Eastern vs Western Mindset

[dnc101]

... G-d did not write the Bible, men did. However we do have the Torah which was dictated to Moses from G-d to record for the people of Israel. ,,,

Another excellent post, Lulav- except for clarifying this:

God chose the Hebrew people to reveal Himself through. True, Hebrew men did "write" the TNK and B'rit Chadashah, and from an entirely Hebrew mindset; however they did so under the inspiration of the Ruach HaChodesh. So in effect there was only one author, despite the next thang:

There is much evidence that the Torah is a compilation of writings by several authors, according to my Study TNK. Different writing styles, different emphasis, different accounts of the same events, etc. I believe it was compiled under the direction of Moshe, and much of it may have been written by Moshe, but not all by a long shot. He was probably given instructions to do it by God on Mt. Sinai, but given the whole thing ... I can't see it.

But a LOT of good points in your post there!

Dan C

 

[Moriah Ruth 777]

Thank you very much DNC, GXG and Lulav for your wonderful view points.

Lulav, did not God inspire men to write His words? If so, do you not think that the word is God inspired? And if so do you not think that God really wrote the bible under His obedient servants? Just asking out of curiosity.

Visionary, I agree with your last statement.

GXG, I am currently reading "Manners & Customs in the Bible Lands" It is very insightful. However I would be interested in reading the books that you mentioned. I also will check with the videos that you shared when I have more time.

To All, I know there are different views and opinions here and I appreciate you sharing. However, I do not want any debating. There isn't yet but just letting you know that we can continue with this discussion in a godly manner and with respect for one another. So far you are all doing great. Many blessings to you.

Moriah Ruth

 

[Lulav]

Thank you very much DNC, GXG and Lulav for your wonderful view points.

Lulav, did not God inspire men to write His words? If so, do you not think that the word is God inspired? And if so do you not think that God really wrote the bible under His obedient servants? Just asking out of curiosity.

Moriah Ruth

Hi MR, I cannot answer for G-d. I know that others teach the word is G-d inspired, some say G-d breathed, some go so far as to say that since it is G-ds word that he has protected it supernaturally.

The problems arise when you study in depth, reading the work as a whole, not in bits and pieces you start to see problems. Especially in the 'NT' writings you see many inconsistencies and a lot of redaction's. Scribes wrote what they thought they meant, or if something contradicted (according to how they saw it) the teachings of the church they amended it to be in harmony, or so they thought.

If the Bible were perfectly every word that HaShem word through man then there would not be thousands of denominations all claiming they are the true Christianity. Not to mention the fact that Yeshua did not come to start a new religion, but to clean house and set things straight, for Israel.

Supersessionism comes into play as well to 'explain' certain passages, even going back to the 'OT' and claiming it means it's for Christians and not Jews!

There's more but that is why I believe as I do.

One more thing, after studying the prophets of the 'OT' you will realize that there is a certain formula that is followed when they received a word from G-d and direction as to what to right or what they were told to do.

Steve posted a thread with a link that will help to show what I mean about the interpretation and teaching of the NT that has gone on over the centuries, it's about the old and new wineskins.

Before reading it though tell me what your understanding about that parable is about? This may help to understand where we each are coming from.

 

[Avodat]

MR - a few things to remember:

When reading various materials you need to be aware that almost all writers write from a standard Christian viewpoint - even academics like Sandmel and Vermes (both Jews) who, rather blindly, appear to accept standard Christian supercessionist views when writing about the Christian scriptures; instead of correcting them they allow the reader to continue in his/her ignorance.

The 'problem' of apparent contradictions in the NT can be viewed in more than one way. We can read it as purely G_d's unadulterated word only in its original language, though we know that Paul openly admits that some advice he gave was from him, and not from G_d. For many apparent contradictions, it is not so much the original word that is in error but the translation of that original word (from / in Hebrew, Aramaic into Greek) and the baggage of the translator / scribe and the Church that has brought in greater error. We need to be fair and acknowledge that the writings were read and understood largely by people over many centuries who, with their restricted learning and resources (compared to ours today), did their very best to understand God's word in line with doctrines that were decided over the first few centuries. They got it wrong as many still do today - largely because of the baggage that they, and we, each carry. There are contradictions in the first part of The Book as well.

We can also look at a less than perfect set of letters that make up the latter part of The Book as an affirmation that it is really G_d's word. If the early Christians had set out to produce a brand new religion they would have gone to great pains to ensure that every word in this 'story', and every paragraph and page, was word perfect and it would all match up without any e rror whatsoever. The apparent errors in the original language that we see have occurred not by G_d's delivery of his word, but by scribal error and by each further translation down through two millennia, not surprisingly (ever tried translating from Aramaic / Hebrew into Greek - or each of those languages into every other language that has been found in the world up to this day?). We should also remember that the larger part of the NT is made up of letters from individuals to other groups of individuals giving halachic instruction on a variety of issues - each letter being a stand alone document dealing with, usually, questions asked by various groups of believers, each wanting to do the right thing and each wanting to know how to deal with the influx of Gentiles who were gripped by the fact of Yeshua haMashiach's ministry.

Lastly, especially with Paul, we need to stop and think very, very carefully who it is he is writing to - Gentiles or Jews, and why he is writing to them. Many Christians get hopelessly messed up in this area because they just assume he is always talking to, and about, Jews, correcting them and teaching them how to behave in times of worship and as congregations of mixed nationalities. In reality, most of the time he is writing to / about Gentiles in mixed (Messianic) congregations who were trying to bring their pagan influences into the purity of the worship of the Jews! Many of his apparent anti-women comments are better read as Paul writing to instruct Gentile women how to behave in the presence of the Almighty - the Jewish women would have known exactly how to behave because it was taught them from the day they were born. He also tells Gentile men how to behave in certain Jewish feast times etc etc.

 

[Moriah Ruth 777]

Dnc,

Thank you for explaining this. However there are a few questions that I have for you. Did not Paul speak among the Jews and GENTILES? Personally I believe that he spoke to both groups of people.

Also, are you saying that God's words is not inspired? However I do agree that the scribes may have misinterpreted or made mistakes while writing down what God was telling them. Only because they are human. But this is my thought.

Avodat, it is good to see you again. It has been a while and as I had stated earlier I had to take a break. Many blessings to you.

Moriah Ruth

 

[Moriah Ruth 777]

Lulav,

You have very good viewpoints. I must agree that the scribes may have made mistakes while writing down God's words. Or they may have misinterpreted His word incorrectly. However I do believe that God inspired His word to be known through the world.

As for the rest that you had shared, I am pondering on it. Many blessings to you.

Moriah Ruth

 

[visionary]

It is like this... God inspired man to write.... written text translated, interpreted, translated, redefined according to church doctrines, scraped if it didn't fit, translated, re-organized, etc.... man reading asks God to help him understand... God inspires this man to see the true meaning.. transforming the soul though the "Bible" in spite of the fact that it has gathered quite a bit of dust covering.

Transformed souls walking in His Word, see the inconsistencies learn the reason, and wipe the dust off, to see the truth, and in answer to prayer God brings forth older versions, resulting in re-investigations and the revealed changes. Like they say it is in the details that you have the biggest controversies, and where you see controversies you know that God and the devil are fighting over important pieces to the puzzle.

You will find that the studies that fascinate a lot of us here on MJ are the letter by letter "alpha" to "omega" studies or as we say... alef to tav. It is fascinating and brings out a lot of truth. You might also like to take a gander at one website study on the subject. The Hebrew Letters (excerpts) It just might wet your appetite to learn more in this direction. And Yes, there is dust there too, that must be cleared off. But it does have the hebrew mindset from which Paul was taught.

Once you get to understand the nuances of the individual letters, then study them as they are found in the Word. For example, Yeshua and the disciples kept pointing to the alef-tav .. so let's start there... VIDEOS on HOME page http://www.alephtavscriptures.com/ with a few more.

1. Introduction to the Aleph Tav Scriptures Pt 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGPmRtGk2XY
2. Introduction to the Aleph Tav Scriptures Pt 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JXwkmWhfUk
3. Aleph Tav in the Tanakh http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmwrRtz-klw
4. Aleph Tav in Creation Week http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--ym4K2RMW4
5. Aleph Tav in Sabbath and the Feast Days http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXqDCR9Ui00
6. Aleph Tav in ALL the Everlasting Covenants http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDg9UX9AGfg
7. Aleph Tav in the Sin Offering http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFztsE8Xr6A
8. The Yah-Head http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgpYNNvnUFQ
9. How the Aleph Tav Speaks to Us http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAnjA3f9h3U
10. Sanford Sabbath Testimony http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZMkx5PHmA0
11. The Zayin/Aleph/Tav in Scripture http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs5zexEPfz0
12. The Mem and the Bet/Aleph/Tav in Scripture http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUlPKEZANGs
13. EVERYTHING is EXTENSION of the ALEPH TAV http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtNMbc0yHOY
14. Restoration of the Aleph Tav http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWuDOb6l010

 

[Moriah Ruth 777]

Visionary,

Wow, you will have me here watching videos until the coming new year. Just kidding.

Thank you for the info. I agree with you.

Moriah Ruth

 

[mercy1061]

Mercy,

Why do you keep referring to Yeshua as being an ancient Jew? Yes He was Jewish, however I believe Him to be God, so really He is not ancient in my eyes. However I also understand there are groups who believe that Yeshua is not God. And that is fine, nor do I have an issue with that.

"Ancient" NOT outdated though in his thinking, he lived long before you and I were ever born.

John 3
4 Nakdimon said to him, “How can a grown man be ‘born’? Can he go back into his mother’s womb and be born a second time?” 5 Yeshua answered, “Yes, indeed, I tell you that unless a person is born from water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. 6 What is born from the flesh is flesh, and what is born from the Spirit is spirit.

Some of the things that you stated really had nothing to do with my question.

It has more to do with your question than you may observe.

You stated, "Western thought" has no altar; therefore they can never properly understand the bible. The western world seeks to build the temple without a "stone" altar or tentmakers. Pharisee Shaul was a tentmaker."

It is like playing a "video" basketball game; you never learn how to play the game of basketball in reality if you always play the computer. You will never learn how to dribble, shoot, exercise or practice for a real game. Those who only play basketball on the computer, only play sports in their imagination.

So are you saying that us Westerners do not understand the bible at all? If that is the case than the rest of us is lost cause.

Moriah Ruth

Learning properly how to play basketball require the athlete to step on the "court". Every court has a law that governs that court; it is the law of Moses or Torah that governs the bible. If you dishonor the Torah; you dishonor the bible.

 

[Moriah Ruth 777]

Ok then... That settles it...

 

[ContraMundum]

I think the Eastern vs Western thing is interesting but not terribly real in many respects, as even in ancient times the two realms influenced each other greatly and cultural crossover was very common. As such, I think there is more development and separation of the two world views after the collapse of the Roman Empire. Because of this I think modern purveyors of this dicotomy are a little off the mark. They are addressing paradigms that may or may not have any real influence on Biblical text or its interpretation, but can explain differences of interpretation of Biblical texts that happen much later in history. In other words, this dicotomy is more useful in Church history (historical theology) than Patristics or Biblical criticism.

It seems that modern teachers of this dicotomy are somewhat nihililstic about the Body of Messiah- eg. it has always been wrong about its doctrine and only understanding this dicotomy can unlock the "truth" and repristinate the Body. However, if it is proven that East vs. West is a much later paradigm than NT times then they are completely in error.

 

[visionary]

Exclusive theology, purity of Judaism against surrounding influences was not an unfought issue in Yeshua's time. Fences separating Jews and Gentiles were put into place to keep paganism out of the faith of Judaism, and to keep out Gentiles from entering and "polluting" it with Greek or roman philosophy and deities.

 

[Moriah Ruth 777]

Visionary,

So true.

Moriah Ruth

 

[Lulav]

I think the Eastern vs Western thing is interesting but not terribly real in many respects, as even in ancient times the two realms influenced each other greatly and cultural crossover was very common. As such, I think there is more development and separation of the two world views after the collapse of the Roman Empire. Because of this I think modern purveyors of this dicotomy are a little off the mark. They are addressing paradigms that may or may not have any real influence on Biblical text or its interpretation, but can explain differences of interpretation of Biblical texts that happen much later in history. In other words, this dicotomy is more useful in Church history (historical theology) than Patristics or Biblical criticism.

It seems that modern teachers of this dicotomy are somewhat nihililstic about the Body of Messiah- eg. it has always been wrong about its doctrine and only understanding this dicotomy can unlock the "truth" and repristinate the Body. However, if it is proven that East vs. West is a much later paradigm than NT times then they are completely in error.

I think you are right, we are only but looking back, but when studying the history of the church over the years and the great divide that started way back of keeping the Jews separate from Christianity unless they could be convinced to 'convert' has lead to the main cause of this division.

The early church taught to not have anything to do with anything 'Jewish' meaning of the bible, the things G-d told us to do. So what was left but for Hellenistic teaching and understanding?

 

[dnc101]

I think the Eastern vs Western thing is interesting but not terribly real in many respects, as even in ancient times the two realms influenced each other greatly and cultural crossover was very common.

I absolutely disagree. The "ancient" cultural influences occurred in captivity, which was still basically eastern, though pagan thought.

As such, I think there is more development and separation of the two world views after the collapse of the Roman Empire. Because of this I think modern purveyors of this dicotomy are a little off the mark.

They are addressing paradigms that may or may not have any real influence on Biblical text or its interpretation, but can explain differences of interpretation of Biblical texts that happen much later in history. In other words, this dicotomy is more useful in Church history (historical theology) than Patristics or Biblical criticism..

Well, that sounds real smart, but it is wrong. Jewish people in the Diaspora are heavily influenced by the cultures where they have settled. My wife is as German/English as she is Jewish- more when you consider she has completely renounced Judaism. Others I know are the same.

To say the cultural context has no bearing on the written Word is wrong on its' face. The study of the lives of those who lived and wrote the Bible has a direct relationship to how we should interpret it. It is the idea that we can interpret scripture as we see fit from our own cultural perspective that has led to so much misunderstanding, wrong thinking and outright damnation in the Christian churches today, Messianism included.

It seems that modern teachers of this dicotomy are somewhat about the Body of Messiah- eg. it has always been wrong about its doctrine and only understanding this dicotomy can unlock the "truth" and repristinate the Body. However, if it is proven that East vs. West is a much later paradigm than NT times then they are completely in error.

No, of course we should have no standard. That way we can interpret it how we want and make our own religion- but we're still going to get to heaven because we'll still call it Christianity ... riiiiight!

God chose one people through which to reveal Himself and His plan to redeem humanity. His Word must be seen through the eyes of those people at that time in order to accurately understand it. And their way of thinking was vastly different than ours. Even today, with 2000 yrs of cultural influences on the Jewish people, we still think differently. You just cannot ignore those differences and really understand the message.

Dan C

 

[Lulav]

I absolutely disagree. The "ancient" cultural influences occurred in captivity, which was still basically eastern, though pagan thought.

Well, that sounds real smart, but it is wrong. Jewish people in the Diaspora are heavily influenced by the cultures where they have settled. My wife is as German/English as she is Jewish- more when you consider she has completely renounced Judaism. Others I know are the same.

To say the cultural context has no bearing on the written Word is wrong on its' face. The study of the lives of those who lived and wrote the Bible has a direct relationship to how we should interpret it. It is the idea that we can interpret scripture as we see fit from our own cultural perspective that has led to so much misunderstanding, wrong thinking and outright damnation in the Christian churches today, Messianism included.

No, of course we should have no standard. That way we can interpret it how we want and make our own religion- but we're still going to get to heaven because we'll still call it Christianity ... riiiiight!

God chose one people through which to reveal Himself and His plan to redeem humanity. His Word must be seen through the eyes of those people at that time in order to accurately understand it. And their way of thinking was vastly different than ours. Even today, with 2000 yrs of cultural influences on the Jewish people, we still think differently. You just cannot ignore those differences and really understand the message.

Dan C

I think CM understands the message just fine. He is still Jewish, yet a Christian. More Messianic than most, yet supporting the church. I don't know if he eats Vegemite, but at least its kosher!

 

[dnc101]

I think CM understands the message just fine. He is still Jewish, yet a Christian. More Messianic than most, yet supporting the church. I don't know if he eats Vegemite, but at least its kosher!

That's not what he's saying here.

Dan C

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I think the Eastern vs Western thing is interesting but not terribly real in many respects, as even in ancient times the two realms influenced each other greatly and cultural crossover was very common. As such, I think there is more development and separation of the two world views after the collapse of the Roman Empire. Because of this I think modern purveyors of this dicotomy are a little off the mark. They are addressing paradigms that may or may not have any real influence on Biblical text or its interpretation, but can explain differences of interpretation of Biblical texts that happen much later in history. In other words, this dicotomy is more useful in Church history (historical theology) than Patristics or Biblical criticism.

It seems that modern teachers of this dicotomy are somewhat nihililstic about the Body of Messiah- eg. it has always been wrong about its doctrine and only understanding this dicotomy can unlock the "truth" and repristinate the Body. However, if it is proven that East vs. West is a much later paradigm than NT times then they are completely in error.

Good points

 

[Auhsey mehsab]

Great Topic as it boders me lately for few years maybe that will help you more
Ruth. Some of my foundings:

1) DOTancient-hebrewDOTorg
2)David Pawson degreecing the church- find in google
3)DOTseedofabrahamDOTnet


Shalom!! to all truth searchers BECAUSE when you search you WILL find
as it may not be what all follow or expect..

 

[visionary]

Great Topic as it boders me lately for few years maybe that will help you more
Ruth. Some of my foundings:

1) DOTancient-hebrewDOTorg
2)David Pawson degreecing the church- find in google
3)DOTseedofabrahamDOTnet


Shalom!! to all truth searchers BECAUSE when you search you WILL find
as it may not be what all follow or expect..

Let me post the links for you..

Ancient Hebrew Research Center - Home Page
David Pawson - De-greecing the Church
The Seed of Abraham

I posted this mainly for others, who are like you, looking for the truth.