Eastern Orthodox View of the Merits of Works

[stuart lawrence]

if actually checking Scripture and seeing your question that you claimed is clearly in Paul, only to check and see that what you are referencing is not in Paul is desperate, then I will be desperate.

what you are claiming as being so clear is not where you are saying it should be.

The conversation is over. It is impossible to seriously debate with people who either dont know, or are unwilling to state what they believe Is their righteousness before God

 

[ArmyMatt]

The conversation is over. It is impossible to seriously debate with people who either dont know, or are unwilling to state what they believe Is their righteousness before God

it doesn't help when the other refuses to answer a simple clarification question.

I will be here if you wanna let me know what you think.

 

[abacabb3]

No, why should I help you deflect from the fact EO church members refuse to affirm they accept what their righteousness is according to the bible.

In truth, your denomination is not being reflected well here at all, as any non EO people reading Thi thread should immediately acknowledge

I never attended an EO Church, my first time will be tomorrow. I presume you do not have a satisfactory answer that can withstand scrutiny. I just dont think you are being charitable here.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I never attended an EO Church, my first time will be tomorrow. I presume you do not have a satisfactory answer that can withstand scrutiny. I just dont think you are being charitable here.

When you go, why not ask the priest what your righteousness is before God, let me know what he states

 

[Christina C]

Perhaps Stuart is referring to Romans 3: 20-25? The words Righteousness before God are not found there, but I feel that it may be what is being referred to.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Perhaps Stuart is referring to Romans 3: 20-25? The words Righteousness before God are not found there, but I feel that it may be what is being referred to.

Dont be silly.
What is a christians righteousness before God is easily understood as to what it means.
Christians are called to be honest.
If they are in This debate, people would simply admit they have been reluctant to answer a simple question they well understood

 

[Christina C]

Dont be silly.
What is a christians righteousness before God is easily understood as to what it means.
Christians are called to be honest.
If they are in This debate, people would simply admit they have been reluctant to answer a simple question they well understood

Why are you telling me I am being silly?

 

[stuart lawrence]

Why are you telling me I am being silly?

Anyone who claims not to understand the question

What is a persons righteousness before God is being silly.

You said there was no such wording in the bible.
Are you really trying to tell me you did not clearly understand what the question was asking?

Honesty is important in the christian faith

 

[Christina C]

Anyone who claims not to understand the question

What is a persons righteousness before God is being silly.

You said there was no such wording in the bible.
Are you really trying to tell me you did not clearly understand what the question was asking?

Honesty is important in the christian faith

Firstly I didn't claim not to understand your question - I do understand it because I was an evangelical for many years.
Secondly I didn't say there was no such wording in the Bible - read again what I wrote. You earlier mentioned that Paul had spoken of a person's righteousness before God, I was pointing to a place where he spoke about righteousness.
Thirdly, if you are suggesting that I wasn't being honest, and I am not sure what I said that would have given you that idea, then you are mistaken.

 

[abacabb3]

When you go, why not ask the priest what your righteousness is before God, let me know what he states

How about you let us know what make sense to you? The first five pages of this thread hammers out all the distinctions. I personally don;t have more questions in that department.

 

[abacabb3]

Perhaps Stuart is referring to Romans 3: 20-25? The words Righteousness before God are not found there, but I feel that it may be what is being referred to.

He's being so obscure with what he wants to hear that I am coming to the conclusion that he is trying to prove something. Just what, we'll never know because he'll never say.

personally, I think I already gave the answer he wants to hear, "We are credited the righteousness of Jesus Christ." A reference to Rom 4:3. Ironically, this is not an answer explicitly from Scripture, but more of an inference. 2 Cor 5:21 makes clear that the righteousness of God comes to believers as a matter of union with Him.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Firstly I didn't claim not to understand your question - I do understand it because I was an evangelical for many years.
Secondly I didn't say there was no such wording in the Bible - read again what I wrote. You earlier mentioned that Paul had spoken of a person's righteousness before God, I was pointing to a place where he spoke about righteousness.
Thirdly, if you are suggesting that I wasn't being honest, and I am not sure what I said that would have given you that idea, then you are mistaken.

So, if you understand the question("as the others do of course)

Are you willing to state what you believe your righteousness Is before God?

 

[stuart lawrence]

But now a righteousness apart from law has been made known, to which the law and the prophets testify.
This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe
Rom3:21&22

For we maintain a man is justified/ righteous by faith apart from observing the law
Rom3:28

However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith Is credited as righteousness
David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works
Rom4:5&6

Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness for everyone who believeth
Rom10:4

We who are Jews by birth and not gentile sinners know That a man is not justified/ righteous by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ
Gal2:15&16

For it Is by grace you have been saved, through faith and This not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works so that no one can boast
Eph2:8&9

Not having a righteousness of my own That comes from the law but that which is through faith in Christ. The righteousness That comes from God and is by faith
Phil3:9

For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness That is by faith from FIRST TO LAST

Rom1:17

 

[Christina C]

So, if you understand the question("as the others do of course)

Are you willing to state what you believe your righteousness Is before God?

I think you are wrong - others here do not necessarily understand your question, at least not in the way you mean it, because you likely have a different understanding of terms such as righteousness, salvation and grace to them. It would be better to ask questions like what is the orthodox understanding of righteousness, or what is the orthodox understanding of salvation as a starting point. Then debate the answers. I think that Matt is asking you that (about righteousness) so that he can try and answer your question (apologies Matt if I have got that wrong).

There is a fundamental difference in the understanding of salvation and what we are saved from between Western and Eastern Christianity and, until you have an understanding of that difference, whether or not you agree with the Orthodox teachings, you will not understand why the question you pose cannot be given the simple answer you are seeking. You have shown elsewhere that you will not read anything that might assist you to understand (not necessarily to agree with) where others are coming from and how their understanding of righteousness, justification and grace might differ from the Western Christian view.

I do not need, nor want to state my understanding of what I believe my righteousness is before God because a) this is the forum for debating with the Orthodox an I am not Orthodox; b) I am honestly not sure that I could explain what I believe particularly well - which is an honest answer. The fact that I say this will possibly have you thinking or saying that I cannot therefore know that I am part of God's family, or that I cannot know that I am saved - I think you will think this because I know what I was taught when in various evangelical Churches and that is probably what I would have thought.

The canon of the Bible was put together by the early Church, so surely we should be interested in how they understood the words contained within it and how interpretations may have changed over time. You may agree with the changed interpretations, but you need to understand what others thought and then you may understand why the terms in your question need clarification before the question can be answered.

You won't read this, but the information below helps explain some of the differences.
God’s “Righteousness”

 

[Christina C]

But now a righteousness apart from law has been made known, to which the law and the prophets testify.
This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe
Rom3:21&22

For we maintain a man is justified/ righteous by faith apart from observing the law
Rom3:28

However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith Is credited as righteousness
David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works
Rom4:5&6

Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness for everyone who believeth
Rom10:4

We who are Jews by birth and not gentile sinners know That a man is not justified/ righteous by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ
Gal2:15&16

For it Is by grace you have been saved, through faith and This not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works so that no one can boast
Eph2:8&9

Not having a righteousness of my own That comes from the law but that which is through faith in Christ. The righteousness That comes from God and is by faith
Phil3:9

For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness That is by faith from FIRST TO LAST

Rom1:17

No one on here would disagree with any of the passages from the Bible that you quote! What do you understand by the word righteousness? What do you understand by "God's righteousness"? Do you interpret "faith" as "belief"? What do you understand by the word "justified"? What law do you think Paul is talking about?

 

[stuart lawrence]

I think you are wrong - others here do not necessarily understand your question, at least not in the way you mean it, because you likely have a different understanding of terms such as righteousness, salvation and grace to them. It would be better to ask questions like what is the orthodox understanding of righteousness, or what is the orthodox understanding of salvation as a starting point. Then debate the answers. I think that Matt is asking you that (about righteousness) so that he can try and answer your question (apologies Matt if I have got that wrong).

There is a fundamental difference in the understanding of salvation and what we are saved from between Western and Eastern Christianity and, until you have an understanding of that difference, whether or not you agree with the Orthodox teachings, you will not understand why the question you pose cannot be given the simple answer you are seeking. You have shown elsewhere that you will not read anything that might assist you to understand (not necessarily to agree with) where others are coming from and how their understanding of righteousness, justification and grace might differ from the Western Christian view.

I do not need, nor want to state my understanding of what I believe my righteousness is before God because a) this is the forum for debating with the Orthodox an I am not Orthodox; b) I am honestly not sure that I could explain what I believe particularly well - which is an honest answer. The fact that I say this will possibly have you thinking or saying that I cannot therefore know that I am part of God's family, or that I cannot know that I am saved - I think you will think this because I know what I was taught when in various evangelical Churches and that is probably what I would have thought.

The canon of the Bible was put together by the early Church, so surely we should be interested in how they understood the words contained within it and how interpretations may have changed over time. You may agree with the changed interpretations, but you need to understand what others thought and then you may understand why the terms in your question need clarification before the question can be answered.

You won't read this, but the information below helps explain some of the differences.
God’s “Righteousness”

The bible states the word righteousness many times. It states what your righteousness is.
So if you simply ask the question.

What is your righteousness, according to the bible, that cannot possibly be misunderstood.

I have never had the slightest desire to read of those referred to as church fathers.

It is my view, that the organised church which appeared two or three hundred years after first century Christianity was unrecognisable from NT Christianity.

The greatest power, and most rapid growth seen in the Christian church was before the emergence of the scholar and theologian not after

 

[stuart lawrence]

No one on here would disagree with any of the passages from the Bible that you quote! What do you understand by the word righteousness? What do you understand by "God's righteousness"? Do you interpret "faith" as "belief"? What do you understand by the word "justified"? What law do you think Paul is talking about?

When Paul states the christian is not righteous by observing the law he means ALL the OT law given at sanai.

Righteousness is what gives you rightstanding before God

 

[Christina C]

The bible states the word righteousness many times. It states what your righteousness is.
So if you simply ask the question.

What is your righteousness, according to the bible, that cannot possibly be misunderstood.

I have never had the slightest desire to read of those referred to as church fathers.

It is my view, that the organised church which appeared two or three hundred years after first century Christianity was unrecognisable from NT Christianity.

The greatest power, and most rapid growth seen in the Christian church was before the emergence of the scholar and theologian not after

Re your first point - again that is not what I said.

Re your second point - so, you think that Christians since the reformation have got it right? You do know that Protestant Christians don't all agree, which is why there are so many denominations. Also, some of the earliest Church fathers knew the Apostles and were taught by them.

Re your third point - how have you formed that view?

Re your fourth point - yes, it was rapid growth of the Orthodox Church.

But, I will bow out of this as, as before, this site is for debating an Orthodox Christian, which I am not.

 

[stuart lawrence]

So why do we not see the power today displayed as it was in the NT church?

Why does that time often seem something that was for that time in history, not now?

Has God changed?

Impossible

Has the Holy Spirit changed, who is Gods power on earth?

Impossible

Has the true message changed?

That message cannot change.

But has peoples perception of the true message changed?

Biblically speaking, signs, wonders and miracles were an endorsement of the truth being preached

 

[stuart lawrence]

Re your first point - again that is not what I said.

Re your second point - so, you think that Christians since the reformation have got it right? You do know that Protestant Christians don't all agree, which is why there are so many denominations. Also, some of the earliest Church fathers knew the Apostles and were taught by them.

Re your third point - how have you formed that view?

Re your fourth point - yes, it was rapid growth of the Orthodox Church.

But, I will bow out of this as, as before, this site is for debating an Orthodox Christian, which I am not.

The rapid growth was first century Christianity.
I would hardly call that what is now described as orthodox