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Easiest Defense of Sola Scriptura

PeaceByJesus

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Now we're getting into your opinion, which is like everyone else's.
Really? So outside of your objection to Rome's manifest desire to control Jerusalem being characterized as lust, which definition is in the eye of the beholder, what is simply my opinion in my statement that this desire "was for direct control, either thru or without internationalization of Jerusalem, which is arrogance in either case. The Jews were given the land by God, and lost it by disobedience, but after great suffering the Hebrew people regained a good portion of it, and defended it many times at the cost of much of her own blood and with manifest Divine help, and as a sovereign nation no other entity has a right to control parts out it, any more than the UN does here?"
 
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PeaceByJesus

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No, it doesn't. I'm sorry you can't tell the difference.
I'm sorry you can't tell the difference. If there is only one Catholic Church, which is the one Paul referred as the "one body, its excludes all other churches who are not part of Rome from being part of that body.

You can argue that Prots are actually part of the church of Rome=the mystical body, but which is contrary to so many magisterial statements, as shown, and ignored by you.
I have repeatedly said that there is only one Church Christ founded, and that all of us baptized conform to Christ imperfectly, regardless of what label we put on ourselves.
What you said was that there is only one Catholic Church, which is the one body Paul referred to, and thus those who are not part of the capital "C" Catholic Church are not part of the body of Christ.

Papal teaching is indeed that the mystical body of Christ and the visible, organic church of Rome are one in the same, and those who are not in submission to the pope, who are not in her bosom, but recede even in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium, are not part of that body.

Why evade this admission?

Or are you using "catholic" as saying that Church of Christ subsists also in Christian communities separated from Rome? If so, what do you do with the RCs who disagree with you? And if not, then you are saying that the church which Paul referred to is only the RCC, as charged.
As for "RC's" that disagree with me, so what? There's "RC's" that disagree with me on abortion and gay marriage, too. The Church is right, not necessarily those who claim to be part of The Church.
And they say the same, but here the weight of evidence is with the traditionalists, that Church of Christ does not subsists also in Christian communities separated from Rome.

And your church has stated that the idea that the one Church of Christ could subsist also in non-Catholic churches and ecclesial communities is contrary to the authentic meaning of Lumen Gentium, versus only salvific elements existing in them.

Which, as your traditionalists charge, is obviously different than the time in which those who are not in submission to Rome, who do not remain in the bosom of the RCC, were excluded as being part of the body of Christ.

The body of Christ "the universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved," is described as that which believes in the Cath Eucharist, and that she has always held that they were "outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium," and that "in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors," that "all who want to belong to the true and only Church of Christ must honor and obey this Apostolic See and Roman Pontiff," for "subjection to the Roman pontiff is necessary for salvation for all Christ's faithful," so that "even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church," and anathematizes those who hold "that the Roman Pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy." Sources
See above. People who all claim to be Democrats, Republicans, or members of any denomination don't agree on everything. That's why they tend to splinter from the main group. The main group still exists, though.Your opinion means little, really.
That is absurd, for it is manifestly not my opinion that Prots can be part of the body of Christ is that is only the Catholic church, for this elite unScriptural arrogance is abundantly substantiated by historical RC teaching!

And your analogy does not correspond to my argument, that a church which uniquely claims to be the body of Christ, and excludes as its members those who recede even in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium, cannot claim those who do so as being part of the body of Christ.

Just admit it.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Actually when the Hebrew canon became fixed is a hotly contested topic, but that they did not consider the Deutros (Apocrypha) Scripture is rather well established, and Septuagint will not help you here, and resulted in the general rejection of apocryphal books by 4th c. Jerome as being Scripture proper.

And that there was a generally accepted canon by the time of Christ is manifest by His and apostles very references to "Scripture" or "it is written" as being the word of God, and to the tripartite division of the law and the prophets and the writings, (Lk. 24:44) which is thought to correspond to a Palestinian canon of the Scribes and Pharisees who sat in the seat of Moses, but which does not settle the question what these categories precisely consisted of, besides the quotations from them in the NT as being the word of God.

For it is true that while even pagans as well as non canonical books such as Enoch could be quoted in the NT, the only OT texts which are called Scripture or the word of God or authoritatively "it is written" in the NT are from the Hebrew canon. Yet which does not include all the 22 (=39) books, and thus we must consider other evidence.

[Josephus] also limits his books to those written between the time of Moses and Artaxerxes, thus eliminating some apocryphal books, observing that "(Jewish) history hath been written since Artaxerxes very particularly but hath not been esteemed of the like authority with the former by our forefathers, because there hath not been an exact succession of prophets since that time."

Also in support of the Jewish canon excluding the apocrypha we also have Philo, the Alexandrian Jewish philosopher (20 BC-AD 40) who never quoted from the Apocrypha as inspired, though he prolifically quoted the Old Testament and recognized the threefold division

While other have different opinions, in the Tosfeta (supplement to the Mishnah) it states, "...the Holy Spirit departed after the death of Haggai, Zecharaiah, and Malachi. Thus Judaism defined the limits of the canon that was and still is accepted within the Jewish community." Once that limit was defined, there was little controversy. Some discussion was held over Ecclesiastes and Song of Songs, but the core and bulk of the OT was never disputed. (Tosfeta Sota 13.2, quoted by German theologian Leonhard Rost [1896-1979], Judaism Outside the Hebrew Canon. Nashville: Abingdon, 1971; http://www.tektonics.org/lp/otcanon.html)

● The available historical evidence indicates that in the Jewish mind a collection of books existed from at least 400 B.C. in three groups, two of them fluid, 22 (24 by another manner of counting) in number, which were considered by the Jews from among the many other existing books as the only ones for which they would die rather than add to or take away from them, books which they considered veritably from God...The Apocrypha are not included. (http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/rev-henry/11_apocrypha_young.pdf)

● Although some apocryphal books contain a few texts which correspond to New Testament ones, this is also true of some works which are found outside the apocrypha, which the Bible sometimes quotes from. (Acts 17:28; Jude 1:14) Texts from the apocrypha were occasionally quoted in early church writings, and were considered worthy reading even if not included as Scripture, but the apocrypha was not accepted in such early O.T. lists as that of Melito (AD 170) bishop of the church in Sardis, an inland city of Asia Minor, who gives a list of the Hebrew canon, minus Esther, and makes no mention of any of the apocryphal/deuterocanonical books:

Of Moses five, Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus, Deuteronomy; Joshua the son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, four of Kingdoms1 two of Chronicles, the Psalms of David, Solomon's Proverbs or Wisdom,2 Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Job; of the Prophets: Isaiah, Jeremiah,3 the Twelve [minor prophets] in one book, Daniel, Ezekiel, Esdras.4

1. 1 and 2 Samuel and 1 and 2 Kings.

2. Proverbs was sometimes called "Wisdom" according to Eusebius, (Ec clesiastical History 4.22.9.)

3. Understood to include Lamentations, not being the custom of the times to list it separately.

4.Ezra and Nehemiah were then counted as one book, and sometimes was called simply Esdras (Greek for Ezra).
(http://www.bible-researcher.com/melito.html)

● Origen in the 2nd century (c. 240) rejected the apocrypha as he held to the Palestinian canon (plus the Letter of Jeremiah), and likewise Cyril of Jerusalem (plus Baruch), but like St. Hilary of Poitiers (300-368) and Rufinus who also rejected the apocrypha, Origen used them or parts thereof , as others also did with these second class books.

● Jerome (340-420), the preeminent 3rd century scholar rejected the Apocrypha, as they did not have the sanction of Jewish antiquity, and were not received by all, and did not generally work toward "confirmation of the doctrine of the Church." His lists of the 24 books of the O.T. Scriptures corresponds to the 39 of the Protestant canon,

Jerome wrote in his Prologue to the Books of the Kings,

“This preface to the Scriptures may serve as a helmeted [i.e. defensive] introduction to all the books which we turn from Hebrew into Latin, so that we may be assured that what is outside of them must be placed aside among the Apocryphal writings. Wisdom, therefore, which generally bears the name of Solomon, and the book of Jesus the Son of Sirach, and Judith, and Tobias, and the Shepherd [of Hermes?] are not in the canon. The first book of Maccabees is found in Hebrew, but the second is Greek, as can be proved from the very style.

In his preface to Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs he also states,

“As, then, the Church reads Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees, but does not admit them among the canonical Scriptures, so let it read these two volumes for the edification of the people, not to give authority to doctrines of the Church.” (Shaff, Henry Wace, A Select Library of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, p. 492)

The Catholic Encyclopedia (in the face of ancient opposition) states,

An analysis of Jerome's expressions on the deuterocanonicals, in various letters and prefaces, yields the following results: first, he strongly doubted their inspiration; secondly, the fact that he occasionally quotes them, and translated some of them as a concession to ecclesiastical tradition, is an involuntary testimony on his part to the high standing these writings enjoyed in the Church at large, and to the strength of the practical tradition which prescribed their readings in public worship. Obviously, the inferior rank to which the deuteros were relegated by authorities like Origen, Athanasius, and Jerome, was due to too rigid a conception of canonicity, one demanding that a book, to be entitled to this supreme dignity, must be received by all, must have the sanction of Jewish antiquity, and must moreover be adapted not only to edification, but also to the "confirmation of the doctrine of the Church", to borrow Jerome's phrase. (Catholic Encyclopedia, Canon of the Old Testament; http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm)

Also,
Gregory of Nazianzus (330 – 390) concurred with the canon of Anastasius.

● The list of O.T. books by the Council of Laodicea (363) may have been added later, and is that of Athanasius but with Esther included. It also contains the standard canon of the N.T. except that it omits Revelation, as does Cyril, thought to be due to excessive use of it by the Montanist cults

● John of Damascus, eminent theologian of the Eastern Church in the 8th century, and Nicephorus, patriarch of Constantinople in the 9th century also rejected the apocrypha, as did others, in part or in whole.

● The fourth century historian Euesibius also provides an early Christian list of both Old and New Testament books. In his Ecclesiastical History (written about A.D. 324), in three places quoting from Josephus, Melito and Origen, lists of the books (slightly differing) according to the Hebrew Canon. These he calls in the first place 'the Canonical Scriptures of the Old Testament, undisputed among the Hebrews;' and again,'the acknowledged Scriptures of the Old Testament;' and, lastly, 'the Holy Scriptures of the Old Testament.' In his Chronicle he distinctly separates the Books of Maccabees from the 'Divine Scriptures;' and elsewhere mentions Ecclesiasticus and Wisdom as 'controverted' books. (http://www.bible-researcher.com/eusebius.html)

● Cyril of Jerusalem (d. circa. 385 AD) exhorts his readers “Of these read the two and twenty books, but have nothing to do with the apocryphal writings. Study earnestly these only which we read openly in the Church. Far wiser and more pious than thyself were the Apostles, and the bishops of old time, the presidents of the Church who handed down these books. Being therefore a child of the Church, trench thou not upon its statutes. And of the Old Testament, as we have said, study the two and twenty books, which, if thou art desirous of learning, strive to remember by name, as I recite them.” (http://www.bible-researcher.com/cyril.html)


His lists supports the canon adopted by the Protestants, combining books after the Hebrew canon and excludes the apocrypha, though he sometimes used them, as per the standard practice by which the apocrypha was printed in Protestant Bibles, and includes Baruch as part of Jeremiah.

● Likewise Rufinus:

38.But it should also be known that there are other books which are called not "canonical" but "ecclesiastical" by the ancients: 5 that is, the Wisdom attributed to Solomon, and another Wisdom attributed to the son of Sirach, which the Latins called by the title Ecclesiasticus, designating not the author of the book but its character. To the same class belong the book of Tobit and the book of Judith, and the books of Maccabees.

With the New Testament there is the book which is called the Shepherd of Hermas, and that which is called The Two Ways 6 and the Judgment of Peter.7 They were willing to have all these read in the churches but not brought forward for the confirmation of doctrine. The other writings they named "apocrypha,"8 which they would not have read in the churches.

These are what the fathers have handed down to us, which, as I said, I have thought it opportune to set forth in this place, for the instruction of those who are being taught the first elements of the Church and of the Faith, that they may know from what fountains of the Word of God they should draw for drinking. (http://www.bible-researcher.com/rufinus.html)


●Summing up most of the above, the Catholic Encyclopedia states,

At Jerusalem there was a renascence, perhaps a survival, of Jewish ideas, the tendency there being distinctly unfavourable to the deuteros. St. Cyril of that see, while vindicating for the Church the right to fix the Canon, places them among the apocrypha and forbids all books to be read privately which are not read in the churches. In Antioch and Syria the attitude was more favourable. St. Epiphanius shows hesitation about the rank of the deuteros; he esteemed them, but they had not the same place as the Hebrew books in his regard. The historian Eusebius attests the widespread doubts in his time; he classes them as antilegomena, or disputed writings, and, like Athanasius, places them in a class intermediate between the books received by all and the apocrypha. The 59th (or 60th) canon of the provincial Council of Laodicea (the authenticity of which however is contested) gives a catalogue of the Scriptures entirely in accord with the ideas of St. Cyril of Jerusalem. On the other hand, the Oriental versions and Greek manuscripts of the period are more liberal; the extant ones have all the deuterocanonicals and, in some cases, certain apocrypha.

The influence of Origen's and Athanasius's restricted canon naturally spread to the West. St. Hilary of Poitiers and Rufinus followed their footsteps, excluding the deuteros from canonical rank in theory, but admitting them in practice. The latter styles them "ecclesiastical" books, but in authority unequal to the other Scriptures. St. Jerome cast his weighty suffrage on the side unfavourable to the disputed books... (Catholic Encyclopedia, Canon of the Old Testament)


● The Catholic Encyclopedia also states as regards the Middle Ages,

In the Latin Church, all through the Middle Ages [5th century to the 15th century] we find evidence of hesitation about the character of the deuterocanonicals. There is a current friendly to them, another one distinctly unfavourable to their authority and sacredness, while wavering between the two are a number of writers whose veneration for these books is tempered by some perplexity as to their exact standing, and among those we note St. Thomas Aquinas. Few are found to unequivocally acknowledge their canonicity. (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm) ^

Though Jerome later is said to have latter included apocryphal books, likewise Luther includes apocryphal books in his Bible, but not as Scripture proper, following the status men such as Jerome assigned them.


But that the Septuagint of the 1st century contained the Deutros is what is unsubstantiated, and the great lack of uniformity even among later mss at best indicates an uncertain status, and does not help your case.

British scholar R. T. Beckwith states, Philo of Alexandria's writings show it to have been the same as the Palestinian. He refers to the three familiar sections, and he ascribes inspiration to many books in all three, but never to any of the Apocrypha....The Apocrypha were known in the church from the start, but the further back one goes, the more rarely are they treated as inspired...

Manuscripts of anything like the capacity of Codex Alexandrinus were not used in the first centuries of the Christian era, and since in the second century AD the Jews seem largely to have discarded the Septuagint…there can be no real doubt that the comprehensive codices of the Septuagint, which start appearing in the fourth century AD, are all of Christian origin. (Roger T. Beckwith, "The Canon of the Old Testament" in Phillip Comfort, The Origin of the Bible [Wheaton: Tyndale House, 2003] pp. 57-64)


Nor is there agreement between the codices which of the Apocrypha include...Moreover, all three codices [Vaticanus, Sinaiticus and Alexandrinus], according to Kenyon, were produced in Egypt, yet the contemporary Christian lists of the biblical books drawn up in Egypt by Athanasius and (very likely) pseudo-Athanasius are much more critical, excluding all apocryphal books from the canon, and putting them in a separate appendix. (Roger Beckwith, [Anglican priest, Oxford BD and Lambeth DD], The Old Testament Canon of the New Testament Church [Eerdmans 1986], p. 382, 383; http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2008/01/legendary-alexandrian-canon.html)

Edward Earle Ellis finds, “No two Septuagint codices contain the same apocrypha, and no uniform Septuagint ‘Bible’ was ever the subject of discussion in the patristic church. In view of these facts the Septuagint codices appear to have been originally intended more as service books than as a defined and normative canon of Scripture,” (E. E. Ellis, The Old Testament in Early Christianity [Baker 1992], 34-35.

Likewise Gleason Archer affirms,

Even in the case of the Septuagint, the apocryphal books maintain a rather uncertain existence. The Codex Vaticanus (B) lacks [besides 3 and 4] 1 and 2 Maccabees (canonical, according to Rome), but includes 1 Esdras (non-canonical, according to Rome). The Sinaiticus (Aleph) omits Baruch (canonical, according to Rome), but includes 4 Maccabees (non-canonical, according to Rome)... Thus it turns out that even the three earliest MSS or the LXX show considerable uncertainty as to which books constitute the list of the Apocrypha.. (Archer, Gleason L., Jr., "A Survey of Old Testament Introduction", Moody Press, Chicago, IL, Rev. 1974, p. 75; http://www.provethebible.net/T2-Integ/B-1101.htm)

The German historian Martin Hengel writes, “Sinaiticus contains Barnabas and Hermas, Alexandrinus 1 and 2 Clement.” “Codex Alexandrinus...includes the LXX as we know it in Rahlfs’ edition, with all four books of Maccabees and the fourteen Odes appended to Psalms.” “...the Odes (sometimes varied in number), attested from the fifth century in all Greek Psalm manuscripts, contain three New Testament ‘psalms’: the Magnificat, the Benedictus, the Nunc Dimittis from Luke’s birth narrative, and the conclusion of the hymn that begins with the ‘Gloria in Excelsis.’ This underlines the fact that the LXX, although, itself consisting of a collection of Jewish documents, wishes to be a Christian book.” (Martin Hengel, The Septuagint as Christian Scripture [Baker 2004], pp. 57-59)

Also,

The Targums did not include these books, nor the earliest versions of the Peshitta, and the apocryphal books are seen to have been later additions, and later versions of the LXX varied in regard to which books of the apocrypha they contained. “Nor is there agreement between the codices which of the Apocrypha include. (Eerdmans 1986), 382.


Which is more evidence against the early post-apostolic church holding to the RC apocrypha for (and see above) Athanasius (c. 367), actually excluded the Book of Esther among the "7 books not in the canon but to be read" along with the Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus), Judith, Tobit, the Didache, and the Shepherd of Hermas. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasius_of_Alexandria#New_Testament_canon)

Which is more presumption, as you only assume that the NT church held to the deutros even though nothing from it is quoted or referenced from it as Scripture, or authoritative as "it is written," "thus saith the Lord" or the like, while possible (sparse) references to apocryphal texts no more make such Scripture proper than does even quoting truth from Enoch or pagan poets.

And in reality, scholarly disagreements over the canonicity (proper) of certain books continued down through the centuries and right into Trent, until it provided the first "infallible," indisputable canon — after the death of Luther.

Which is another unproven assumption, since "removal"presumes these books were held as being Scripture at least by those who sat in the seat of Moses, which is doubtful. Note also that the belief that there was a Council of Jamnia which settled the Hebrew canon is largely abandoned by modern scholars.

As for references to Christ in the deutros, outside of the falsely-attributed Wisdom of Solomon (yet which I think is the most Scripture-like apocryphal book), and which may have been written after the resurrection, where are these references to Christ in the apocryphal books, especially that are so substantial that Jews would remove them from their canon?

If this was their motivation then you would think they would have removed the quoted texts which the NT actually does invoke as referring to Christ, which are from the Hebrew canon.

Thank you for the most excellent and exhaustive discussion of this vital topic. I note that nobody from the opposing side has seen fit to respond to it. Thus, I think you have successfully made the case for a canon of scripture without the deutercanonical books.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Thank you for the most excellent and exhaustive discussion of this vital topic.
Well, it is far from exhaustive, but thank God for what light it provides.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Thank you for the most excellent and exhaustive discussion of this vital topic. I note that nobody from the opposing side has seen fit to respond to it. Thus, I think you have successfully made the case for a canon of scripture without the deutercanonical books.
You mean, other than the fact that the canon was determined in local councils in the 4th century? And that they include the deuterocanon?
 
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PeaceByJesus

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You mean, other than the fact that the canon was determined in local councils in the 4th century? And that they include the deuterocanon?

No, the fact that the canon was not determined/settled for the whole church in local councils in the 4th century or any century, and thus scholarly disagreements over the canonicity (proper) of certain books continued down through the centuries and right into Trent, which provided the first "infallible," indisputable canon — after the death of Luther.

And the (local) Council of Laodicea forbade the readings in church of uncanonical books, and its 60th canon only sanctioned "the 22 books of the Hebrew Bible, plus the Book of Baruch and the Epistle of Jeremy...Around 350 AD, Cyril of Jerusalem produced a list matching that from the Council of Laodicea," (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Laodicea) though the authenticity of the 60th canon is disputed.

Moreover, Webster finds,

“The seventh Ecumenical Council officially accepted the Trullan Canons as part of the sixth Ecumenical Council. The importance of this is underscored by canon II of Trullo which officially authorized the decrees of Carthage, thereby elevating them to a place of ecumenical authority. However, the Council also sanctioned were the canons of Athanasius and Amphilochius that had to do with the canon and both of these fathers rejected the major books of the Apocrypha. In addition, the Council sanctioned the Apostolical canons which, in canon eighty-five, gave a list of canonical books which included 3 Maccabees, a book never accepted as canonical in the West.101 Furthermore, the Apostolical canons were condemned and rejected as apocryphal in the decrees of Popes Gelasius and Hormisdas.102 Thus indicating that the approval given was not specific but general.” (http://www.christiantruth.com/articles/Apocrypha3.html)


Furthermore, the claim that the Council of Rome (382) approved the canon depends upon the Decretum Gelasianum, the authority of which is disputed (among RC's themselves), based upon evidence that it was pseudepigraphical, being a sixth century compilation put together in northern Italy or southern France. In addition the Council of Rome found many opponents in Africa. More: http://www.tertullian.org/articles/burkitt_gelasianum.htm
 
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Rick Otto

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Really? So outside of your objection to Rome's manifest desire to control Jerusalem being characterized as lust, which definition is in the eye of the beholder, what is simply my opinion in my statement that this desire "was for direct control, either thru or without internationalization of Jerusalem, which is arrogance in either case. The Jews were given the land by God, and lost it by disobedience, but after great suffering the Hebrew people regained a good portion of it, and defended it many times at the cost of much of her own blood and with manifest Divine help, and as a sovereign nation no other entity has a right to control parts out it, any more than the UN does here?"
Are you aware of the actual historical details of the Balfore Decision, who the players were and how it fit into the geopolitics of globalization?
The reappearance of the nation of Israel is so sinister, it should effect your perspective on how it fulfills prophecy. I say reappearance as opposed to restoration.
 
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Rick Otto said in post 1567:

The reappearance of the nation of Israel is so sinister, it should effect your perspective on how it fulfills prophecy.

Note that the prophecy of the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus' cursing of the literal, fruitless fig tree (Matthew 21:19) foreshadowed his curse on the part of Old Covenant Israel which rejected him (Matthew 21:43), for sola scriptura shows that a fig tree can represent Israel (Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9). And the Israel which was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel which Jesus cursed at his 1st coming, insofar as it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel which was reestablished in 1948 may never bear fruit. For it could be destroyed before Jesus' 2nd coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman army.

But sola scriptura shows that Jesus' kingdom is still called "Israel" (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7), and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the still-living, unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in Jesus when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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^^ at which time they that preferred a king in rejection of God as outlined in Samuel will have the King of Kings and Lord of Lords and the sins of Benjamin will be remembered no more.
 
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ChristsSoldier115

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Western culture tends to place a huge amount of value upon literacy i have learned recently...i wonder if sola scriptura was developed because of our culture's natural biased to literacy as being the be all, end all of communication and record keeping.:scratch:
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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Western culture tends to place a huge amount of value upon literacy i have learned recently...i wonder if sola scriptura was developed because of our culture's natural biased to literacy as being the be all, end all of communication and record keeping.:scratch:
You forget that God himself ordained scripture and personally penned the 10 commandments, IN STONE, the origin of an idiom that survives today, "written in stone".

You put the cart before the horse. Literacy is the response to God's command to proclaim the gospel and teach God's word to the world. Are you unfamiliar with how much the Church has been involved in translating the Bible into every language and teaching even remote people to be literate for the purpose of reading scripture?

Recognize the prophesy in Daniel that in the end times knowledge will increase.

Daniel 12:4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”​

Acknowledge that literacy is key to widespread knowledge. The invention of the printing press was a disruptive technology that enabled knowledge to be distributed to the masses. The book that has been printed the most is the Bible. Today we have a further disruptive technology for knowledge. The internet and Google now offer free, unbounded access to information on just about all the knowledge of the world. All knowledge is at the fingertips of all people. This is truly fulfillment of the Daniel prophesy.

Now for the claim that literacy is just a thing of western cultures, you need to do a little more research before making such crass statements.
 
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PanDeVida

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This is not going to be some long winded word game. It is easy.

1) God's Word is True, incontrovertibly true.
2) Scripture is God's Word.
3) Scripture is incontrovertibly true.

4) Prove another source of incontrovertible truth.
5) No other physical source of incontrovertible truth on earth has been proven.

By default, there is only Sola Scriptura.

Yes, there have been multiple threads on SS. The problem is that all the attacks on SS put the burden to prove there are no other source of incontrovertible truth on the holders to SS. How ridiculous is that? The burden is on those that believe in another source of incontrovertible truth. Despite being asked multiple times in other threads, no proof has been given for incontrovertible truth in any other earthly source.

So if you think anything but SS, I challenge you to prove to me another source of incontrovertible truth.

Anti, really, Sola Scriptura? Is it really Sola Scriptura and nothing Else?

Yes, Thanks to the Catholic Early Church Fathers who compiled Scripture guided by the Holy Spirit, that many say "Sola Scriptura", in which the early Church Fathers never said or believed in Sola Scriptura.

Anti, However, can Sola Scriptura in itself, can it teach for itself, Baptize anyone, Marry anyone, Bind and Lose, Forgive or Retain sins, etc...???

Anti, if Sola Scriptura can not do any of the above itself, then it is not only Sola Scriptura as you say.

It is both, the Catholic Church and Scripture go hand in hand with each other, having one without the other is only having half truths and not the Full Truth.

Now why do I say Catholic Church? Well, it is an "easy defense" and that is, who compiled Scripture into a Bible? Catholic Church.
 
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Bible2+

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PanDeVida said in post 1573:

However, can Sola Scriptura in itself, can it teach for itself . . .

Yes, of course, in the sense that it was inspired by God the Holy Spirit (2 Timothy 3:15-17), who can teach by himself. For:

2 Peter 1:19 ¶We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

PanDeVida said in post 1573:

However, can Sola Scriptura in itself, can it teach for itself, Baptize anyone . . .

Regarding baptism, note that the Holy Spirit himself teaches through sola scriptura that in order to be saved ultimately, believers must get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ's death for our sins (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16). The original Greek noun for "baptism" (baptismos) is derived from the original Greek verb for "baptize" (baptizo), which means to immerse. For it is derived from the original Greek verb "bapto", which means to cover wholly with a fluid. We are to be "buried" in the water of baptism (Romans 6:4, Colossians 2:12), and no one is buried by having some water merely sprinkled on his forehead. Even the Catholic Encyclopedia admits that "In the Latin Church, immersion seems to have prevailed until the twelfth century. After that time it is found in some places even as late as the sixteenth century. Infusion and aspersion, however, were growing common in the thirteenth century and gradually prevailed in the Western Church". On what basis did the Catholic Church, or any other church for that matter, abandon the requirement of immersion?

PanDeVida said in post 1573:

Now why do I say Catholic Church? Well, it is an "easy defense" and that is, who compiled Scripture into a Bible? Catholic Church.

Biblical Christians believe that the Bible is God's Word (2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4, John 8:31b), not because of some intellectual trust on their part in a purportedly infallible church, but because Biblical Christians have been granted God's miraculous gift of Christian faith (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b) and some measure of God's own Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:11-16). And so they are able to spiritually recognize if something is said by God (John 10:4,27; 1 Corinthians 14:37), or only by some "stranger" (John 10:5).

And Biblical Christians know that the Bible is God's Word not only because of the spiritual evidence of faith (Hebrews 11:1), but also because Jesus confirms that the entire Old Testament is true (Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 24:44-48). And the entire New Testament was written by eyewitnesses of Jesus (2 Peter 1:16; 1 John 1:1-4; 1 Corinthians 9:1, John 19:35, John 21:24; 1 Peter 5:1, Luke 24:48, Revelation 1:17-19), or their immediate followers (Luke 1:1-2, Hebrews 2:3). And Jesus' New Testament suffering and death for our sins on the Cross, and his physical resurrection from the dead on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:3-4), fulfilled Old Testament prophecy (Acts 26:22-23, Isaiah 53, Psalms 16:10, Acts 2:31). Also, no doctrine in the Bible has ever been proven false, so there is no reason for any Christian to reject any doctrine taught by the Bible.

It is the Bible which is able to make people wise unto salvation through faith which is in Jesus Christ (2 Timothy 3:15; 1 Peter 1:23-25, Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, James 1:18). All of the Bible's teachings were given by the inspiration of God, and so they are all true and God's Word (2 Timothy 3:16 to 4:4). Jesus says: "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed" (John 8:31). Christians must be willing to die before they would deny any part of his Word (Mark 8:35-38). One of Satan's prime aims is to get people to reject all or parts of God's Word and start believing something else which sounds better to them as humans (Genesis 3:1-6, Matthew 16:21-23; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), but which cannot save their souls, so that they will end up suffering in fire and brimstone with Satan and his fallen angels forever (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11).
 
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sculleywr

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You forget that God himself ordained scripture and personally penned the 10 commandments, IN STONE, the origin of an idiom that survives today, "written in stone".

You put the cart before the horse. Literacy is the response to God's command to proclaim the gospel and teach God's word to the world. Are you unfamiliar with how much the Church has been involved in translating the Bible into every language and teaching even remote people to be literate for the purpose of reading scripture?

Recognize the prophesy in Daniel that in the end times knowledge will increase.

Daniel 12:4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”​

Acknowledge that literacy is key to widespread knowledge. The invention of the printing press was a disruptive technology that enabled knowledge to be distributed to the masses. The book that has been printed the most is the Bible. Today we have a further disruptive technology for knowledge. The internet and Google now offer free, unbounded access to information on just about all the knowledge of the world. All knowledge is at the fingertips of all people. This is truly fulfillment of the Daniel prophesy.

Now for the claim that literacy is just a thing of western cultures, you need to do a little more research before making such crass statements.
What good is a written word to a person who can't read? He still has to receive it by oral modes and trust that the person speaking doesn't alter it. And he still has to remember it in the same way he remembers oral traditions, so to him, it is no different from oral tradition.

On top of that, what good is the Scripture to you if you have to travel 500 miles by foot to get to a single letter of it?
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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Since we just celebrated the resurrection of Jesus, and
the debate on Sola Scriptura and the Reformation will never die,
I resurrect my thread, to point out this is debated to death.

And yet I still have not been shown either
1) Another source of always incontrovertible truth besides scripture
2) A doctrine/teaching required for salvation, not in scripture
 
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thecolorsblend

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Western culture tends to place a huge amount of value upon literacy i have learned recently...i wonder if sola scriptura was developed because of our culture's natural biased to literacy as being the be all, end all of communication and record keeping.:scratch:
Interesting observation, actually. The ancients placed a tremendous premium on oration. It was of far greater value to them since written documents could not be questioned; public speakers could.

This "sola scriptura" thing could really only have developed in societies with higher literacy rates along with access to cheap publication methods; states of being which didn't exist in the first 1,500 years of the Church's existence and arguably don't exist on a global basis even now.
 
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Albion

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This "sola scriptura" thing could really only have developed in societies with higher literacy rates along with access to cheap publication methods; states of being which didn't exist in the first 1,500 years of the Church's existence and arguably don't exist on a global basis even now.

Not really. We have Early Church Fathers and the writers of the Nicene Creed crediting Scripture as the source of their doctrinal assertions--and nothing else. No Tradition, no Magisterium, nothing of that sort.

It did not take 1,500 years and a certain level of literacy for the notion of "Sacred Tradition" to develop, but it wasn't a belief of the Apostolic or the Ancient churches.
 
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fhansen

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If the word of God is not the only source of pure truth, what, then, is the document or person that could Vito what the Word of God says?
Nothing can veto God's Word. The Church was established to, among other things, correctly understand and proclaim God's Word, as we all desire to do.
 
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