Easter According to Daniel

[DavidPT]

That means the 490 years aren’t fulfilled until after Satans little season. Everyone I know that has a gap in the 490 years has them being fulfilled just prior to the second coming of Christ, before the millennium not after.

I’m not arguing against a gap, just that if it is fulfilled prior to the millennium then it doesn’t seem to make sense unless it is being interpreted similarly to how CG is interpreting it.

Since you were responding to D) on that list, in regards to 2 Peter 3:13, there are some of us Premils who tend to think the new heavens and new earth begins with Christ's return, which means that the thousand years are the first thousand years of the everlasting NHNE. Granted, most Premils do not agree with that, yet there are some Premils that do. The reason why I do is because it is ludicrous to think that when Christ returns, there won't be righteousness dwelling in the earth at the time. Which means to me, though there might be some still sinning or whatever, justice will be fair. Thus no crooked courts, no crooked judges, no crooked lawyers, etc. Everything will be dealt with righteously and with perfect justice, thus a place wherein dwelleth righteousness. And since I'm not convinced that the thousand years pertain to the here and now, but am convinced that the 2nd coming ushers in the NHNE at that time, I have no choice but to conclude what I do. Right or wrong.

 

[grafted branch]

Initially I saw your point in regards to this maybe being problematic for Premil. But the more I think about it, what does satan's little season have to do with anything one way or the other? Assuming there are no gaps, does that view require that the 70 weeks can't be fulfilled until satan's little season is fulfilled first? No, right? Why would that have to be the case if there is a gap? Explain why satan's little season would not be relevant if there are no gaps in the 70 weeks, but would be relevant if there is a gap in the 70 weeks? Either way, satan's little season is meaning after the 70 weeks are fulfilled, is it not?

If the Daniel 9:24 goals are interpreted as being fulfilled in a non-physical manner then whether or not you have a gap they are fulfilled. If someone insists the goals have to be fulfilled in a physical manner then this puts the fulfillment past the millennium.
My point is this, gap or no gap it seems everyone should be interpreting the goals in Daniel 9:24 as having already been achieved.

 

[grafted branch]

there are some of us Premils who tend to think the new heavens and new earth begins with Christ's return, which means that the thousand years are the first thousand years of the everlasting NHNE.

I would say that’s a difficult position to support, Satan being let loose in NHNE.

 

[Christian Gedge]

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Obviously, the fact this is mentioned in verse 27, this undeniably indicates it is something involving the 70th week, the 2nd half in this case. Explain how that part was fulfilled within 3.5 years of Christ's death. If it wasn't for this part I might agree that the entire 70 weeks have been fulfilled. My conscience won't let me agree, because to agree, the fact this part is undeniably involving the 2nd half of the 70th week, is to then apply this to Christ, which is ludicrous.

The fall of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple did not take place within the actual seventy weeks; the prophet was simply providing information of the aftermath to the weeks in order to explain what the eventual outcome would be. So, verse 27 has a span 40 years. Nothing ludicrous here @DavidPT. The prophecy starts with Messiah’s accomplishment, then describes something that 'overspread'. This 'overspreading abomination' was the blasphemous resumption of animal sacrifice.

The overspreading abomination continued till the punishment determined was poured out. That which was "poured out" was the desolation of Jerusalem, occurring 40 years after the 70th week.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Marilyn.

It may come as a surprise to you, but the ending of the 70th week is all about Gentiles. Such an idea appears contradictory at first because the angel spoke of ‘your people’ when referring to Daniel’s people, the Jews. Yes, the angel said, “Seventy weeks are determined for your people ...” but that is the whole point. Israel is about the Gentiles! Israel was the vehicle so to speak, by which salvation would come to the world, for that is what was ultimately in God’s mind.

So, when he says, “Seventy weeks are determined for Israel,” God means 490 years will pass and then the atonement:- transgression finished; sins taken away; reconciliation etc. The destiny of Israel climaxes with good news to the world! Accordingly, St. Peter said to the Jews:

“Men of Israel … you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.’ When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.” (Acts 3:25-26)​

In other words, he confirmed the covenant by guaranteeing first option to the children of the covenant then afterward by granting the good news to the Gentiles as he had promised all those years before. Here is St Paul on the same theme:

“For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God’s truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs, and in order that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written, “Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles, and sing to your name.” (Romans 15:8-9)​

Hi CG,

Yes, Israel will rule the nations righteously and show them God`s ways, (Micah 4: 1 - 3). However, the 70 x 7 is to finish National rebellion for that is the reason they had the chastisement. Sin will still be in the world after that as Israel is to rule over nations that are still in the world. That we know is the millennium. And even though there are no more wars in that time, people are still sinful. (Isa. 65: 20, Zech. 14: 16 - 19)

Yes, `all the peoples on earth will blessed,` and that is in the millennium as they learn God`s ways, and on the new earth. And in the millennium, those of the nations that are left after Armageddon, will go up to Jerusalem and worship the Lord and learn of His ways. Those who do not will have the plague upon them. It is still a sinful time but under the `rod of iron,` by the Lord.

 

[Timtofly]

If the Daniel 9:24 goals are interpreted as being fulfilled in a non-physical manner then whether or not you have a gap they are fulfilled. If someone insists the goals have to be fulfilled in a physical manner then this puts the fulfillment past the millennium.
My point is this, gap or no gap it seems everyone should be interpreting the goals in Daniel 9:24 as having already been achieved.

It is not a goal nor an achievement.

It is a promise to physical people living on a physical earth. Adam and Eve were physical people prior to Adam's disobedience.

They were not spirits that suddenly were given a physical body.

 

[Christian Gedge]

Continuing our Easter topic with the second goal of the 70th week. (listen from 15 minutes into video) The Cross of Christ made an end of sins by removing the accumulated sin temporarily covered under the old covenant, as well as removing in advance sin committed under the new covenant.

Having satisfied the requirements of justice, God made an end of sins. No, we are not saying that sin does not happen. On the contrary; “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” What scripture means by “ending sin” is that “if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:8-9)

It needs to be remembered that no amount of confession under the old covenant took sins away. Animal sacrifice under this covenant only covered sin, the temple being a ‘container’ holding the accumulated guilt of those who sacrificed there. Year after year the Day of Atonement was repeated, the volume of sin expanded and the covering was extended for yet another year.

When Jesus died there was already an accumulated heap of guilt, so Daniel’s reference to “making an end of sins” meant exactly that. Christ’s Cross took it away allowing the Old Testament saints to inherit the promise even though they lived before the New Testament had begun.

“Therefore, he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.” “Hebrews 9:15)​

The Cross of Christ atones for sin retrospectively and in advance. God knew those who saw in their offerings the shadow of a greater sacrifice to come, and God knows those who look back to the Cross in faith. For both of them, the blood of Jesus purifies from all sin.

 

[keras]

Repentance is the primary requirement for the forgiveness of sin. Luke 13:1-5

When the end of sins comes; then there will be no more sins.
That is how it will be during the Millennium, until Satan is released. THEN comes the GWT Judgment and Eternity, where sin will finally be no more.

 

[Christian Gedge]

This is the one that most of us agree on - the third goal of the 70th week. (18 minutes into video if you don’t want to listen to the whole message again) The Cross of Christ reconciled us to God whose justice was satisfied by the propitiatory sacrifice of his Son.

With the problem of transgression and sin dealt with, we are able to be reconciled to God. Reconciliation is what Daniel saw when he wrote in step by step order: “Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city ...

1. to finish the transgression,
2. to make an end of sins,
3. to make reconciliation for iniquity”

Actually, God's whole purpose in the Cross was to reconcile us to himself to bring us from separation and enmity, to peace and new relationship with him. New Testament scriptures show that ...

"...we were God's enemies but we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son." (Rom. 5: 10)​

​

"... you who once were far away have been bought near by the blood of Christ." (Ephesians 2: 13)​

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"... you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds but now he has reconciled you by ​

Christ's physical body through death (Colossians 1: 21-22)​

Old Testament scriptures show the same thing prophesied all those years before by the prophet Daniel.

 

[keras]

1. to finish the transgression,
2. to make an end of sins,
3. to make reconciliation for iniquity”

1 Transgressions continue.
2. Sin abounds.
3. We await the final reconciliation.

All yet to happen. The next stage will be at the glorious Return, then the final fulfilment after the Millennium, in Eternity.

 

[grafted branch]

In your video you mention the Holy Spirit going to the Gentiles. I’ve been looking at Daniel 12:11-12 and the 1290 days and 1335 days.

If the end of the 70 weeks is seen as the Holy Spirit coming on the Gentiles and this is day 1290 then would day 1335 be Acts 11:18 when Gentiles are officially declared by the church (the circumcision in Jerusalem, Acts 11:2) to be granted repentance as they were?

In Acts 10:48 those at Caesarea asked Peter to tarry certain days. We don’t know for certain if Peter tarried or how long it was before Acts 11:2 when he came to Jerusalem but 45 days would seem to be reasonable.

 

[Christian Gedge]

Hi Grafted Branch. As best as I can tell, Daniel 12 is about the second coming whereas chapter 9 is about his first coming. The numbers 1290 and 1335 are old calendar formulas, and I explain how they work in my book, ‘The Atonement Clock.’ Have you got a copy?

However, I must admit, I couldn’t make 1290 fit the ’week’ from John the Baptist until the Gentile Pentecost. 1260 days did fit, but not the other number. The other problem I had was the event in Cornelius’ house has only been dated within 6 months of the end of the 70th week. Close, but until something is unearthed, I can only say late AD33 till early AD34.

Thank you for your thoughtful suggestions. Always things to chew on.

 

[grafted branch]

Hi Grafted Branch. As best as I can tell, Daniel 12 is about the second coming whereas chapter 9 is about his first coming. The numbers 1290 and 1335 are old calendar formulas, and I explain how they work in my book, ‘The Atonement Clock.’ Have you got a copy?

However, I must admit, I couldn’t make 1290 fit the ’week’ from John the Baptist until the Gentile Pentecost. 1260 days did fit, but not the other number. The other problem I had was the event in Cornelius’ house has only been dated within 6 months of the end of the 70th week. Close, but until something is unearthed, I can only say late AD33 till early AD34.

Thank you for your thoughtful suggestions. Always things to chew on.

I have read your book awhile ago, I do see where “time, times, and half a time” is really half a Sabbatical cycle and can be 1260 or 1290 days. And I also see where Daniel 12:11 can mean there are 1290 days from the Day of Atonement to the end of the cycle.

Thanks for your input on that, I think God made the Bible just difficult enough to comprehend that we are assured we will always have something to chew on.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You would think, if the 70th week is supposed to be applied like you are applying it, which then means the entire 70 weeks ended in the first century,

No. The 69 weeks ended when Christ went to the Cross to die on the behalf of His Elect. The Cross was when:

1. To finish the transgression
2. To make an end of sins
3. To make a reconciliation for iniquity
4. To bring in everlasting righteousness

And at the same time, Christ, the Messiah and Prince per context, shed His blood to confirm a new covenant with many (ie. New Testament Congregation) so they go forth to the end of the world with Gospel. This is the millennial kingdom! This final covenant week lasted from the Cross (Pentecost) to the Second Coming. Therefore, the final week is NOT a so-called 7 years period signed by Antichrist as Dispensationalists believe.

And then like I have pointed out in the past, since one of those 6 things listed in Daniel 9:24 involves finishing the transgression concerning the holy city, how then is it reasonable that that was finished concerning the holy city, then some 40 years later this same holy city is attacked and destroyed? That equals that the transgression concerning the holy city was finished 40 years earlier, exactly how??

It is because you got the wrong people and city to begin with, David. God is talking about HIS PEOPLE (Elect) and His Holy City (Spiritual Jersualem) which the Old Testament Jews and their physical nation and city were merely represented, while the Church in the New Testament also represents the same city! Gentiles are NOW also considered as Daniel's people IN CHRIST!

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression , and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Determined upon the holy city where God's Elect is part of! They are who Christ went to the Cross for!!!! The sins of all Elect from the Old Testament and New Testament have been nailed to the Cross. The prophecy does NOT strictly apply only to the Jews or the physical city in the Middle East.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The fall of Jerusalem and destruction of the temple did not take place within the actual seventy weeks; the prophet was simply providing information of the aftermath to the weeks in order to explain what the eventual outcome would be.

Agreed. This is exactly the same point that John S. Evans made in his book, "The Four Kingdoms of Daniel". For the actual terms included in the 70 weeks, to "seal up the vision and prophecy" was to put those prophecies in a reserved, delayed status before the end of the 70 weeks until their eventual fulfillment took place at a later time by the close of AD 70.

Hi Grafted Branch. As best as I can tell, Daniel 12 is about the second coming whereas chapter 9 is about his first coming. The numbers 1290 and 1335 are old calendar formulas, and I explain how they work in my book, ‘The Atonement Clock.’ Have you got a copy?

However, I must admit, I couldn’t make 1290 fit the ’week’ from John the Baptist until the Gentile Pentecost. 1260 days did fit, but not the other number. The other problem I had was the event in Cornelius’ house has only been dated within 6 months of the end of the 70th week. Close, but until something is unearthed, I can only say late AD33 till early AD34.

Agreed with your underlined statement above. However, the Daniel 12:11-12 numbers of 1,290 and 1,335 are not included at all within Daniel's 70 weeks of time (with no gap). The problem with trying to match Daniel 12:11-12's number of 1,290 days and the final 1,335th day with John the Baptist's time is that the 1,290 days up until the 1,335th day were supposed to START with #1, the abomination of desolation (aka, "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" in Luke 21:20), and #2, the taking away of a daily sacrifice . This doesn't fit John the Baptist's time at all or the Gentile Pentecost.

It was actually Paul's AD 37 temple vision mentioned in Acts 22:17-21 when God specifically commissioned him to go to the Gentiles which was the ending point of the 70 weeks. "Depart" (from Jerusalem), "for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles", God told Paul. The covenant had been confirmed with many of Daniel's people ever since AD 30 at the beginning of that last 70th week, ever since Christ's first miracle in Cana which caused His disciples to believe on Him.

Jesus Himself told us when that 70th week started when He said in Mark 1:14-15, "The time is fulfilled," (meaning the 70th week had just begun), "and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." This was the year when John the Baptist had just been thrown into prison

 

[3 Resurrections]

Verse 25: 70 times 7 = 490 years. The first 7 ‘weeks’ = 49 years, starts from the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem in the 20th year of the reign of Artaxerxes. This was in 445BC. Jerusalem’s walls and streets were rebuilt ‘even in troublous times’. As Nehemiah and Ezra describe.

This underlined 445BC date you have proposed is wrong for the 20th year of Artaxerxes reign (which you DO have correct as the particular decree Daniel was referring to). Your proposed 445 BC year does not take into account the co-regency Artaxerxes shared with his father. This co-regency began in 474 BC. Count those 20 years forward in time of Artaxerxes's reign, and Daniel 9:25's command to restore Jerusalem - street and walls included - began in 454 BC. The 70 weeks prophecy starts from that year.

 

[grafted branch]

the 1,290 days up until the 1,335th day were supposed to START with #1, the abomination of desolation (aka, "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" in Luke 21:20), and #2, the taking away of a daily sacrifice .

There is a problem with saying the Abomination of desolation is Jerusalem surrounded by armies. In Mark 13:3 James is one of the disciples that Jesus spoke directly to on the mount of olives. Mark 13:14 says “when ye shall see the abomination of desolation”.

According to information I found on the internet James died in 44AD after being beheaded by king Herod, he was the first apostle to be martyred.

So either James saw the abomination which would’ve been before 44AD or when Jesus said “when ye shall see” he wasn’t referring to those directly in front of Him.

 

[DavidPT]

So either James saw the abomination which would’ve been before 44AD or when Jesus said “when ye shall see” he wasn’t referring to those directly in front of Him.

Mark 13:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies , then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.


Except not one person mentioned in Mark 13:3 was still alive in 70 AD, except for maybe John. Now what? Don't Preterists argue that pronouns in the Discourse are always meaning the ones Jesus was addressing at the time? Wouldn't it be a lie, for Jesus, since He was addressing James at the time, for example, to then say to James, when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh, when James wouldn't even be alive at the time? Using this same logic, then applying it to Matthew 24:15 as well.

As to what you are proposing as an option---either James saw the abomination which would’ve been before 44AD--keep in mind, that would have to be an option involving Luke 21:20 as well. But since it obviously can't be a valid option concerning Luke 21:20, it therefore can't be a valid option concerning Matthew 24:15, either. Especially if one is taking Matthew 24:15 and Luke 21:21 to be involving the same events, the same time period.

IOW, as to Luke 21:20 and what you are proposing as options involving Matthew 24---So either James saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies which would’ve been before 44AD or when Jesus said “when ye shall see” he wasn’t referring to those directly in front of Him.

 

[grafted branch]

Mark 13:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies , then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.


Except not one person mentioned in Mark 13:3 was still alive in 70 AD, except for maybe John. Now what? Don't Preterists argue that pronouns in the Discourse are always meaning the ones Jesus was addressing at the time? Wouldn't it be a lie, for Jesus, since He was addressing James at the time, for example, to then say to James, when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh, when James wouldn't even be alive at the time? Using this same logic, then applying it to Matthew 24:15 as well.

As to what you are proposing as an option---either James saw the abomination which would’ve been before 44AD--keep in mind, that would have to be an option involving Luke 21:20 as well. But since it obviously can't be a valid option concerning Luke 21:20, it therefore can't be a valid option concerning Matthew 24:15, either. Especially if one is taking Matthew 24:15 and Luke 21:21 to be involving the same events, the same time period.

IOW, as to Luke 21:20 and what you are proposing as options involving Matthew 24---So either James saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies which would’ve been before 44AD or when Jesus said “when ye shall see” he wasn’t referring to those directly in front of Him.

I don’t think the AOD and Jerusalem surrounded by armies are the same event. I think the AOD has to do with the sacrifices being resumed after the veil was torn.

In Luke 1:3 Luke states he has perfect understanding of all things from the start, to write unto thee in order. Or as some interpretations put it, investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to wire it out unto you in an orderly sequence.

This means that the accounts in Matthew and Mark are not necessarily in orderly sequence, and since Luke doesn’t mention the AOD or the days being shortened it’s my opinion that the apostles did witness the AOD but didn’t flee because they understood that the days would be shortened which affected when they should flee.

So I see it as Jesus specifically telling Peter, James, John and Andrew that they would see the AOD in Matthew and Mark while Luke gives an orderly account that includes the understanding of the AOD in Daniel. I don’t think Luke 21:20 should be interpreted as Peter, James, John and Andrew being told they would witness Jerusalem surrounded by armies in 66AD.

 

[Christian Gedge]

Jesus Himself told us when that 70th week started when He said in Mark 1:14-15, "The time is fulfilled," (meaning the 70th week had just begun), "and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." This was the year when John the Baptist had just been thrown into prison

Yes 3R, I agree with this. And I date it early AD 27. John imprisoned later in the same year. Thanks.