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yes, and I agree, but that is not all that St Paul says. he does say works play a part in our salvation.
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You are saved/ declared righteous/ justified by faith apart from works.
When I was ten I was born again. The reason I know I was born again, is because, even at that age I became aware of my sin. I was fully convinced salvation/ entering heaven hinged on works/ observing the law.
Over the next five years I became consumed by sin and feared hell when I died. Plus I was wracked with guilt and shame.
I gave up going to church, for i could not observe the law/ had no works.
Fortunately for me God was gracious. At the age of nineteen he opened my eyes to grace. I dared to believe I could be a christian after all for my justification before God was Christ, not me observing the law/ works.
But what of the sin? I didn't want it for I had made a commitment to Christ.
There was a particular sin That i had been a slave to for years, it involved breaking one of the TC.
I got down on my knees, asked God to deal with it and left it in his hands. For the next few days, I broke the Ten commandments frequently due to this particular sin. But for the first Time in my life, I would not let myself feel condemnation. I was saved because Christ was my right standing before God. I stood on Paul's message. I was saved/ accepted/ justified apart from works/ observing the law. And I stood on This even while i was blatantly breaking one of the TC.
After four days of this, the sin I had been a slave to for years stopped!
Paul wrote:
For sin shall no longer be your master for you are not under law but under grace
Rom6:14.
It truly is the greatest message ever preached since Christ walked This earth. The message Paul preached.
Sadly too few accept it
Paul is emphatic, being in a saved state I APART from works.yes, and I agree, but that is not all that St Paul says. he does say works play a part in our salvation.
I firmly believe grace is the fact Christ paid for my sins.I'm sorry you were in something pretty close to despair, and thankfully God is good and brought you out of that.
I agree that sin is not to be our master. And I can't speak for how this variously plays out in anyone else's life.
Let's just say that I would not be surprised if a person could be confessing their sins on a regular basis and never have to admit that they struggle with one of the Ten Commandments.
Of course, I also wouldn't be surprised if someone else might find that they had to continually confess one of them of a "mental" type ... perhaps covetous thoughts, or lustful thoughts, might plague someone for a while. Cultivating purity of the mind tends to be more difficult than overcoming sinful acts.
But the idea of fearing rejection by God because one has committed a sin - that implies a kind of sliding in and out of salvation that I used to be under at some denominations I have been associated with. It is also an implication that we are "earning" our salvation, and we reject that. It just isn't the right way of looking at it.
That's not the same thing as saying that the way we live has an effect on our faith, which is bottom line the role of "works" in regard to faith and grace.
Remember too that we don't define "grace" in terms of some kind of commodity with which God "pays for" our sins, or purchases our salvation. Grace is the energy of God Himself, it is Him working in our lives.
It really is almost that we speak a different language. Maybe there is some benefit to those words we don't translate (there are a few) ... I'm starting to think maybe it would be better in discussions with non-Orthodox if "grace" was one of those words -- but then we would probably be accused by some of denying grace altogether.
Are you referencing that "faith working through love," (Gal 5:6) that it has a dynamic, living, reality and not a mere matter of opinion?yes, and I agree, but that is not all that St Paul says. he does say works play a part in our salvation.
Paul is emphatic, being in a saved state I APART from works.
Justification before God is APART from works.
Righteousness is apart from works
You don't receive the holy spirit by observing the law/ works, but by believing what you heard.
I can only repeat. To the natural mind of man such belief is a licence to sin, a licence to sit on your backside and do nothing. Therefore, man has to attach, in one form or another, works/ observing the law to being in a saved state / salvation/ justified/ righteous before God.
Are you referencing that "faith working through love," (Gal 5:6) that it has a dynamic, living, reality and not a mere matter of opinion?
It is a hard thing for most to accept. For man is conditions to believe you get what you strive for by your effort.and St Paul also points out that good works flow from right faith. he commands us to work out our salvation with fear and great trembling, and calls other Christians his coworkers.
and that we were created for good works. you nailed it about faith being a living, dynamic reality of relationship.
Salvation/ acceptance/ justification before God is by faith, APART from works. But true saving faith brings forth fruit.
Many, then focus on the fruit and says works are therefore necessary to being saved. This is in conflict with numerous statements of Paul's.
For whoever keeps the whole law, yet stumbles at JUST ONE POINT is guilty of breaking all of it
The only way you can avoid stumbling at just one point is if you have achieved sinless perfection.
So spiritually speaking, it is sinless perfection or you stand guilty of breaking the entire law
Yes, we were saved by grace through faith for works. To quote my Orthodox Study Bible on Eph 2:8-10-- "[G]ood works flow out of authentic faith. Works cannot earn us this great treasure--it is a pure gift--but those who receive the gift do good. We are not saved by good works, but for good works" (p.1600, emphasis in original).
We cannot speak of salvation or justification without works, because faith HAS works.* I think in all of this Protestants get so hung up on the moment we are initially justified before God, they forget that their justification and faith is an ongoing reality.
To use an example, I was married on June 9, 2012 but I am still part of a marriage. My marriage is not simply a past event in a moment of time, but a continuing reality. The Scripture says, "if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin" (1 John 1:7). Our cleansing from sin is not merely a past reality, but it is ongoing if we continue to walk with Christ.
Matt, I am coming out of Protestantism, so if I am getting something wrong here I would seriously appreciate your insight. I would also appreciate your insight on Chrysostom's comments above
*This excludes extreme circumstances such as deathbed conversions.
Stuart, it may help if you read my comments with Matt on this thread. I am just beginning conversion (I presume it takes a couple of years) so I still speak Protestantese. You may object less to Orthodox theology worded in the language we both speakIt is a hard thing for most to accept. For man is conditions to believe you get what you strive for by your effort.
Salvation/ acceptance/ justification before God is by faith, APART from works. But true saving faith brings forth fruit.
Many, then focus on the fruit and says works are therefore necessary to being saved. This is in conflict with numerous statements of Paul's.
BTW
Even James wrote:
For whoever keeps the whole law, yet stumbles at JUST ONE POINT is guilty of breaking all of it
James 2:10
The only way you can avoid stumbling at just one point is if you have achieved sinless perfection.
So spiritually speaking, it is sinless perfection or you stand guilty of breaking the entire law
Yes, thank God I have spent so much time reading the Fathers. You realize that they use words we are used to (justified, sanctified, illuminated, etcetera) with distinctly different meanings than modern, Western parlance. Orthodoxy retains a lot of their original meaning and takes for granted that this is what they always mean, and if someone objects to "works" with these entirely different implications (of merit), the Orthodox do not know how to perceive this other than a rejection of clear Scriptural teaching. The West (Catholics and Protestants) have a sort of arrogance that everyone is going to take their definitions, and paradigms, for granted.that's a good point. often the way we Orthodox speak of works is not the same as how the modern West speaks of them.
May I ask you, and abacabb3?aside from that is not what we teach or believe. salvation is not simply by faith, or else Paul would not have said to work out our salvation. Christ Himself commands good works. salvation is not simply believing in Christ only.
right, no one is disputing this.
right, no one is disputing this either.
right again, and no one is disputing this either.
simply saying that works are a part of salvation, does not mean we can earn our way into heaven. you are defining the role of works in a way that we don't believe.
May I ask you, and abacabb3?
What is your righteousness before God?
What is your righteousness/ justification/ rightstanding before God?what do you mean?
What is your righteousness/ justification/ rightstanding before God?
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