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We can only become divine (theosis) through participation with the divine (God's energies). It cannot be accomplished through something which is itself created and not divine.what is the importance of this vis a vis the EO and RCC views of justification?
I found this article that speaks of the brief time the Greek Orthodox devolved into the practice of selling indulgences, which the author says is the result of Latinization in the Church due to Muslim domination (and the Greeks being propagandized by Rome.) It includes Dositheus with this group. I would be very interested in your view when you have the time:not knowing enough I can say maybe. even some saints have been wrong, and he absolutely could be speaking in a way that folks take out of context.
So, it's not a work because works are created, and God is uncreated, ingenerate, and uncontinent?We can only become divine (theosis) through participation with the divine (God's energies). It cannot be accomplished through something which is itself created and not divine.
I found this article that speaks of the brief time the Greek Orthodox devolved into the practice of selling indulgences, which the author says is the result of Latinization in the Church due to Muslim domination (and the Greeks being propagandized by Rome.) It includes Dositheus with this group. I would be very interested in your view when you have the time:
I will check it out, because that could be. wrong belief springs up from time to time. I was checking too and he was the patriarch who took on the very Calvinist Confession attributed to St Cyril Lukaris, which explains the more Roman language. Cyril was very anti-Rome and especially anti-Uniate.
In 1672 the Council of Bethlehem/Jerusalem endorsed the Confession of Faith written by Patriarch Dositheos of Jerusalem (r. 1669–1707), which he drew up as a point-by-point refutation of Lukaris’s creed. Unfortunately, this confession also reflects the typical tendency among Orthodox theologians in these years to use Protestant arguments against Roman Catholicism and Catholic arguments against Protestantism. Its last eight chapters are heavily influenced by Roman Catholicism.
I'm not sure I understand your question. I'm only responding to the distinction between the Catholic understanding of grace (created) and the Orthodox (uncreated).So, it's not a work because works are created, and God is uncreated, ingenerate, and uncontinent?
Is the treasury a reference to the preciousness of Christ or that of the RC treasury of merits ?
I am still not clear on the importance of the differentation and how it relates to God's grace operating in man, and God rewarding man for doing good.I'm not sure I understand your question. I'm only responding to the distinction between the Catholic understanding of grace (created) and the Orthodox (uncreated).
I am still not clear on the importance of the differentation and how it relates to God's grace operating in man, and God rewarding man for doing good.
I suppose I have an objection to the idea that salvation is earned when it is a matter of grace. But, I will have to worship with the Orthodox in order to turly learn these things. But I am a reader, and a writer, so I like to talk out a lot of my understandings and test them. Perhaps too "Western" but it is hard to undo 31 years of programming.Is this a case of the more Western desire to have everything spelled out perfectly, vs the more Eastern experience of going about spiritual life and it all fits together and "works"? I have trouble articulating and explaining things sometimes, and maybe we don't always ... but when you've experienced a thing, you know it better?
But I did come into it wanting every little thing explained.
Maybe I'm wrong. I'm following with interest and NOT trying to shut down discussion. But I wonder, looking back at my own questions and experience, if that's a factor?
I suppose I have an objection to the idea that salvation is earned when it is a matter of grace. But, I will have to worship with the Orthodox in order to turly learn these things. But I am a reader, and a writer, so I like to talk out a lot of my understandings and test them. Perhaps too "Western" but it is hard to undo 31 years of programming.
I suppose I have an objection to the idea that salvation is earned when it is a matter of grace.
I read somewhere that works teach us and mold our mind, making us more faithful. In short, just like the practices of the ascetic, they hone our faith in this life.
<table>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Orthodoxy</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Roman Catholicism</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Protestantism</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Atonement</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Recapitulation</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Satisfaction</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Penal Substitution</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Righteousness</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Imparted</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Infused</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Imputed</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Justification Upon Conversion</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">By faith alone</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">By faith alone</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">By faith alone</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Justification after conversion</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Must have works</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Must have works</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A--Justification is an one time event</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Sanctification</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A--Part of justification, being made righteous/just is the same as being transformed into the likeness of Christ</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A--Similar to Orthodoxy, accrual of merits needed for salvation takes place</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Includes works, theoretically a linear process but usually has peaks and valleys, no bearing on justification</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Merits</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Inconsequential to salvation or justification, salvation is not earned--the question of how sins of varying degrees which are left unrepented of is unanswered</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Necessary to accrue to satisfy God’s justice in light of post-baptismal sin, salvation is in part recompense for works--any demerits must be corrected in Purgatory to satisfy God’s justice and make man holy for heaven</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Accrued by Christ and satisfies God’s justice, salvation is recompense for Christ’s work--purgatory unnecessary</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Treasury of Merits</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Merits of saints can be acquired by the believer and in so doing satisfy God’s justice</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A--Closest analogue is that Christ is this treasury</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Works</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Accomplished by the grace of God without violating the free will of man</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Accomplished by the grace of God without violating the free will of man</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Accomplished by the grace of God without violating the free will of man</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Efficacy of Works</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Proves that faith is real, increases reward in heaven, improve faith, forgives sins</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Proves that faith is real, increases reward in heaven, improve faith, forgives sins, in part earns salvation as recompense from God</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Proves that faith is real, increases reward in heaven, forgives sin (baptism among Lutherans and Anglicans) </span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Works and Salvation</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Those who are saved must perform good works, but salvation is not a reward for works in any degree</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Those who are saved must perform good works, salvation is in part recompense for works</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">No bearing on salvation, but they evidence saving faith and improve one’s lot in heaven</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Grace</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Uncreated, it is man’s literal participation with divinity</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Created, sanctifying grace is an effect wrought by God on the believer’s soul</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A, the state of the believer’s soul is judicially decided by God, grace is merely a reference to God’s dispositions and actions</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Judgement</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Good rewarded, evil punished--both in varying degrees according to works wrought in the body</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Good rewarded, evil punished--both in varying degrees according to works wrought in the body</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Good rewarded, evil punished--both in varying degrees according to works wrought in the body</span></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Salvation</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Can be forfeited</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Can be forfeited</span></td>
<td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Depends on group. Reformed assert that all of those who are justified can never be lost. Others believe that salvation can be forfeited.</span></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>I know Anastasia might not like this, but it helps me to attempt formulating things. I took the effort to compare and contrast Eastern Orthodox soteriology against Catholic and Protestant soteriology. I trying to be as accurate as possible presenting each side. Can someone here let me know if I misrepresented Eastern Orthodoxy in any way?
Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant Soteriology Compared and Contrasted
I cannot get the following table to work, but it works in the above.
Code:<table> <tbody> <tr> <td></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Orthodoxy</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Roman Catholicism</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Protestantism</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Atonement</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Recapitulation</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Satisfaction</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Penal Substitution</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Righteousness</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Imparted</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Infused</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Imputed</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Justification Upon Conversion</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">By faith alone</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">By faith alone</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">By faith alone</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Justification after conversion</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Must have works</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Must have works</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A--Justification is an one time event</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Sanctification</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A--Part of justification, being made righteous/just is the same as being transformed into the likeness of Christ</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A--Similar to Orthodoxy, accrual of merits needed for salvation takes place</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Includes works, theoretically a linear process but usually has peaks and valleys, no bearing on justification</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Merits</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Inconsequential to salvation or justification, salvation is not earned--the question of how sins of varying degrees which are left unrepented of is unanswered</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Necessary to accrue to satisfy God’s justice in light of post-baptismal sin, salvation is in part recompense for works--any demerits must be corrected in Purgatory to satisfy God’s justice and make man holy for heaven</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Accrued by Christ and satisfies God’s justice, salvation is recompense for Christ’s work--purgatory unnecessary</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Treasury of Merits</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Merits of saints can be acquired by the believer and in so doing satisfy God’s justice</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A--Closest analogue is that Christ is this treasury</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Works</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Accomplished by the grace of God without violating the free will of man</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Accomplished by the grace of God without violating the free will of man</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Accomplished by the grace of God without violating the free will of man</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Efficacy of Works</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Proves that faith is real, increases reward in heaven, improve faith, forgives sins</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Proves that faith is real, increases reward in heaven, improve faith, forgives sins, in part earns salvation as recompense from God</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Proves that faith is real, increases reward in heaven, forgives sin (baptism among Lutherans and Anglicans) </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Works and Salvation</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Those who are saved must perform good works, but salvation is not a reward for works in any degree</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Those who are saved must perform good works, salvation is in part recompense for works</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">No bearing on salvation, but they evidence saving faith and improve one’s lot in heaven</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Grace</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Uncreated, it is man’s literal participation with divinity</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Created, sanctifying grace is an effect wrought by God on the believer’s soul</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A, the state of the believer’s soul is judicially decided by God, grace is merely a reference to God’s dispositions and actions</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Judgement</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Good rewarded, evil punished--both in varying degrees according to works wrought in the body</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Good rewarded, evil punished--both in varying degrees according to works wrought in the body</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Good rewarded, evil punished--both in varying degrees according to works wrought in the body</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Salvation</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Can be forfeited</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Can be forfeited</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Depends on group. Reformed assert that all of those who are justified can never be lost. Others believe that salvation can be forfeited.</span></td> </tr> </tbody> </table>
I know Anastasia might not like this, but it helps me to attempt formulating things. I took the effort to compare and contrast Eastern Orthodox soteriology against Catholic and Protestant soteriology. I trying to be as accurate as possible presenting each side. Can someone here let me know if I misrepresented Eastern Orthodoxy in any way?
Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant Soteriology Compared and Contrasted
I cannot get the following table to work, but it works in the above.
Code:<table> <tbody> <tr> <td></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Orthodoxy</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Roman Catholicism</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Protestantism</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Atonement</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Recapitulation</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Satisfaction</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Penal Substitution</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Righteousness</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Imparted</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Infused</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Imputed</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Justification Upon Conversion</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">By faith alone</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">By faith alone</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">By faith alone</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Justification after conversion</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Must have works</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Must have works</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A--Justification is an one time event</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Sanctification</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A--Part of justification, being made righteous/just is the same as being transformed into the likeness of Christ</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A--Similar to Orthodoxy, accrual of merits needed for salvation takes place</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Includes works, theoretically a linear process but usually has peaks and valleys, no bearing on justification</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Merits</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Inconsequential to salvation or justification, salvation is not earned--the question of how sins of varying degrees which are left unrepented of is unanswered</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Necessary to accrue to satisfy God’s justice in light of post-baptismal sin, salvation is in part recompense for works--any demerits must be corrected in Purgatory to satisfy God’s justice and make man holy for heaven</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Accrued by Christ and satisfies God’s justice, salvation is recompense for Christ’s work--purgatory unnecessary</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Treasury of Merits</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Merits of saints can be acquired by the believer and in so doing satisfy God’s justice</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A--Closest analogue is that Christ is this treasury</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Works</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Accomplished by the grace of God without violating the free will of man</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Accomplished by the grace of God without violating the free will of man</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Accomplished by the grace of God without violating the free will of man</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Efficacy of Works</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Proves that faith is real, increases reward in heaven, improve faith, forgives sins</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Proves that faith is real, increases reward in heaven, improve faith, forgives sins, in part earns salvation as recompense from God</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Proves that faith is real, increases reward in heaven, forgives sin (baptism among Lutherans and Anglicans) </span></td> </tr> <tr> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Works and Salvation</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Those who are saved must perform good works, but salvation is not a reward for works in any degree</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Those who are saved must perform good works, salvation is in part recompense for works</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">No bearing on salvation, but they evidence saving faith and improve one’s lot in heaven</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Grace</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Uncreated, it is man’s literal participation with divinity</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Created, sanctifying grace is an effect wrought by God on the believer’s soul</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">N/A, the state of the believer’s soul is judicially decided by God, grace is merely a reference to God’s dispositions and actions</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Judgement</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Good rewarded, evil punished--both in varying degrees according to works wrought in the body</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Good rewarded, evil punished--both in varying degrees according to works wrought in the body</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Good rewarded, evil punished--both in varying degrees according to works wrought in the body</span></td> </tr> <tr> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Salvation</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Can be forfeited</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Can be forfeited</span></td> <td><span style="font-weight: 400;">Depends on group. Reformed assert that all of those who are justified can never be lost. Others believe that salvation can be forfeited.</span></td> </tr> </tbody> </table>
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