God put those things on earth to keep it clean.. scavengers (swine) oysters and shell fish are just little filters.. He just didn't want us eating the vacuum system.

I'm new at this, it seems like good fun!

 

[Symes]

As for pork and shell fish... Those were health issues.. Still are. God put those things on earth to keep it clean.. scavengers (swine) oysters and shell fish are just little filters.. He just didn't want us eating the vacuum system.

I'm new at this, it seems like good fun!

They did not become clean at the cross. No one can in their right mind should believe that after the death of Christ it made the unclean, clean.

 

[joshua_cheung]

Jesus even broke the Sabbath (Luke 13:10-17 for instance). Jesus came to break

Jesus didn't break the Law of God... He may have broke the talmudic law (traditions of men). He wrote the law. 1 John 3:4 says that "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

As for pork and shell fish... Those were health issues.. Still are. God put those things on earth to keep it clean.. scavengers (swine) oysters and shell fish are just little filters.. He just didn't want us eating the vacuum system.

I'm new at this, it seems like good fun!

welcome, Froghair.

 

[deu58]

They did not become clean at the cross. No one can in their right mind should believe that after the death of Christ it made the unclean, clean.

hello Symes

How about responding to the article therese littleflower posted with something besides your personal opinion

yours in Christ
deu58

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

True, the old covenant does not exist. It is just that bthe health laws were not part of the old covenant. There is not way that unclean food is now clean because Jesus died on a cross. It just does not make sense to think that way.

There you go spouting something that the Bible doesn't say. Show the food laws existing prior to the Law according to the scripture. Noah was given every creature to eat, at that time the clean and unclean designation only had to do with sacrifice.

 

[thereselittleflower]

They did not become clean at the cross. No one can in their right mind should believe that after the death of Christ it made the unclean, clean.

Symes

Were YOU unclean ? Did the cross make YOU clean?


Peace in Him!