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Eating pork and shellfish is a grave sin.

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FisherofMan

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I believe the clearest one is from Jesus himself. Just read the Gospels. I was confused by reading the Old Testament 1st as well. Read the Gospels. Somone asks Jesus about unholy food and he says something to the affect that "It isn't what comes into your body, it is what comes out" Meaning from you mouth, your works, etc. It's pretty clear. Personally I would read the New Testament 1st. The ten commandments do and dont apply to us. Jesus summarized the 10 commandments to 2. Love God. And Love Man. That summarizes them all except the Sabbath. Which we now celebrate on the 1st day of the week. I think because that's when Jesus ressurected
 
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pmarquette

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Symes said:
You cannot show me one place in the New testament to say that we are not under the food laws. God cannot change. Are you really serious in saying that from say the birth of Christ that pigs are now clean. How can God change things from unclean to clean? He never did and never will.
As a sign of apostasy , false doctrine Paul wrote to Timothy ....
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
Paul wrote to the Jewish christians , regarding the gentile converts ... grow up and get over it ....
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
ruling by Paul , James , Peter regarding baby christians who were employed by or servants of the priests of pagan gods.... invoking the dietary laws of the Jews
( The entire book of galatians deals with becoming jewish first , observing the tenants of Leviticus and Deuteronomy , then becoming christian's , the Judaizers ... Paul refutes and calls an embarassment )
Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.


consensus was let the Holy Spirit convict them of what is sin and what is ignorance and immaturity .... back off and let them grow up in the Lord , rather than climbing on their cases and blowing them out of the church ...
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.;)
 
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Symes

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Romans 14:15-17

"If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit"

When we read a few texts before we can better get an understanding of what the meaning is of verse 17. "If your brother is distressed because of what you eat" and then it is plainly put in verse 17 "For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking"

These verses do not give any of us the right to eat unclean food.
 
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thereselittleflower

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Symes . . you have never addressed the this passage in the New Testament where Paul tells Christians to eat whatever they find in the market, and whatever is put before them at pagan feasts . . . and these foods include unclean foods such as SWINE, HORSES, DOGS, etc . .

Here it is again for you:

Now, something that should be taken into consideration, in my opinion, is the issue of meats offered to idols, and the instructions in the New Testament about them, especially Paul's. .

This is what Paul said:



1Co 10:25
Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:


1Co 10:26 For the earth is
the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.


Now, the question is, what kinds of meats were offered to idols?


Just Jewish Kosher meats? Just meats declared CLEAN by the Jewish Law?


Why would someone think this since pagans were not Jewish and not under Jewish dietary laws? Is it reasonable to think this?


I had to do some searching, and becaue there is an abundance of SDA and other sites which want Christians to be restricted to Jewish kosher dietary laws (which are going to give me biased information) it took a long time to go through it, I didn't have time to contiune searching for more information.

But I believe that determining what kinds of food would find their way into the market place after being offered to an idol is essential to helping us to understand the freedom we have in the New Testament . .

I found this as an example:



Worship

The most widespread public act of
worship in ancient Greece was sacrifice , especially the blood sacrifice of animals. The temple s of the Greek religion generally were not public gathering places where people gathered socially for collective indoor prayer; most temples were little more than boxes that held a cult idol of the deity. Rather, the temples were part slaughterhouse and part barbecue;ox en, sheep , horses, swine , dogs, various birds, and almost every kind of beast, be it fur, fish, or fowl, were offered as sacrificial victims to one deity or another, again depending chiefly on local custom. When we are told in studies of mythology that "horses are sacred to Poseidon " or roosters to Hermes , what this meant first and foremost was that these animals were customarily offered as sacrifices to those gods. Most sacrificial victims were food animals; for these, the usual practice was to offer the god the blood, bones, and hide of the victim, while the worshippers kept and ate the rest.

The Roman formula expressed the attitude of worshippers to their gods in the formula do ut des; I give sacrifices, so that the god will reward me in return. Public worship was aimed at pleasing the gods so that the gods would send rain, good harvest, military victories, and other public blessings. Private sacrifice was offered for personal goals.
Prayer was highly formulaic and ritualized. Most places did not have professional full-time clergy ; priests were local officials whose priesthoods were not full time jobs. Major religious sites such as the oracle s of pilgrimage brought in enough spiritual tourism to need a full time clerical staff.
http://www.tutorgig.com/encyclopedi...=Greek_religion


Now . . looking at what would be the usual foods offered to idols Paul is speaking of, and his instruction to eat whatever was put before one without asking if it was offered to an idol, we see this . .

Here are several translations of this verse from above:




1Co 10:25


(ALT) Whatever is sold in the meat-market, eat, examining nothing, for the sake of the conscience.

(ASV) Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, eat, asking no question for conscience' sake,

(BBE) Whatever meat may be had at the public market, take as food without question of right or wrong;

(CEV) However, when you buy meat in the market, go ahead and eat it. Keep your conscience clear by not asking where the meat came from.

(Darby) Everything sold in the shambles eat, making no inquiry for conscience sake.

(DRB) Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, eat: asking no question for conscience' sake.

(EMTV) Eat everything being sold in the meat market, questioning nothing, for conscience' sake;

(GB) Whatsoeuer is solde in the shambles, eate ye, and aske no question for conscience sake.

(GNB) You are free to eat anything sold in the meat market, without asking any questions because of your conscience.

(HNV) Whatever is sold in the butcher shop, eat, asking no question for the sake of conscience,

(ISV) Eat anything that is sold in the meat market without raising any question about it on the ground of conscience,

(KJV+) Whatsoever3956 is sold4453 in1722 the meat market,3111that
eat,2068 asking no question350, 3367 for conscience sake:1223, 4893(KJVA) Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:

(LITV) Eat everything being sold in a meat market, examining nothing because of conscience,

(YLT) Whatever in the meat-market is sold eat ye, not inquiring, because of the conscience,

Given the wide range of, to the Jews, UNCLEAN anmals offered to idols and sold in the markest, the "WHATEVER" "EVERYTHING" and "ANYTHING " sold in the markets would include these unclean animals . . And Paul was instructing them that they could eat anything they found there . .



WHY?

Paul tells us:




1Co 10:26
For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.





Then Paul goes on to say MORE! :
1Co 10:27 If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.



If Christians are not to eat Jewish Unclean meats, yet the Christian is at a feast given by pagans who eat unclean animals all the time, why would Paul tell them to eat whatever is put in front of them . . and not to even ask questions about it? You were not to ask what animal this meat was from, or if it were offered to an idol . . you were to simply eat it!

NOW AGAIN . .. the meats that the pagans ate were of all types . .they did not hold to the food restrictions of the Jews . . so swine could be offered, anything could be set before you . . and what comes next begs a very important question!

This is what comes next:



1Co 10:28 But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:



1Co 10:29 Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience?


IF it was SO important to abstain from unclean animals, then WHY did Paul only mention to not eat ONLY because it was offered to idols? (And not because it was wrong, but because you could injure the conscience of the one who brought it to your attention because they thought is was wrong . . Paul is advocating acting in a loving way that puts the other's needs before our liberty in Christ . . )



In fact, IF it was SO important to abstain from unclean animals, then WHY did Paul NOT tell them to make sure that they were ONLY eating CLEAN meats?


He didn't tell them to be careful to do that . . !!!


He told them to eat ANYTHING fully knowing that this ANYTHING most likely would be UNCLEAN animals according to Jewish dietary laws!!:eek:



I see absolutely NO evidence that Christians were EVER expected to eat only those meats declared clean by Jewish dietary laws . .

Quite the contrary, I see we are told to eat ANYTHING put before us because the earth is the Lord's and the FULLNESS thereof . .




1Co 10:30



For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?






We are under the Law of Liberty . . :)





Peace in Him!
 
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Symes

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IF it was SO important to abstain from unclean animals, then WHY did Paul only mention to not eat ONLY because it was offered to idols? (And not because it was wrong, but because you could injure the conscience of the one who brought it to your attention because they thought is was wrong . . Paul is advocating acting in a loving way that puts the other's needs before our liberty in Christ . . )



In fact, IF it was SO important to abstain from unclean animals, then WHY did Paul NOT tell them to make sure that they were ONLY eating CLEAN meats?


He didn't tell them to be careful to do that . . !!!


He told them to eat ANYTHING fully knowing that this ANYTHING most likely would be UNCLEAN animals according to Jewish dietary laws!!:eek:



I see absolutely NO evidence that Christians were EVER expected to eat only those meats declared clean by Jewish dietary laws . .

Quite the contrary, I see we are told to eat ANYTHING put before us because the earth is the Lord's and the FULLNESS thereof . .




1Co 10:30



For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?





We are under the Law of Liberty


I do not have an answer to everything that is in the Bible. I do not believe for one moment that Paul would have told the Jews to eat unclean food. The reason I say that is that the Jews would have made a very big objection to such a command.

The Jews today are not following such advice. They do not eat unclean food. From what Paul says the Jews did not go ahead and eat unclean food. This command if as you say is to eat unclean food goes against everything that God has said before.

The cross did not change foods from unclean to clean. It changed the way we come to Christ. There were no more sacrifices offered.

James 2:8-12 (NIV)
"If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself,"[1] you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "Do not commit adultery,"[2] also said, "Do not murder."[3] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.
12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom"


What do you think the "royal law" is? James is quoting from the ten commandments. That is the "royal law" He does not quote every one of them but it is obvious that is where he is getting his ideas from.

(KJV)
"If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty
"


So we are going to be judged by the ten commandments.
 
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servant4ever

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Symes,

Why did the author of Hebrews say that the Law is obsolete (8:13)? The Law is part of the old covenant, which is obsolete. It is invalid for us Christians. With the story of Jesus talking to the rich ruler, I'll paste the passage over from www.biblegateway.com:

"Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?" "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." "Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'" "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?" Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." (NIV)"

Jesus does not care about the commands. If a person keeps all of them, it is useless because it is obsolete. It is the matter of the heart Jesus cares about. 1 John 4:17 states that "in this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him (NIV)." We don't have to be afraid of the judgment if we love, which is the main command Jesus has, love God and love neighbor.

Jesus also says that things on the outside is what makes a person clean or unclean, it is what is inside. It is the inside that matters. Everything revolves around love because God is love (1 John 4:8). The purpose of the Old Law and Covenant was to show what Jesus did. He conquered sin. He followed the Old Law and now the New Law is to love. That is what we will be judged on.

servant4ever
 
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thereselittleflower

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Symes said:
I do not have an answer to everything that is in the Bible. I do not believe for one moment that Paul would have told the Jews to eat unclean food. The reason I say that is that the Jews would have made a very big objection to such a command.

The Jews today are not following such advice. They do not eat unclean food. From what Paul says the Jews did not go ahead and eat unclean food. This command if as you say is to eat unclean food goes against everything that God has said before.

The cross did not change foods from unclean to clean. It changed the way we come to Christ. There were no more sacrifices offered.

James 2:8-12 (NIV)
"If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself,"[1] you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "Do not commit adultery,"[2] also said, "Do not murder."[3] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.
12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom"


What do you think the "royal law" is? James is quoting from the ten commandments. That is the "royal law" He does not quote every one of them but it is obvious that is where he is getting his ideas from.

(KJV)
"If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty
"


So we are going to be judged by the ten commandments.

Symes . ..

You just contradicted yourself . . . and you failed to demonstrate what you claimed in the last part above ..

The ROYAL LAW is NOT the 10 Commandments!

Paul says exactly what the ROYAL LAW IS!!:

"If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Again:

Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself
Is the ROYAL LAW - not the 10 commandments . .



Also, you are completely sidestepping my post in your response to it ..

You don't have an answer, but instead of saying why I am wrong, you say that you simply can't believe that Paul would have told JEWS to eat UNCLEAN foods!


But that competely misses it!


the CORINTHIANS were NOT JEWS!


Paul was speaking to GENTILES!


He was not telling JEWS to eat unclean foods . . . (whether or not Jews could now eat unclean foods is another issue, but not one that applies here, so lets do the honest thing here and not confuse the issue by bringing in an element that does not exist in the scripture passage I gave, OK ?? Thanks!)


So . . Paul is speaking to GENTILES . .

He is telling them to eat WHATEVER is put in front of them, asking no quesitons . . and these are foods that are offered, as a matter of course, to idols . .and so can be ANY UNCLEAN animal!


Now . . if you say that you don't know why Paul would say such a thing, that is one thing . .


But you cannot deny he SAID IT!


And the FACT that he SAID IT means that your theology about this is VERY FLAWED


OR


PAUL's theology is VERY FLAWED!! :eek:


Which is flawed? YOUR theology? Or PAUL's?

Is the scripture infallible?

Are PAUL's words here included in scripture infallible?


OR are YOU infallible in your understanding when you tell us we can't eat Old Testament unclean meats?


Peace in Him!
 
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deu58

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</FONT>Hello symes
<FONT face=Verdana>
I do not have an answer to everything that is in the Bible.

If you do not have an answer to everything then why do you make so demands on people saying they are doing the devils work if they do not agree with you.

yours in Christ
deu58
 
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EdmundBlackadderTheThird

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Symes said:
deu

Does it say anywhere in the Bible that the Jews or the early Christians started to eat unclean foods?

Does it say they didn't? Really Symes that logic is completely silly. There are all sorts of verses in the NT that prove we are not under the food laws. we have posted them, even the words directly from Christ's mouth when he said that it is not what goes into a man's mouth that defiles him. You just stubbornly ignore all the evidence.

Symes said:
Where did Paul get these laws from?

Well since Paul said his writing was inspired by the Holy Spirit I would assume that's wghere he got them. Jesus also stated those were the laws that we had to follow.
 
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servant4ever

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Symes said:
deu

Does it say anywhere in the Bible that the Jews or the early Christians started to eat unclean foods?

God tells Peter in the Book of Acts that all foods are clean (I can't think of the exact reference right now, I have class in a short while, don't have time to look it up now). Also Jesus states that unlcean food does not make a person unclean, it is what comes from the inside that makes a person unclean.

I hope this clears some things up,

servant4ever
 
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thereselittleflower

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Symes said:
thereselittleflower





Where did Paul get these laws from?


Hi Symes


We are discussing this in another thread . . but since you asked here as well, I will reproduce my response here too . .

This law is older than the 10 commandments by the way . . it predates them . . it is of the natural moral law that God put into existance from the beginning . .



Let's take a look at this . . .

Where is it first found?


Lev 19:18
Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour asthyself: I am the LORD.

Lev 19:34But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him asthyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
"Ah HA" you say . . this is not a new commandment . it is a very old one!



Well, the law is based on the natural moral law which preceeds all written law, right?

Let's look at this law again as it appears in the Old Testament . . there is something missing . .


It is only given to the Israelites to tell them how they are to treat others of the CHILDREN OF THY PEOPLE . . in other words, it only extended to those who were Israelites . . no one else . . except for those strangers who dewll WITH them . . they are to be treated as one of them . . But no one else . .

So this statement appears ONCE in the OLD Testament in an INCOMPLETE form . . and is applied in a second place to strangers joined to Israel . . but no one else . .

In contrast to this is the Old Testament, the 10 commandments are discussed many times . . .



Now, in contrast to all this, in the NEW Testament this phrase, this law is found 7 times . . that is interesting because that is the number of completion . .

And one of those instances says this:



Gal 5:14​
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour asthyself.
All the law has been fulfilled . . . we only need keep this one law, only need do this . . and we have fulfilled all the law . .


Peace in Him!
 
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Symes

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Lev 19:18

Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour asthyself: I am the LORD.
As you have said it is an old law. This law was not new to Christ at all. So as it was not new, how is it that according to you and others we should obey this one but not the ten commandments?
 
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thereselittleflower

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Symes said:
As you have said it is an old law. This law was not new to Christ at all. So as it was not new, how is it that according to you and others we should obey this one but not the ten commandments?
Symes

I think I answered that in my post above . .

This "law" to love one's neighbor given in the Old Testament was incomplete . . and is not the same one as given by Christ and the Apostles (7 times) in the New Tesament . .

That given in the New Testament is the full law not revealed yet in the Old Testament Law . . . and is based on the NATURAL MORAL LAW that predates anything written in the bible . .

So . . if you want to keep the Old Law and the limited "thou shalt love thy neighbor . . then you will not be keeping the Law that Christ gave . .

You can stick to the lower laws that brings death, and binds one . . . or you can follow the higher laws of liberty and love . .

Which is more important to you?


Peace in Him!
 
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thereselittleflower

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Symes said:
As you have said it is an old law. This law was not new to Christ at all. So as it was not new, how is it that according to you and others we should obey this one but not the ten commandments?
And Symes . . I did answer you in the post you responded to . . do you actually read what I say or only wha you think it says?


Here again is your very explicit answer:



Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour asthyself.




All the law has been fulfilled . . . we only need keep this one law, only need do this . . and we have fulfilled all the law . .


Peace in Him!

 
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Symes

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Does it say they didn't? Really Symes that logic is completely silly. There are all sorts of verses in the NT that prove we are not under the food laws. we have posted them, even the words directly from Christ's mouth when he said that it is not what goes into a man's mouth that defiles him. You just stubbornly ignore all the evidence



No, it is not silly logic. We want some evidence that the Jews went out and started eating unclean food. They do not today and did not then. They did not understand that Paul was telling them to eat unclean food.
 
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thereselittleflower

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Symes said:
No, it is not silly logic. We want some evidence that the Jews went out and started eating unclean food. They do not today and did not then. They did not understand that Paul was telling them to eat unclean food.
Symes . . remember the many posts where we tried to help you understand that we were not talking about changing the Sabbath? but that Sunday was not a new sabbath, but a new day of worship and that the sabbath remained on saturday . . and we didn't observe it?



I see the same thing happening here . .

You keep aksing us to show you where Paul told the JEWS to eat unclean food . .

We are NOT talking about what Paul told the JEWS!!


We ARE talking about what Paul told GENTILE CHRISTIANS!!


And we have provided MANY passages that show that CHRISTIANS are not bound to the JEWISH dietary laws!!!


I made a very long post showing how the food in the market place that had been offered to idols are many times of those animals that are dietary unclean to the Jews . . yet Paul TOLD CHRISTIANS to eat what ever they find, what ever is put in front of them at pagan feasts . . . asking no questions!!

Paul CLEARLY advocated the eating of those foods that were once considered unclean in JEWISH dietary laws, but which the CHRISTIAN is FREE TO EAT . .and showed no qualms that they would encounter these "unclean" foods, including swine!

His ONLY qualm was if someone else brought it to the attention of the CHRISTIAN that the food had been offered to an IDOL , , ,and if another did so, to not eat it to PROTECT THE CONSCIOUS of the person who told you!!



CHRISTIANS ARE ALLOWED to eat ANYTHING if it is received with thanksgiving!


Otherwise, PAUL was in GRAVE ERROR when he told the Corinthians to eat whatever they found in the market place or puit in front of them at pagan feats . . this could be swine, horse, dog, etc . ..


Since his instructions are part of scripture . . and scripture is inspired word of God .. I would say that the likelyhood of Paul being in GRAVE ERROR in this wouild be slim to none . . well . . since it is the inspried word of God, I would really have to say NONE!!


What do you say?


Peace in Him!
 
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Symes

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Since his instructions are part of scripture . . and scripture is inspired word of God .. I would say that the likelyhood of Paul being in GRAVE ERROR in this wouild be slim to none . . well . . since it is the inspried word of God, I would really have to say NONE!!


What do you say?



Paul was not in grave error it is our understanding of what he says that is in grave error. Paul was a Jew. He never understood from what he said that Gentiles or Jews could now eat unclean food. He never did it. No where does it say the Gentiles or the Jews ate unclean food.
 
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