Eating meat = huge risk

[coffee4u]

Certainly, no one should judge anyone else. That comment does however pressupose that eating meat is a harmless activity. If by 'thinking less of' you mean making a negative ethical determination about the behaviour.

From the herbivorous perspective, we see sentient beings suffering. We speak out about this as anyone would in the same situation.

Were this a debate about human-human murder, it would not be seen as preachy. This is only because it is unilaterally accepted to be wrong.

We herbivores could perhaps be more tolerant. As i've said before, we're dealing with millennia-old dietary practices. On the other side omnivores also would do well to try and understand the clear ethical delineations we're driven by. For me it comes down to unecessary suffering. I don't need meat to survive or even thrive, so I can't justify causing suffering to obtain it. This is how stark the ethical issue is. When reasoned this way, the conclusion feels inescapable.

I know that my main hope is that people will think of meat consumption as an almost sacred activity. Our food animals offer up lives and agonies for our sustenance. It would be amazing if many would go further, but this would alleviate so much suffering.

The verse makes the meaning pretty clear on both sides.
The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant?
There is to be no contempt or judging for eating or not for eating.

I don't know about the rest of this thread, I haven't been a part of it. I am replying to the OP who said:
"How can you be sure that evil forces have not been conspiring to destroy you by making you believe murder is ok?"
I take exception to being called a murder.

 

[777GodLover777]

Hey, first post here, thought I might comment on this thread.

I'm going to basically just preach "non-preachiness" here. I really don't think this debate is ever really going to be a hill worth dying on. I totally understand where vegans and vegetarians are coming from. Killing animals is sort of iffy, it's kind of upsetting when you think about it, but it's just natural I suppose.

Whether you believe in evolution or creationism, it's quite apparent that we as humans are built to eat meat, we have for hundreds of thousands of years. Most religions (most because Jainism and other Eastern beliefs) do not consider it unethical, forgive me if I'm wrong but is there not a specific Bible passage about how God gave us pork and beef and whatnot? I think that alone would answer the whole point of this thread about you asking about whether it is ethical to eat meat from a Christian stand point.

I totally get where vegans are coming from though, in this industrial day and age a lot of people could easily just stop eating meat. We have grocery stores and mass-produced agriculture. We really could survive as a human race by just eating vegetables if we put our minds to it, in theory. I'm sure vegans realize this and see that animals are suffering and think "hey, that's not so good, I'm going to stop eating meat." I can see how they get frustrated when people don't reciprocate this so "obvious" train of thought because, killing is wrong, right?

It's mine and I think most other peoples personal opinion that eating meat is ok. Outside of mass-produced meat factories - which I think are depressing and actively try not to purchase animal products from - I don't think domesticated animals suffer at all really while being raised for food. On free-range farms they just spend their life doing what they do, like eating grass and what not, and then they are killed quickly at the end of their life to feed the billions of humans that exist. This is the way they have lived and we have lived for tens of thousands of years.

Just the killing of the animals is not an immoral act in my opinion, because it is not for an immoral cause. You're not just killing an animal, you're killing an animal to feed people. It's just the way of life, predator and prey and what not. I think if you don't let the animal suffer and you kill it swiftly so that it isn't in pain and you acknowledge God and/or the purpose you are killing the animal for, it is okay.

Overall, back to my original point about this not being worth fighting over. I don't think there is anything overwhelmingly unethical about either side, so it really really is just a matter of opinion and not about any objective ethical debate. Aside from factories that have mass-suffering.

I think we all just need to accept each other and everyone's opinions and choices. I think vegans should stop trying to guilt-trip people and people who eat meat need to stop trying to make vegans "revert."

P.S Hear me out on this last little tip. But, the conditions for killing an animal being ethical (in my opinion) described above; (no suffering during it's life, no pain during death, acknowledging the reason for killing the animal) are actually exactly what halal practices are. I'm not Muslim, and not eating pork and whatnot is not something I follow, but I always try to buy halal meat when I can just because of it being a lot more ethical and aligning with my personal opinion about what should be done. So, if you have a similar opinion to me, and didn't know that about halal meat, maybe you should look into it.

 

[RDKirk]

Many will continue to higher dimensions soon. Heaven you may call it. When that happens our compassion and awareness increase very much. My spiritual contact helped me to experience that and i cried and cried and cried.

Your "spiritual contact?"

 

[RDKirk]

I believe many religions have much in common when we dig deeper.
Perhaps Jesus ate meat. Perhaps not. It does not change the fact that eating meat is a very big risk compared to any possible theoretical reward.

There is no "perhaps." Scripture says it explicitly:

He said to them: Do you have any food? And they gave him a piece of BROILED FISH and some HONEY. And HE TOOK IT AND ATE IT in front of them. -- Luke 24

 

[RDKirk]

All you need to know is that the risk of killing other beings is way higher than not to kill. Really simple.

You never demonstrated there is a risk. And your "spiritual contact" does not count for Christians.

 

[RDKirk]

At some point in the future meat eating will become a luxury. We simply won't need it. it will be a hedonistic choice - sensation seeking. I believe that we're essentially there already (at least for a good swathe of the western world)

If we can agree that meat eating is not necessary for a great many people, then I think that we would both have to submit to the inevitable conclusion that it is morally wrong.

You made a fallacious leap from "at some point in the future" to "meat eating is not necessary."

 

[RDKirk]

Yes of course, dietary choices are personal choices, but only insofar as they don't have ethical consequences. It is somewhat ideological to describe veganism as only about food. It indicates that the sentience of the animals has been bracketed out of the equation. Modern science forces me to conclude that animals are sentient beings. I can't find a justification for killing them. It's not about food really. For me it's about advocating for their rights.

My belief is that animals are sentient enough for killing them to be unethical. I think it transcends dietary choice.

That does not require veganism, however. As I've said before, Jains practice a more consistent no-kill philosophy than vegans--they don't even kill the plants they eat--but they do eat eggs and drink milk, if they can ascertain that the animals were treated humanely.

 

[777GodLover777]

Sorry but you are wrong. First of all you can not know if all words are from God or if evil have managed to change words to hurt humans. And then there are different opinions on what it means.

You use the argument that we don't know what is right or wrong, and that all possible ways we might have of determining what is right and wrong are not reliable because it could have been corrupted by evil. So, you say that it is not worth the risk eating animals because it might just be evil but we have no idea that it's evil.

How do you know that you're not wrong? Through your logic, of course even you don't know what is evil and what is good. Even though you have a "spiritual contact" (whatever that means) because what if THAT was also corrupted by evil! What if evil is good and good is evil!!!!! Haha.

Anyways, it really is just a matter of opinion, once again. Some people eat meat because they think it's good and some people don't eat meat because they think it's good.

My point is, by your own logic that we really can't trust anything as humans to know what is good and what is evil, then why are you claiming to know? I'm not saying you're wrong. But, you do realize that you kind of seem like a hypocrite right now, yes? Your argument is that your answer is supported by the fact that we don't know the answer to anything, it doesn't make sense.

 

[777GodLover777]

That does not require veganism, however. As I've said before, Jains practice a more consistent no-kill philosophy than vegans--they don't even kill the plants they eat--but they do eat eggs and drink milk, if they can ascertain that the animals were treated humanely.

To piggyback off of what you said here, I think Jains are a lot more morally consistent than vegans. They both make the same point, that all killing is morally wrong (although, they usually have different ways of justifying why that is) so they don't kill anything or eat meat because it is a byproduct of killing.

Jains are much more consistent with this idea, to an incredibly strict degree. They (the monks) carry brooms around with them and sweep ahead of them when they walk, as to brush away any small creatures like insect and what have you that they may accidentally step on. They don't eat ANY non-plant life, that means they don't drink milk, eat eggs, and many don't even eat bread or drink beer because of the microscopic yeast in these that is alive. They also wear face masks out of the fear that the exhaling of their hot breath might harm microscopic life. (This applies to the monks, I'm sure it varies with the laypeople)

Vegans obviously don't follow these practices. But, if they were being morally consistent, why don't they? Maybe because tiny life is less intelligent, but where do you draw the line? Cows are less intelligent than humans, chickens less intelligent than cows, it's all life. Vegans really aren't being all that morally consistent, unlike Jain monks, if you think about it. If they were, I would probably be a lot less inclined to be argumentative about it, but that's just me.

I think humans just have to accept that life eats life, that's just how the world works. For us to exist other forms of life must die.

 

[Eftsoon]

That does not require veganism, however. As I've said before, Jains practice a more consistent no-kill philosophy than vegans--they don't even kill the plants they eat--but they do eat eggs and drink milk, if they can ascertain that the animals were treated humanely.

Why is Jainism relevant? Does it have any bearing on the argument that I have made?If Jains are superior morally, this doesn't invalidate the arguments that I have put forward. The arguments stand on their own merits.

 

[Eftsoon]

You made a fallacious leap from "at some point in the future" to "meat eating is not necessary."

At some point in the future it will be unecessary for everyone. At the moment it's unecessary for some. I have mentioned that there are people for whom veganism or vegetarianism isn't practical.

 

[Rajni]

To piggyback off of what you said here, I think Jains are a lot more morally consistent than vegans. They both make the same point, that all killing is morally wrong (although, they usually have different ways of justifying why that is) so they don't kill anything or eat meat because it is a byproduct of killing.

Jains are much more consistent with this idea, to an incredibly strict degree. They (the monks) carry brooms around with them and sweep ahead of them when they walk, as to brush away any small creatures like insect and what have you that they may accidentally step on. They don't eat ANY non-plant life, that means they don't drink milk, eat eggs, and many don't even eat bread or drink beer because of the microscopic yeast in these that is alive. They also wear face masks out of the fear that the exhaling of their hot breath might harm microscopic life. (This applies to the monks, I'm sure it varies with the laypeople)

Vegans obviously don't follow these practices. But, if they were being morally consistent, why don't they? Maybe because tiny life is less intelligent, but where do you draw the line? Cows are less intelligent than humans, chickens less intelligent than cows, it's all life. Vegans really aren't being all that morally consistent, unlike Jain monks, if you think about it. If they were, I would probably be a lot less inclined to be argumentative about it, but that's just me.

I think humans just have to accept that life eats life, that's just how the world works. For us to exist other forms of life must die.

Very good points.

 

[The happy Objectivist]

I do not understand why any Christian would eat meat. It is not like we need it for survival.
How can you be sure that evil forces have not been conspiring to destroy you by making you believe murder is ok? Why would anyone sane take that risk?

I used to eat murdered animals and are now trying to make people go vegetarian. Perhaps that can help pay for my past sins.

I hate to tell you this but a whole lot of animals get killed in the raising of plant crops. Habitats are destroyed but animals get directly killed during harvest. I've seen baby deer and prong horned Antilopes, baby foxes, rabbits, all manner of voles, and prairie dogs either killed by the swather or bailed up with the hay. I eat mostly a plant-based diet with occasional meat dishes. It's not murder. Is it murder when a lion kills a gazelle? How about when an Owl eats a mouse? I wouldn't call that murder but an animal living according to its nature. Human beings are no different. Whether we plow under a nest to prepare the field for a crop or shoot a deer and eat it, something must die for us to eat.

 

[The happy Objectivist]

---SE---

Yes it is selfish but not as most people define selfishness. It is selfish because we do it out of a concern for our own interest, in order to live. It's easy to be vegan when you have access to all the produce like we do here in America but it is elitist and snobbish to demand that the rest of the world adopt veganism. Yes we have a choice, some of us do at least, but there is nothing immoral about slaughtering animals to eat. Personally, I think everyone should slaughter their own meat, if they eat it, so that they know what all is involved. I can tell you when I go fishing, I never let anything go to waste because I know that I killed that animal, so I'm not just going to let it spoil and I eat all of it.

Now I have become a farmer of sorts because I like raising my own vegetables where I can control what goes into them. I make my own organic compost and fertilizer, I don't use any pesticides or chemicals, and I feed my soil so that it can feed my plants. I have created a whole living biosphere on my property that not only gives me the best possible food but feeds wildlife as well. Plus I provide lots of flowers for the birds and the bees. So I do have a choice to not use intensively farmed produce. I've seen what they do to the land in order to farm large scale and it is horrible. I live in the middle of it. Piles of chemicals, pesticides, fungicides and herbicides.

 

[Newwave]

I do not understand why any Christian would eat meat. It is not like we need it for survival.
How can you be sure that evil forces have not been conspiring to destroy you by making you believe murder is ok? Why would anyone sane take that risk?

I used to eat murdered animals and are now trying to make people go vegetarian. Perhaps that can help pay for my past sins.

I am curious, does it say anything about not eating meat in the Bible?

personally I eat meat a few times per week as it gives me protein and energy.

I admit a mostly plant based diet is optimal but I think you need SOME meat in your diet for vitality.

 

[LightBearer]

I am curious, does it say anything about not eating meat in the Bible?

personally I eat meat a few times per week as it gives me protein and energy.

I admit a mostly plant based diet is optimal but I think you need SOME meat in your diet for vitality.

It was not God's original purpose that Man eat meat. God originally gave Man a plant based diet.

Genesis 1:29 "Then God said: “Here I have given to you every seed-bearing plant that is on the entire earth and every tree with seed-bearing fruit. Let them serve as food for you."

After the fall and subsequently Man's pursuit of independence from God, things went downhill and the earth eventually became filled with violence.

The deluge/flood of Noah's day, which brought an end to that era, also brought about a drastic change of circumstances for Mankind whereby God stipulated a dietary change. Along with the plant based diet previously stipulated, the allowance was now made for the eating of meat.

Genesis 9:2,3 "A fear of you and a terror of you will continue upon every living creature of the earth and upon every flying creature of the heavens, upon everything that moves on the ground and upon all the fish of the sea. They are now given into your hand. Every moving animal that is alive may serve as food for you. Just as I gave you the green vegetation, I give them all to you."

God's original purpose by the word of his mouth has not changed. It was for Man to have a plant based diet. That original purpose will find certain fulfillment.

Isiah 55:11 "So my word that goes out of my mouth will be. It will not return to me without results, But it will certainly accomplish whatever is my delight, And it will have sure success in what I send it to do."

This, along with numerous other blessed changes for Mankind on this earth, such as: the elimination of crime, hunger, homelessness, natural disasters, wars and even sickness and death, will be accomplished under the Messianic "Kingdom of God", when it very soon rules as the sole government over the earth under the Kingship of Jesus Christ, the prince of peace.

Isiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Daniel 2:44 "“In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever,

Matt 6:9 "Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. Let your Kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also on earth."

Under God's kingdom, all causes of human suffering will soon cease.

Rev 21:2,3 "With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

LB

 

[Newwave]

It was not God's original purpose that Man eat meat. God originally gave Man a plant based diet.

Genesis 1:29 "Then God said: “Here I have given to you every seed-bearing plant that is on the entire earth and every tree with seed-bearing fruit. Let them serve as food for you."

After the fall and subsequently Man's pursuit of independence from God, things went downhill and the earth eventually became filled with violence.

The deluge/flood of Noah's day, which brought an end to that era, also brought about a drastic change of circumstances for Mankind whereby God stipulated a dietary change. Along with the plant based diet previously stipulated, the allowance was now made for the eating of meat.

Genesis 9:2,3 "A fear of you and a terror of you will continue upon every living creature of the earth and upon every flying creature of the heavens, upon everything that moves on the ground and upon all the fish of the sea. They are now given into your hand. Every moving animal that is alive may serve as food for you. Just as I gave you the green vegetation, I give them all to you."

God's original purpose by the word of his mouth has not changed. It was for Man to have a plant based diet. That original purpose will find certain fulfillment.

Isiah 55:11 "So my word that goes out of my mouth will be. It will not return to me without results, But it will certainly accomplish whatever is my delight, And it will have sure success in what I send it to do."

This, along with numerous other blessed changes for Mankind on this earth, such as: the elimination of crime, hunger, homelessness, natural disasters, wars and even sickness and death, will be accomplished under the Messianic "Kingdom of God", when it very soon rules as the sole government over the earth under the Kingship of Jesus Christ, the prince of peace.

Isiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Daniel 2:44 "“In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever,

Matt 6:9 "Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. Let your Kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also on earth."

Under God's kingdom, all causes of human suffering will soon cease.

Rev 21:2,3 "With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

LB

Lions eat meat.
Tigers eat meat.
Wolves eat meat.

why not humans? We are merely animals ourselves

 

[o_mlly]

Lions eat meat.
Tigers eat meat.
Wolves eat meat.

why not humans? We are merely animals ourselves

All animals are not alike.

Medical studies show that red meat consumption may cause chronic inflammations in humans. Neu5Gc is a common sialic acid type of sugar in mammals but not in humans. Humans have the very similar Neu6Gc sailic acid. Those who eat animal products, specifically the red meat and dairy products of red meat animals, can through metabolism generate the Neu5Gc sugars that coats the protein spikes on human cells. Our immune systems identify the "5Gc" as "not us" and attack. The "5Gc" is associated with cancers and other auto-immune type diseases in humans.
Association between Neu5Gc carbohydrate and serum antibodies against it provides the molecular link to cancer: French NutriNet-Santé study | BMC Medicine | Full Text

But you gotta die from something. I'd like mine medium rare, please.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I do not understand why any Christian would eat meat. It is not like we need it for survival.
How can you be sure that evil forces have not been conspiring to destroy you by making you believe murder is ok? Why would anyone sane take that risk?

I used to eat murdered animals and are now trying to make people go vegetarian. Perhaps that can help pay for my past sins.

Murder is the unlawful killing of someone. Here’s how we can be sure that evil forces are not trying to destroy us by telling us it’s ok to eat meat.

“And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth. The fear of you and the terror of you will be on every beast of the earth and on every bird of the sky; with everything that creeps on the ground, and all the fish of the sea, into your hand they are given. Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you, as I gave the green plant. Only you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭9:1-4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Newwave]

All animals are not alike.

Medical studies show that red meat consumption may cause chronic inflammations in humans. Neu5Gc is a common sialic acid type of sugar in mammals but not in humans. Humans have the very similar Neu6Gc sailic acid. Those who eat animal products, specifically the red meat and dairy products of red meat animals, can through metabolism generate the Neu5Gc sugars that coats the protein spikes on human cells. Our immune systems identify the "5Gc" as "not us" and attack. The "5Gc" is associated with cancers and other auto-immune type diseases in humans.
Association between Neu5Gc carbohydrate and serum antibodies against it provides the molecular link to cancer: French NutriNet-Santé study | BMC Medicine | Full Text

But you gotta die from something. I'd like mine medium rare, please.

I have read a number of studies and I agree that a mostly plant based diet is the way to go.

but I am not fully convinced that a zero meat diet is the answer. Most of the studies that have been done have to do with people excessive amounts of meat (as well as excessive junk foods). It doesn’t take into account the other things people are consuming along with meat.

most doctors say 3 or less servings of red meat per week. You can have more white chicken as it is healthier for you.

I think excessive meat is unhealthy but still believe you need some meat in your diet for protein/ optimal health.