Eastern Orthodox View of the Merits of Works

[stuart lawrence]

Oh, the young man.

If he were an Orthodox Christian, he would receive prayers that God would forgive him, encouragement perhaps of how to resist the tempting thoughts, and be told to go in peace. And when he felt overcome by lust again, he could return once again, receive the same assurance that God forgives, more advice if it is helpful, and on and on. It is a lifelong journey that we struggle against temptation.

The expectation would be that he not go out to bars and find a new woman every night to fornicate with. But if he did do that, and regretted it, he could come and receive prayers for forgiveness.

As for temptations to lust, some may struggle with it every day for the rest of their lives, I suppose. That wouldn't keep him out of the Church.

We don't judge people's salvation, so we don't say the person certainly will be saved or won't be saved. We just don't do that.

But struggle does not automatically mean a person is condemned - not at all.

There's a little parable I read ... let me see if I can find it and post it. It might illustrate better what I mean.

Actually, you may be surprised I you knew how many people who have made a commitment to Christ end up receiving counselling from Christian counsellors due to them simply becoming consumed by sin( rom ch7

People today, go to church and try to attain heaven as Saul the Pharisee tried to attain it, and they get the same result he got. It is tragic but true.

I cant think of anyone more suited to being chosen to be the chief exponent of the new covenant to the world than the person who had probably been the most ardent Pharisee of them all

 

[stuart lawrence]

Here is the story ...

Once there was a monk who lived in a monastery. He drank and got drunk every day and was the cause of scandal to the pilgrims. Eventually he died and this relieved some of the faithful who went on to tell the Elder that they were delighted that this huge problem was finally solved.

The Elder answered them that he knew about the death of the monk, because he had seen the entire battalion of angels who came to collect his soul.

The pilgrims were amazed and some of them protested and tried to explain to the Elder who they were talking about, thinking that the Elder did not understand.

The Elder explained to them: "I know who you you speak of. This particular monk was born in Asia Minor, shortly before the destruction by the Turks when they took away all the boys. So he would not be taken away, his parents would take him with them to the reaping, and so he wouldn't cry, they just put raki (a hard liquor) into his milk to make him sleep. Therefore he grew up as an alcoholic.

When he grew up, he found an elder and told him that he was an alcoholic, but wanted to be free. The elder gave him advice to do prostrations and prayers every night and to beg for help to reduce the drinking.

After a year he managed with struggle and repentance to make the 20 glasses he drank into 19 glasses. The struggle continued over the years and he eventually got down to 2-3 glasses, with which he would still get drunk."

The world for years saw an alcoholic monk who scandalized the pilgrims, but God saw a fighter who fought a long struggle to reduce his passion.

Without knowing what each one is trying to do what he wants to do, what right do we have to judge his effort?

-------------------
​

This is part of what I mean by not judging others, by "keeping our eyes on our own plate", and by understanding that we are all sinners. The young man struggling with lust, if he WANTS to please God, may certainly please Him, even if he doesn't completely overcome. We don't measure our "success". Only God judges, and thankfully, He is merciful!

Now, this again does not mean our efforts save us. But as I said, it's a seeming paradox, and difficult to illustrate EVERY truth in one story.

Everything - everything - comes by the power of God. In ourselves, we can do nothing. That is why we say that we cooperate, not that we ourselves accomplish.

That's a nice story

 

[~Anastasia~]

Actually, you may be surprised I you knew how many people who have made a commitment to Christ end up receiving counselling from Christian counsellors due to them simply becoming consumed by sin( rom ch7

People today, go to church and try to attain heaven as Saul the Pharisee tried to attain it, and they get the same result he got. It is tragic but true.

I cant think of anyone more suited to being chosen to be the chief exponent of the new covenant to the world than the person who had probably been the most ardent Pharisee of them all

You know, that's a great point of Saul/Paul being a most excellent spokesperson for what he teaches!

 

[~Anastasia~]

It's a difficult thing to learn to appreciate, much less explain to someone who isn't Orthodox.

The idea that we DO put our bodies in subjection and resist the devil, but at the same time, we trust fully in God and His mercy.

Now I can't remember where I read it, but I remember the gentle chiding in one book I read. The book was about spiritual warfare, fighting temptation, and all of that.

But it said that when you fall (not if, but when) that you shouldn't even get all that upset about it, as if some great calamity had happened. You should instead say to yourself, "what did I expect? I am but a man, and a sinner." Get back up, ask forgiveness, and ask God to make you stronger next time. Because to get offended at ourselves when we fail is a sort if pride, as though we couldn't fail, and indicates a trusting in our own selves.

That has always been one that has stayed with me. Pride in various forms is something I will probably ALWAYS struggle with, and it hit home for me. I did get upset at "failures" ... but then I realized that was because I didn't expect to make them, and how silly and self-righteous that was. Lord have mercy on me!

We know we are weak. Our only strength is in God. We trust in Him. And in the end, we trust Him to complete the good work He has begun in us. We can't do it ourselves, and it certainly needs doing, if we are going to be fitted to be in the Presence of God Himself for all eternity!

Glory to God in all things.

 

[stuart lawrence]

It's a difficult thing to learn to appreciate, much less explain to someone who isn't Orthodox.

The idea that we DO put our bodies in subjection and resist the devil, but at the same time, we trust fully in God and His mercy.

Now I can't remember where I read it, but I remember the gentle chiding in one book I read. The book was about spiritual warfare, fighting temptation, and all of that.

But it said that when you fall (not if, but when) that you shouldn't even get all that upset about it, as if some great calamity had happened. You should instead say to yourself, "what did I expect? I am but a man, and a sinner." Get back up, ask forgiveness, and ask God to make you stronger next time. Because to get offended at ourselves when we fail is a sort if pride, as though we couldn't fail, and indicates a trusting in our own selves.

That has always been one that has stayed with me. Pride in various forms is something I will probably ALWAYS struggle with, and it hit home for me. I did get upset at "failures" ... but then I realized that was because I didn't expect to make them, and how silly and self-righteous that was. Lord have mercy on me!

We know we are weak. Our only strength is in God. We trust in Him. And in the end, we trust Him to complete the good work He has begun in us. We can't do it ourselves, and it certainly needs doing, if we are going to be fitted to be in the Presence of God Himself for all eternity!

Glory to God in all things.

Good post.
We do have to ultimately trust in Gods unfailing love for us dont we? Isn't that the undercurrent/ heart of the biblical message?
Wasn't that the Pharisees problem?
They trusted in themselves to obey the letter that kills( for as you say we must offend it) by doing so they neglected the love of God( luke11:41)

Dont be too hard on yourself. I'm sure in one form or another we all suffer from pride

 

[ArmyMatt]

We do have to ultimately trust in Gods unfailing love for us dont we? Isn't that the undercurrent/ heart of the biblical message?
Wasn't that the Pharisees problem?
They trusted in themselves to obey the letter that kills( for as you say we must offend it) by doing so they neglected the love of God( luke11:41)

exactly, and what He saved and loves is the whole man (this is why He took on all of our human nature, and deified it). this is why as Orthodox we do not divide faith, works, and grace from our salvation.

 

[stuart lawrence]

exactly, and what He saved and loves is the whole man (this is why He took on all of our human nature, and deified it). this is why as Orthodox we do not divide faith, works, and grace from our salvation.

Now why did you have to mention works lol.
I've enjoyed reading many of your posts!

Grace and faith cannot be seperated.
For we are saved, by grace, through faith( eph2:8)

I love the way Charles Spurgeon put it:
We are saved by grace through the conduit of faith by which grace comes.

I guess we could swap scriptures concerning works for a while, but this is how I see it.
The works God desires are done out of love and gratitude for a free salvation. Not with a view they will better enable you to attain heaven/ salvation.

I know we see this differently, but its back to the child being raised by loving parents to me. Parents will discipline their children when they err, because they love them and they are part of their family. But would loving parents keep threatening to evict their children from the family home when they erred?

Does God love his children less than a loving parent loves their children?

 

[stuart lawrence]

In All of Grace
Charles Spurgeon pondered on:

If works are necessary to salvation, how many works must one do to be saved? No one seems to know the answer

 

[stuart lawrence]

Again I tell you. It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.
When the disciples heard this they were greatly astonished and asked: Who then can be saved?
Jesus looked at them and said:
With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible
Matt19:24-26

 

[~Anastasia~]

I'd rather have Matt answer you (he'd do so much a better job!) but "works" often seem to dredge up a knee-jerk reaction that we DO them in order to "earn" or "purchase" salvation somehow, but that absolutely isn't the way.

Tell you what, how do you understand what James said about faith without works being dead?

 

[stuart lawrence]

I'd rather have Matt answer you (he'd do so much a better job!) but "works" often seem to dredge up a knee-jerk reaction that we DO them in order to "earn" or "purchase" salvation somehow, but that absolutely isn't the way.

Tell you what, how do you understand what James said about faith without works being dead?

I think its fair to say James and Paul are coming at this from different angles( hope that's the right expression!!)

IE

You see that a person is justified by what he does, and not by faith alone
James 2:24

For we maintain a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law
Rom3:28

However, to the man who does mot work but trusts God, who justifies the wicked, his faith Is counted to him as righteousness.
David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness/ justification apart from works
Rom 4:5&6

But as to your question.

Suppose someone proffesses to accept Christ as their saviour. They are a drunk, beat their wife, swear like a trooper, and are a habitual thief.
God will accept them as they are, for as Paul tells us, we are made alive with Christ even when we are dead in transgressions / sin.
However, if no change takes place in the man, and he carries on with the exact same lifestyle over time, he was never born again in the first place, so he had dead faith as it were.
The evidence of saving faith will be seen, but you are not saved by works, rather faith. But your faith that has justified you will be evident by what follows

 

[stuart lawrence]

Or, your faith that has saved you will be seen to be justified by the change it brings

 

[stuart lawrence]

But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich In mercy made us alive with Christ, EVEN WHEN we were dead In transgression/ sin, it is by grace you have been saved
Eph2:5

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves, it Is the gift of God, not by works so that no one can boast
Eph2:8&9

 

[~Anastasia~]

Ok, fair enough. Thank you for the replies.

I should have really quoted ... sorry for my mistake. The part about being justified by works was not so much what I was getting at as "faith without works is dead".

We have already agreed that we do not "earn" our salvation in any way. So if you can put that thought away, because neither of us believe we can do that.

First let me say, and I think we've been over this? That Orthodox don't view salvation as a one-time event.

I understand you probably would describe it as salvation (at conversion), sanctification, and then at the end is the final judgement when the saved shall be resurrected into glorified bodies, and they will be like Christ?

We just view the whole thing as "salvation". I'm not sure there's really a functional difference. Except that we don't make any judgements for God. But a person who dies immediately after conversion can certain be judged by God as "saved" in the end. We don't say that he can't be. So except maybe in the case of some denominations which insist that they know the final end they will happen, we probably don't functionally disagree on the process.

We just tend to take a more inclusive view. And not only on this ... not only is what you would call sanctification and judgment a part of "salvation" in our terminology, but other things are wider too. The Incarnation is an important part and has important implications for us, not JUST the Crucifixion and resurrection. All of human history, from the creation of the cosmos to the life of the age to come, is intricately woven together into a great and wonderful story where each thread touches most or all of the others.

Ok ... so, if you can put yourself in that understanding and keep those things in mind (sorry, it seems relevant and helpful from my point of view) ...

Matt said grace, faith, and works. Works are NOT there because we partially (or wholly) work for or earn our salvation. But in a sense, they are a part of it. What we do - affects who we are.

Say that we sped time helping someone. We do it because we love God and are following His Commandments (if you love Me, you will follow my commandments). We do it because we are told to love others. We do it BECAUSE we love others. And while we are carrying out those tasks .... maybe if we sit with an elderly disabled person, feed them, wipe the food from their chin when it dribbles, and so on ... it is an act of love, and we are humbled by the realization of our dependence upon one another, and by the menial kinds of tasks we perform for another. That humility, in a tiny way, gets built into who we are, and changes us, just a little, by the grace of God. We become a little more like Christ. Which is ultimately, the best description for "salvation" in the end.

The next time, we give sacrificially to provide food for someone in real need, see their need, and have joy in meeting it, and even though we might have liked to spend that money on a new gadget or whatever, we see how it benefits someone in REAL need, and our desire for that gadget, our covetousness, becomes an embarrassment to us, and now instead of being slightly covetous, we are moved to being a bit more generous instead. Again, a little more like Christ. By the grace of God.

These little gifts come through faith. It is because of our faith that we willing do the works. And the works enliven our faith, and it is just that much more a LIVING faith, a faith which saves.

It's all connected. It all works together. We don't carve it up - here is faith, and over there is grace, and those are works. That wouldn't even make sense to us.

Am I managing to explain a little?

 

[stuart lawrence]

Ok, fair enough. Thank you for the replies.

I should have really quoted ... sorry for my mistake. The part about being justified by works was not so much what I was getting at as "faith without works is dead".

We have already agreed that we do not "earn" our salvation in any way. So if you can put that thought away, because neither of us believe we can do that.

First let me say, and I think we've been over this? That Orthodox don't view salvation as a one-time event.

I understand you probably would describe it as salvation (at conversion), sanctification, and then at the end is the final judgement when the saved shall be resurrected into glorified bodies, and they will be like Christ?

We just view the whole thing as "salvation". I'm not sure there's really a functional difference. Except that we don't make any judgements for God. But a person who dies immediately after conversion can certain be judged by God as "saved" in the end. We don't say that he can't be. So except maybe in the case of some denominations which insist that they know the final end they will happen, we probably don't functionally disagree on the process.

We just tend to take a more inclusive view. And not only on this ... not only is what you would call sanctification and judgment a part of "salvation" in our terminology, but other things are wider too. The Incarnation is an important part and has important implications for us, not JUST the Crucifixion and resurrection. All of human history, from the creation of the cosmos to the life of the age to come, is intricately woven together into a great and wonderful story where each thread touches most or all of the others.

Ok ... so, if you can put yourself in that understanding and keep those things in mind (sorry, it seems relevant and helpful from my point of view) ...

Matt said grace, faith, and works. Works are NOT there because we partially (or wholly) work for or earn our salvation. But in a sense, they are a part of it. What we do - affects who we are.

Say that we sped time helping someone. We do it because we love God and are following His Commandments (if you love Me, you will follow my commandments). We do it because we are told to love others. We do it BECAUSE we love others. And while we are carrying out those tasks .... maybe if we sit with an elderly disabled person, feed them, wipe the food from their chin when it dribbles, and so on ... it is an act of love, and we are humbled by the realization of our dependence upon one another, and by the menial kinds of tasks we perform for another. That humility, in a tiny way, gets built into who we are, and changes us, just a little, by the grace of God. We become a little more like Christ. Which is ultimately, the best description for "salvation" in the end.

The next time, we give sacrificially to provide food for someone in real need, see their need, and have joy in meeting it, and even though we might have liked to spend that money on a new gadget or whatever, we see how it benefits someone in REAL need, and our desire for that gadget, our covetousness, becomes an embarrassment to us, and now instead of being slightly covetous, we are moved to being a bit more generous instead. Again, a little more like Christ. By the grace of God.

These little gifts come through faith. It is because of our faith that we willing do the works. And the works enliven our faith, and it is just that much more a LIVING faith, a faith which saves.

It's all connected. It all works together. We don't carve it up - here is faith, and over there is grace, and those are works. That wouldn't even make sense to us.

Am I managing to explain a little?

Yes, I understand from your point of view.
However, Paul does tell the Ephesians:

For it is by grace, YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED, through faith, and this not of yourselves it us the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast
Eph2:8&9

So clearly, to Paul, a person is in a saved state, by grace, through faith, not with works

Pauls message makes no sense to the natural mind.
If you say you are saved without works/ observing the law, this immediately conjures up I the mind: That is a licence to sin, or sit on your backside and do nothing.
And yet, as far as Paul was concerned it was the key to the gospel, and the basis that would lead to Holy living.
But in fifty years of going to various churches, few seem to accept what he wrote.
A BUT always has to come in somewhere.
You have to know you are declared righteous / justified purely by faith in Christ, not inclusive of works/ observing the law, in order to live a truly holy life for God.
As I said, , it makes no sense to man, so people strain, whichever way they can to add works/ observing the law to be justified/ righteous/ accepted by God

 

[stuart lawrence]

Ok, fair enough. Thank you for the replies.

I should have really quoted ... sorry for my mistake. The part about being justified by works was not so much what I was getting at as "faith without works is dead".

We have already agreed that we do not "earn" our salvation in any way. So if you can put that thought away, because neither of us believe we can do that.

First let me say, and I think we've been over this? That Orthodox don't view salvation as a one-time event.

I understand you probably would describe it as salvation (at conversion), sanctification, and then at the end is the final judgement when the saved shall be resurrected into glorified bodies, and they will be like Christ?

We just view the whole thing as "salvation". I'm not sure there's really a functional difference. Except that we don't make any judgements for God. But a person who dies immediately after conversion can certain be judged by God as "saved" in the end. We don't say that he can't be. So except maybe in the case of some denominations which insist that they know the final end they will happen, we probably don't functionally disagree on the process.

We just tend to take a more inclusive view. And not only on this ... not only is what you would call sanctification and judgment a part of "salvation" in our terminology, but other things are wider too. The Incarnation is an important part and has important implications for us, not JUST the Crucifixion and resurrection. All of human history, from the creation of the cosmos to the life of the age to come, is intricately woven together into a great and wonderful story where each thread touches most or all of the others.

Ok ... so, if you can put yourself in that understanding and keep those things in mind (sorry, it seems relevant and helpful from my point of view) ...

Matt said grace, faith, and works. Works are NOT there because we partially (or wholly) work for or earn our salvation. But in a sense, they are a part of it. What we do - affects who we are.

Say that we sped time helping someone. We do it because we love God and are following His Commandments (if you love Me, you will follow my commandments). We do it because we are told to love others. We do it BECAUSE we love others. And while we are carrying out those tasks .... maybe if we sit with an elderly disabled person, feed them, wipe the food from their chin when it dribbles, and so on ... it is an act of love, and we are humbled by the realization of our dependence upon one another, and by the menial kinds of tasks we perform for another. That humility, in a tiny way, gets built into who we are, and changes us, just a little, by the grace of God. We become a little more like Christ. Which is ultimately, the best description for "salvation" in the end.

The next time, we give sacrificially to provide food for someone in real need, see their need, and have joy in meeting it, and even though we might have liked to spend that money on a new gadget or whatever, we see how it benefits someone in REAL need, and our desire for that gadget, our covetousness, becomes an embarrassment to us, and now instead of being slightly covetous, we are moved to being a bit more generous instead. Again, a little more like Christ. By the grace of God.

These little gifts come through faith. It is because of our faith that we willing do the works. And the works enliven our faith, and it is just that much more a LIVING faith, a faith which saves.

It's all connected. It all works together. We don't carve it up - here is faith, and over there is grace, and those are works. That wouldn't even make sense to us.

Am I managing to explain a little?

When I was ten I was born again. The reason I know I was born again, is because, even at that age I became aware of my sin. I was fully convinced salvation/ entering heaven hinged on works/ observing the law.
Over the next five years I became consumed by sin and feared hell when I died. Plus I was wracked with guilt and shame.
I gave up going to church, for i could not observe the law/ had no works.
Fortunately for me God was gracious. At the age of nineteen he opened my eyes to grace. I dared to believe I could be a christian after all for my justification before God was Christ, not me observing the law/ works.
But what of the sin? I didn't want it for I had made a commitment to Christ.
There was a particular sin That i had been a slave to for years, it involved breaking one of the TC.
I got down on my knees, asked God to deal with it and left it in his hands. For the next few days, I broke the Ten commandments frequently due to this particular sin. But for the first Time in my life, I would not let myself feel condemnation. I was saved because Christ was my right standing before God. I stood on Paul's message. I was saved/ accepted/ justified apart from works/ observing the law. And I stood on This even while i was blatantly breaking one of the TC.
After four days of this, the sin I had been a slave to for years stopped!

Paul wrote:

For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law but under grace
Rom6:14.

It truly is the greatest message ever preached since Christ walked This earth. The message Paul preached.
Sadly too few accept it

 

[ArmyMatt]

If works are necessary to salvation, how many works must one do to be saved? No one seems to know the answer

it's not a quantifiable thing, since God is infinite we can always do more out of love. the problem is reject works is to reject the words of Christ Himself. He commands us to do good works. works do not earn us anything, but good works does deepen faith, just like how true faith inspires good works. and the only reason any of us can do any of this is by God's grace.

I know we see this differently, but its back to the child being raised by loving parents to me. Parents will discipline their children when they err, because they love them and they are part of their family. But would loving parents keep threatening to evict their children from the family home when they erred?

exactly, when you love someone you do good, which is a work. parents disciplining a child is a good work if done out of love. a parent would also not be loving if they never did anything to or for their children. the words love and good, imply relationship and activity. so works are a part of our salvation, yet are for nought if we don't have faith or God's grace.

Scripture never sets works and grace against each other, in some kind of either/or, but both are commanded by the Lord.

 

[stuart lawrence]

it's not a quantifiable thing, since God is infinite we can always do more out of love. the problem is reject works is to reject the words of Christ Himself. He commands us to do good works. works do not earn us anything, but good works does deepen faith, just like how true faith inspires good works. and the only reason any of us can do any of this is by God's grace.



exactly, when you love someone you do good, which is a work. parents disciplining a child is a good work if done out of love. a parent would also not be loving if they never did anything to or for their children. the words love and good, imply relationship and activity. so works are a part of our salvation, yet are for nought if we don't have faith or God's grace.

Scripture never sets works and grace against each other, in some kind of either/or, but both are commanded by the Lord.

Have you read all the recent posts?

Definitely grace is not opposed to works.

But Paul's gospel hinges on being justified/ saved apart from works, in order to live a Godly life

 

[ArmyMatt]

Have you read all the recent posts?

some of them, I have had a pretty fried noggin

But Paul's gospel hinges on being justified/ saved apart from works, in order to live a Godly life

that's not all St Paul says though.

 

[stuart lawrence]

some of them, I have had a pretty fried noggin



that's not all St Paul says though.

Absolutely not!

But the spiritual principal is:

You are saved/ declared righteous/ justified by faith apart from works.

Then:

For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law but under grace
Rom6:14

However, tie in works to being justified /saved and you err from Paul's gospel message.

Anyways it is late here, must turn in.
As you were not on line I've chatted to Anastasia about this