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Easiest Defense of Sola Scriptura

Albion

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Regarding water baptism, some people feel that it can't be required for salvation, because baptism is a work, and salvation isn't based on works, but on faith alone
Well, it's not a "work," so they are wrong and there's no theological issue there.

A "work" is a good deed and you're right that performing them can't save anyone. However, the fact that the candidate has to walk to the baptismal font and bend over it or whatever while breathing in and out...doesn't make those actions be "works" in a religious sense :)

As noted by MennoSota, however, this seems far from a discussion of Sola Scriptura.
 
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Root of Jesse

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It's obvious that your statement that there were "little to no massacres" is wrong, and which is the other extreme of overblown, which some, not all, may have been. Certainly Islam fosters murderers also, and civil powers are right in combating them by the use of the sword.
Methinks you needs to learn what phrases mean, rather than taking them apart to decipher them.
In The Popes Against the Jews : The Vatican's Role in the Rise of Modern Anti-Semitism, historian David Kertzer notes,

So after marginalizing the role of lay Catholics you invoke one as if he represents historical Catholic treatment of the Jews?

I left off with The Vatican's Role in the Rise of Modern Anti-Semitism, and while we could look at the Catholic persecution of the Jews in Inquisitions, let us look at Rome attitudes toward the Jewish homeland:

Until 1948 the Pope was motivated by the traditional Vatican opposition to Zionism. Vatican opposition to a Jewish homeland stemmed largely from theological doctrines regarding Judaism.[40] In 1904, the Zionist leader Theodor Herzl obtained an audience with Pope Pius X in the hope of persuading the pontiff to support the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine. The pope's response was: "Non possumus"--"We cannot."
Absolutely incorrect. Your supposition that being against a Jewish state is opposition to Zionism, that is.
In 1917, Pius X's successor, Pope Benedict XV, equally refused to support any concept for a Jewish state. Minerbi writes that when a League of Nations mandate were being proposed for Palestine, the Vatican was disturbed by the prospect of a (Protestant) British mandate over the Holy Land, but a Jewish state was anathema to it.[27][41]
My Wiki contradicts your wiki...
Already during the 19th century, the Holy See was concerned about the control over the holy places in Palestine, especially in Jerusalem. In 1887, Pope Leo XIII issued a motu proprio titled Domini et Salvatoris, in which he called for the establishment of a Catholic fund to maintain the holy places in Jerusalem and the Holy Land.

The early Zionists sought to assure the Vatican of the sanctity of Christian holy places, but the Vatican was not satisfied with these assurances. The Vatican was not invited to attend the 1920 San Remo conference, which decided the fate of Palestine, and had to rely on France and Italy to represent its interests. The San Remo conference set aside a Protectorate of the Holy See. According to Minerbi, the Vatican's objectives were ultimately undermined by the Zionist Organization's support for a British Mandate.[27]

But the Vatican did not give up on its objective of direct Catholic control of the Holy Land and the holy places. The Vatican's idea for an international commission to resolve claims on the holy places had been incorporated in article 95 of the Treaty of Sèvres, and was repeated as articles 13 and 14 of the Mandate. Britain assumed responsibility for the holy places under article 13 of the Mandate. However, Britain never created the International Commission on Holy Places to resolve the other claims in accordance with article 14 of the Mandate.[28]

The Vatican's official position on the status of Jerusalem was in favour of an internationalization of Jerusalem, in order to keep the holy places away from either Israeli or Arab sovereignty.
On 22 June 1943, Amleto Giovanni Cicognani, the Apostolic Delegate to Washington D.C. wrote to US President Franklin Roosevelt, asking him to prevent the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine. ...
If the greater part of Palestine is given to the Jewish people, this would be a severe blow to the religious attachment of Catholics to this land. To have the Jewish people in the majority would be to interfere with the peaceful exercise of these rights in the Holy Land already vested in Catholics.
It is true that at one time Palestine was inhabited by the Hebrew Race, but there is no axiom in history to substantiate the necessity of a people returning to a country they left nineteen centuries before.[42]

The Vatican view of the Near East was dominated by a Cold War perception that Arab Muslims are conservative but religious, whereas Israeli Zionists are modernist but atheists. The Vatican's then Foreign Minister, Domenico Tardini (without being even a bishop, but a close collaborator of Pius XII) said to the French ambassador in November 1957, according to an Israeli diplomatic dispatch from Rome to Jerusalem:
"I have always been of the opinion that there never was an overriding reason for this state to be established. It was the fault of the western states. Its existence is an inherent risk factor for war in the Middle East. Now, Israel exists, and there is certainly no way to destroy it, but every day we pay the price of this error."[45]

by initially siding with Palestinian claims for compensations on political, social and financial levels, the Vatican shaped its Middle Eastern policy since 1948 upon two pillars. One was based on political and theological reservations against Zionism,... the Holy See has also maintained reservations of its own. The more established the Zionist Yishuv became in Mandatory Palestine, the more political reservations the Vatican added to its initial theological inhibitions.[51]

On 26 May 1955, when the Israeli Philharmonic Orchestra performed Beethoven's Seventh Symphony at the Vatican as an act of respect for Pius XII, the Vatican still refrained from mentioning the name of the State, preferring instead to describe the orchestra as a collection of "Jewish musicians of fourteen different nationalities."[53]

Paul VI was Pope from 21 June 1963 to 6 August 1978. He strongly defended inter-religious dialogue in the spirit of Nostra Aetate. He was also the first Pope to mention the Palestinian people by name...On 15 January 1973, the Pope met Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir at the Vatican, which was the first meeting between a Pope and an Israeli Prime Minister. At the meeting, the Pope brought up the issues of peace in the Middle East, refugees and the status of the holy places, but no agreement was reached.[58] According to Meir's own account of the meeting, the Pope criticized the Israeli government for its treatment of the Palestinians, and she said in reply: Your Holiness, do you know what my earliest memory is? A pogrom in Kiev. When we were merciful and when we had no homeland and when we were weak, we were led to the gas chambers.[59]

Relations since 1993[edit]
The opening towards the State of Israel by the Vatican was partially a result of Israel's effective control over the entire Holy City since 1967. This forced the Vatican to introduce a pragmatic dimension to its well-known declaratory policy of political denial. Hence, since 1967, Vatican diplomacy vis-à-vis Israel began to waver between two parameters:[/FONT]
  • A policy of strict and consequent non-recognition of Israel's sovereignty over Jerusalem, far beyond the usual interpretation of international law, as the Holy See still embraces its own ideas regarding the special status of Jerusalem.[/FONT]
  • A pragmatic policy, through which Catholic interests can best be served by having a working relationship with the party who exercises effective authority and control in Jerusalem.[/FONT]
The establishment of full diplomatic relations in 1993–94, on the other hand, was a belated political consequence of the theological change towards Judaism as reflected in Nostra Aetate. It was also a result of the new political reality, which began with the Madrid COnference and later continued with the Oslo peace process, after which the Vatican could not continue to ignore a State that even the Palestinians had initiated formal relations with.
Pope Benedict XVI has declared that he wishes to maintain a positive Christian-Jewish and Vatican-Israel relationship. Indeed, on the occasion of the 60th anniversary of the Jewish state, Benedict stated: "The Holy See joins you in giving thanks to the Lord that the aspirations of the Jewish people for a home in the land of their fathers have been fulfilled,"[72] which may be seen as a theological justification of the return of the Jewish People to Israel – indeed, an acceptance that has placed all previous Catholic denials of Zionism in the shade. On the other hand, he has also stressed the political neutrality of the Holy See in internal Mideast conflicts. Like John Paul II, he was disappointed by the non-resolution of the 1993 Fundamental Accord; and like his predecessor, he also expressed support for a Palestinian state alongside Israel. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_See–Israel_relations[/FONT]


Evangelical support for Jews.
In contrast,
46% of white evangelical (blacks only make up 6% of evangelicals) Protestants, versus 33% of Prots and only 21% of Catholics say that the U.S. is not providing enough support for Israel. (2014) — http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...or-israel-in-u-s-cuts-across-religious-lines/
As for the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, asked whether they sympathize with either side, 72% of white evangelicals sided with Israel, versus 56% of Prots and 46% of Caths overall.http://www.people-press.org/files/legacy-pdf/3-19-13 Foreign Policy Release.pdf
Of course, this is consistent with the stats which shows 82% of white evangelical Protestants say that Israel was given to the Jewish people by God, versus 64% of Prots and just 34% of white Catholics, while 45% of Catholics outright deny that it was (others do not know). — http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...ews-say-god-gave-israel-to-the-jewish-people/

Egregious ecumenism in contrast;
In addition, Rome being "friendlier"to Israel means not simply affirming Jews and the right to live in peace but also means affirming that Muslims worship the same God as Jews and Christians, that together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.” (Lumen Gentium 16, November 21, 1964)

W
hich is blasphemous. For with Allah, we are not dealing with an utterly ambiguous "unknown god" as in Acts 17, which had no express revelation and could said to be the true God they were looking for. But Allah is much a distinct God, and in the name of this false deity are the contradictory and skewed Biblical stories of the Qur'an, besides adding its own, and which denies the very essence of the gospel, that of the Divine Son of God procuring salvation with His own sinless shed blood! Yet again and again popes comfort Muslims by assuring them they have the true God, while any gospel is largely replaced by platitudes for peace.

Rome says Muslims the worship the same God as Catholics, "the one, living and subsistent, merciful and almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth," and "strive to submit themselves without reserve to the hidden decrees of God, just as Abraham submitted himself to God’s plan." -Second Vatican Council, Nostra Aetate 3, October 28, 1965

And,
We feel sure that as representatives of Islam, you join in our prayers to the Almighty, that he may grant all African believers the desire for pardon and reconciliation so often commended in the Gospels and in the Qur’an... We gladly recall also those confessors of the Muslim faith who were the first to suffer death, in the year 1848, for refusing to transgress the precepts of their religion.” — Paul VI, address to the Islamic communities of Uganda, August 1, 1969.

I deliberately address you as brothers: that is certainly what we are, because we are members of the same human family, whose efforts, whether people realize it or not, tend toward God and the truth that comes from him. But we are especially brothers in God, who created us and whom we are trying to reach, in our own ways, through faith, prayer and worship, through the keeping of his law and through submission to his designs...

Dear Muslims, my brothers: I would like to add that we Christians, just like you, seek the basis and model of mercy in God himself, the God to whom your Book gives the very beautiful name of al-Rahman, while the Bible calls him al-Rahum, the Merciful One.” - John Paul II, address to representatives of Muslims of the Philippines, February 20, 1981


As Christians and Muslims, we encounter one another in faith in the one God, our Creator and guide, our just and merciful judge. - John Paul II, address to representatives of the Muslims of Belgium, May 19, 1985

We believe in the same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection...Both of us believe in one God, the only God, - John Paul II , address to the young Muslims of Morocco, August 19, 1985

Christians and Muslims, together with the followers of the Jewish religion, belong to what can be called ‘the tradition of Abraham.’..Our Creator and our final judge desires that we live together. Our God is a God of peace, who desires peace among those who live according to His commandments. Our God is the holy God who desires that those who call upon Him live in ways that are holy and upright. -John Paul II, address to Islamic leaders of Senegal, Dakar, February 22, 1992 -http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/interreligious/islam/vatican-council-and-papal-statements-on-islam.cfm[/FONT]
Protection of the sites where Jesus' life occurred was more important to the Church than political issues between the Arabs and JEws.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Thus, it is only a valid jurisdiction upon informed, uncoerced consent.
Right, we don't force consent at all. We do make pronouncements, but it's up to you to follow them or not.
Government by consent is the only lawful government.
Lincoln removed that. Consent is manufactured by fraud and coercion routinely. That's why are courts administer the UCC instead of constitutional common law.
Ignorance of the law is no excuse, so "legal definitions" we're invented to camouflage conflict of interest and other statist abuses of our God given rights... most of all, to establish jurisdiction.

 
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Root of Jesse

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"ALL of scripture" is mentioned here Luke 24:27 -- are you aware of it??
Define what "All of Scripture" means. Please.
 
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Victor E.

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This is not going to be some long winded word game. It is easy.

1) God's Word is True, incontrovertibly true.
2) Scripture is God's Word.
3) Scripture is incontrovertibly true.

4) Prove another source of incontrovertible truth.
5) No other physical source of incontrovertible truth on earth has been proven.

By default, there is only Sola Scriptura.

Yes, there have been multiple threads on SS. The problem is that all the attacks on SS put the burden to prove there are no other source of incontrovertible truth on the holders to SS. How ridiculous is that? The burden is on those that believe in another source of incontrovertible truth. Despite being asked multiple times in other threads, no proof has been given for incontrovertible truth in any other earthly source.

So if you think anything but SS, I challenge you to prove to me another source of incontrovertible truth.

Die by the law, be justified by the law. Live by the Spirit, and be justified by faith. I choose life, and life abundantly. I wish you the best.
 
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BobRyan

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Define what "All of Scripture" means. Please.

Well at the time of Luke 24:27 - Josephus says it is what we today call the 39 books of the OT.. the Hebrew OT - were a fixed content has been stored in the Temple for over 300 years.
 
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sculleywr

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Well at the time of Luke 24:27 - Josephus says it is what we today call the 39 books of the OT.. the Hebrew OT - were a fixed content has been stored in the Temple for over 300 years.
Josephus included the book of Baruch in the Old Testament. So saying you use his canon is false, because you do not include the canon of Josephus. You use the canon of the Masoretes. That is the first Hebrew canon consisting of only 39 books. Your continued misinformation campaign concerning the Canon of the Old Testament that existed at the time of Christ, which was a hotly debated topic at the time, contrary to your belief, with four camps on the topic, with the Sadducees holding only the Torah was Scripture, the Pharisees holding only their Hebrew texts, and the majority of the rest using the Greek Septuagint because that is what those who could read mostly read, as Hebrew was not the majority language any more, and then another canon in between held by Pliny and Josephus that included the book of Baruch. The idea that the Old Testament was a fixed construct in the time of Christ is a myth. It was a hotly contested topic which continued to be contested for centuries, with the final Masoretic Canon becoming the foundation of the Jews in the 5th century, while the Septuagint was already the standard of the early Church, despite the protest of a minority, by the second century. The vast majority of Christians used the Septuagint as their canon, including St. Athanasius, whose confirmation of the canonicity of the Septuagint was accepted along with his canon of the New Testament in the Council of Carthage.

The Canon you see in Protestant Bibles today was never used by the Church prior to the Reformation. It was never used because the primary purpose of the removal of those books by the Jews was to remove references to Christ from their canon.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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Methinks you needs to learn what phrases mean, rather than taking them apart to decipher them.Absolutely incorrect. Your supposition that being against a Jewish state is opposition to Zionism, that is.
More sophistry, as this is a distinction without a difference. Again WP:
a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism
My Wiki contradicts your wiki...
Once gain it seems you are seeing what does not exist. I see no real contradiction, just more of the conflicts description, in which you try to the Vatican's opposition to Isrealite sovereignty the case for its long term animus against the Jewish homeland, which, as WP states,"stemmed largely from theological doctrines regarding Judaism."

the Vatican did not give up on its objective of direct Catholic control of the Holy Land and the holy places.
Yes, "the Vatican, the Italian, and the French governments continued to press their own legal claims on the basis of the former Protectorate of the Holy See and the French Protectorate of Jerusalem." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_See
And whose land was it before Rome and other conquers? Which God said was never to be sold or relinquished.
The Vatican's official position on the status of Jerusalem was in favour of an internationalization of Jerusalem, in order to keep the holy places away from either Israeli or Arab sovereignty.
Protection of the sites where Jesus' life occurred was more important to the Church than political issues between the Arabs and JEws.
No, her lust was for direct control, either thru or without internationalization of Jerusalem, which is arrogance in either case. The Jews were given the land by God, and lost it by disobedience, but after great suffering the Hebrew people regained a good portion of it, and defended it many times at the cost of much of her own blood and with manifest Divine help, and as a sovereign nation no other entity has a right to control parts out it, any more than the UN does here.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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So what's your problem with Catholics saying we are the body of Christ (of course, showing it as well)? ...I didn't say there was only one Catholic Church, though that is true.
Actually, you did indeed say that "There is only one Catholic Church, the one Christ founded, to which Paul referred (One faith, one baptism, one Lord)."
" I said that there is only one Body of Christ, and that is catholic, "
Which is a distinction without a difference. If only one Catholic Church, the one Christ founded, to which Paul referred If the one Body of Christ which Paul referred is the one Catholic Church then its excludes all others from being part of that body.

Or are you using "catholic" as saying that Church of Christ subsists also in Christian communities separated from Rome? If so, what do you do with the RCs who disagree with you? And if not, then you are saying that the church which Paul referred to is only the RCC, as charged.
" I guess you don't understand what "abandon the See of Peter" means to us, today, do you..."
Which, as your traditionalists charge, is obviously different than the time in which those who are not in submission to Rome, who do not remain in the bosom of the RCC, were excluded as being part of the body of Christ.

The body of Christ "the universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved," is described as that which believes in the Cath Eucharist, and that she has always held that they were "outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium," and that "in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors," that "all who want to belong to the true and only Church of Christ must honor and obey this Apostolic See and Roman Pontiff," for "subjection to the Roman pontiff is necessary for salvation for all Christ's faithful," so that "even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church," and anathematizes those who hold "that the Roman Pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy." Sources

You can spin this to mean that properly baptized faithful Prots fulfil all these requirements, and thus can be part of this body, but which makes your magisterial office and or you look like sophists.
 
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PeaceByJesus

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The idea that the Old Testament was a fixed construct in the time of Christ is a myth. It was a hotly contested topic which continued to be contested for centuries, with the final Masoretic Canon becoming the foundation of the Jews in the 5th century,
Actually when the Hebrew canon became fixed is a hotly contested topic, but that they did not consider the Deutros (Apocrypha) Scripture is rather well established, and Septuagint will not help you here, and resulted in the general rejection of apocryphal books by 4th c. Jerome as being Scripture proper.

And that there was a generally accepted canon by the time of Christ is manifest by His and apostles very references to "Scripture" or "it is written" as being the word of God, and to the tripartite division of the law and the prophets and the writings, (Lk. 24:44) which is thought to correspond to a Palestinian canon of the Scribes and Pharisees who sat in the seat of Moses, but which does not settle the question what these categories precisely consisted of, besides the quotations from them in the NT as being the word of God.

For it is true that while even pagans as well as non canonical books such as Enoch could be quoted in the NT, the only OT texts which are called Scripture or the word of God or authoritatively "it is written" in the NT are from the Hebrew canon. Yet which does not include all the 22 (=39) books, and thus we must consider other evidence.

[Josephus] also limits his books to those written between the time of Moses and Artaxerxes, thus eliminating some apocryphal books, observing that "(Jewish) history hath been written since Artaxerxes very particularly but hath not been esteemed of the like authority with the former by our forefathers, because there hath not been an exact succession of prophets since that time."

Also in support of the Jewish canon excluding the apocrypha we also have Philo, the Alexandrian Jewish philosopher (20 BC-AD 40) who never quoted from the Apocrypha as inspired, though he prolifically quoted the Old Testament and recognized the threefold division

While other have different opinions, in the Tosfeta (supplement to the Mishnah) it states, "...the Holy Spirit departed after the death of Haggai, Zecharaiah, and Malachi. Thus Judaism defined the limits of the canon that was and still is accepted within the Jewish community." Once that limit was defined, there was little controversy. Some discussion was held over Ecclesiastes and Song of Songs, but the core and bulk of the OT was never disputed. (Tosfeta Sota 13.2, quoted by German theologian Leonhard Rost [1896-1979], Judaism Outside the Hebrew Canon. Nashville: Abingdon, 1971; http://www.tektonics.org/lp/otcanon.html)

● The available historical evidence indicates that in the Jewish mind a collection of books existed from at least 400 B.C. in three groups, two of them fluid, 22 (24 by another manner of counting) in number, which were considered by the Jews from among the many other existing books as the only ones for which they would die rather than add to or take away from them, books which they considered veritably from God...The Apocrypha are not included. (http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/rev-henry/11_apocrypha_young.pdf)

● Although some apocryphal books contain a few texts which correspond to New Testament ones, this is also true of some works which are found outside the apocrypha, which the Bible sometimes quotes from. (Acts 17:28; Jude 1:14) Texts from the apocrypha were occasionally quoted in early church writings, and were considered worthy reading even if not included as Scripture, but the apocrypha was not accepted in such early O.T. lists as that of Melito (AD 170) bishop of the church in Sardis, an inland city of Asia Minor, who gives a list of the Hebrew canon, minus Esther, and makes no mention of any of the apocryphal/deuterocanonical books:

Of Moses five, Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus, Deuteronomy; Joshua the son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, four of Kingdoms1 two of Chronicles, the Psalms of David, Solomon's Proverbs or Wisdom,2 Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Job; of the Prophets: Isaiah, Jeremiah,3 the Twelve [minor prophets] in one book, Daniel, Ezekiel, Esdras.4

1. 1 and 2 Samuel and 1 and 2 Kings.

2. Proverbs was sometimes called "Wisdom" according to Eusebius, (Ec clesiastical History 4.22.9.)

3. Understood to include Lamentations, not being the custom of the times to list it separately.

4.Ezra and Nehemiah were then counted as one book, and sometimes was called simply Esdras (Greek for Ezra).
(http://www.bible-researcher.com/melito.html)

● Origen in the 2nd century (c. 240) rejected the apocrypha as he held to the Palestinian canon (plus the Letter of Jeremiah), and likewise Cyril of Jerusalem (plus Baruch), but like St. Hilary of Poitiers (300-368) and Rufinus who also rejected the apocrypha, Origen used them or parts thereof , as others also did with these second class books.

● Jerome (340-420), the preeminent 3rd century scholar rejected the Apocrypha, as they did not have the sanction of Jewish antiquity, and were not received by all, and did not generally work toward "confirmation of the doctrine of the Church." His lists of the 24 books of the O.T. Scriptures corresponds to the 39 of the Protestant canon,

Jerome wrote in his Prologue to the Books of the Kings,

“This preface to the Scriptures may serve as a helmeted [i.e. defensive] introduction to all the books which we turn from Hebrew into Latin, so that we may be assured that what is outside of them must be placed aside among the Apocryphal writings. Wisdom, therefore, which generally bears the name of Solomon, and the book of Jesus the Son of Sirach, and Judith, and Tobias, and the Shepherd [of Hermes?] are not in the canon. The first book of Maccabees is found in Hebrew, but the second is Greek, as can be proved from the very style.

In his preface to Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs he also states,

“As, then, the Church reads Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees, but does not admit them among the canonical Scriptures, so let it read these two volumes for the edification of the people, not to give authority to doctrines of the Church.” (Shaff, Henry Wace, A Select Library of Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church, p. 492)

The Catholic Encyclopedia (in the face of ancient opposition) states,

An analysis of Jerome's expressions on the deuterocanonicals, in various letters and prefaces, yields the following results: first, he strongly doubted their inspiration; secondly, the fact that he occasionally quotes them, and translated some of them as a concession to ecclesiastical tradition, is an involuntary testimony on his part to the high standing these writings enjoyed in the Church at large, and to the strength of the practical tradition which prescribed their readings in public worship. Obviously, the inferior rank to which the deuteros were relegated by authorities like Origen, Athanasius, and Jerome, was due to too rigid a conception of canonicity, one demanding that a book, to be entitled to this supreme dignity, must be received by all, must have the sanction of Jewish antiquity, and must moreover be adapted not only to edification, but also to the "confirmation of the doctrine of the Church", to borrow Jerome's phrase. (Catholic Encyclopedia, Canon of the Old Testament; http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm)

Also,
Gregory of Nazianzus (330 – 390) concurred with the canon of Anastasius.

● The list of O.T. books by the Council of Laodicea (363) may have been added later, and is that of Athanasius but with Esther included. It also contains the standard canon of the N.T. except that it omits Revelation, as does Cyril, thought to be due to excessive use of it by the Montanist cults

● John of Damascus, eminent theologian of the Eastern Church in the 8th century, and Nicephorus, patriarch of Constantinople in the 9th century also rejected the apocrypha, as did others, in part or in whole.

● The fourth century historian Euesibius also provides an early Christian list of both Old and New Testament books. In his Ecclesiastical History (written about A.D. 324), in three places quoting from Josephus, Melito and Origen, lists of the books (slightly differing) according to the Hebrew Canon. These he calls in the first place 'the Canonical Scriptures of the Old Testament, undisputed among the Hebrews;' and again,'the acknowledged Scriptures of the Old Testament;' and, lastly, 'the Holy Scriptures of the Old Testament.' In his Chronicle he distinctly separates the Books of Maccabees from the 'Divine Scriptures;' and elsewhere mentions Ecclesiasticus and Wisdom as 'controverted' books. (http://www.bible-researcher.com/eusebius.html)

● Cyril of Jerusalem (d. circa. 385 AD) exhorts his readers “Of these read the two and twenty books, but have nothing to do with the apocryphal writings. Study earnestly these only which we read openly in the Church. Far wiser and more pious than thyself were the Apostles, and the bishops of old time, the presidents of the Church who handed down these books. Being therefore a child of the Church, trench thou not upon its statutes. And of the Old Testament, as we have said, study the two and twenty books, which, if thou art desirous of learning, strive to remember by name, as I recite them.” (http://www.bible-researcher.com/cyril.html)


His lists supports the canon adopted by the Protestants, combining books after the Hebrew canon and excludes the apocrypha, though he sometimes used them, as per the standard practice by which the apocrypha was printed in Protestant Bibles, and includes Baruch as part of Jeremiah.

● Likewise Rufinus:

38.But it should also be known that there are other books which are called not "canonical" but "ecclesiastical" by the ancients: 5 that is, the Wisdom attributed to Solomon, and another Wisdom attributed to the son of Sirach, which the Latins called by the title Ecclesiasticus, designating not the author of the book but its character. To the same class belong the book of Tobit and the book of Judith, and the books of Maccabees.

With the New Testament there is the book which is called the Shepherd of Hermas, and that which is called The Two Ways 6 and the Judgment of Peter.7 They were willing to have all these read in the churches but not brought forward for the confirmation of doctrine. The other writings they named "apocrypha,"8 which they would not have read in the churches.

These are what the fathers have handed down to us, which, as I said, I have thought it opportune to set forth in this place, for the instruction of those who are being taught the first elements of the Church and of the Faith, that they may know from what fountains of the Word of God they should draw for drinking. (http://www.bible-researcher.com/rufinus.html)


●Summing up most of the above, the Catholic Encyclopedia states,

At Jerusalem there was a renascence, perhaps a survival, of Jewish ideas, the tendency there being distinctly unfavourable to the deuteros. St. Cyril of that see, while vindicating for the Church the right to fix the Canon, places them among the apocrypha and forbids all books to be read privately which are not read in the churches. In Antioch and Syria the attitude was more favourable. St. Epiphanius shows hesitation about the rank of the deuteros; he esteemed them, but they had not the same place as the Hebrew books in his regard. The historian Eusebius attests the widespread doubts in his time; he classes them as antilegomena, or disputed writings, and, like Athanasius, places them in a class intermediate between the books received by all and the apocrypha. The 59th (or 60th) canon of the provincial Council of Laodicea (the authenticity of which however is contested) gives a catalogue of the Scriptures entirely in accord with the ideas of St. Cyril of Jerusalem. On the other hand, the Oriental versions and Greek manuscripts of the period are more liberal; the extant ones have all the deuterocanonicals and, in some cases, certain apocrypha.

The influence of Origen's and Athanasius's restricted canon naturally spread to the West. St. Hilary of Poitiers and Rufinus followed their footsteps, excluding the deuteros from canonical rank in theory, but admitting them in practice. The latter styles them "ecclesiastical" books, but in authority unequal to the other Scriptures. St. Jerome cast his weighty suffrage on the side unfavourable to the disputed books... (Catholic Encyclopedia, Canon of the Old Testament)


● The Catholic Encyclopedia also states as regards the Middle Ages,

In the Latin Church, all through the Middle Ages [5th century to the 15th century] we find evidence of hesitation about the character of the deuterocanonicals. There is a current friendly to them, another one distinctly unfavourable to their authority and sacredness, while wavering between the two are a number of writers whose veneration for these books is tempered by some perplexity as to their exact standing, and among those we note St. Thomas Aquinas. Few are found to unequivocally acknowledge their canonicity. (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm) ^

Though Jerome later is said to have latter included apocryphal books, likewise Luther includes apocryphal books in his Bible, but not as Scripture proper, following the status men such as Jerome assigned them.

while the Septuagint was already the standard of the early Church, despite the protest of a minority, by the second century.
But that the Septuagint of the 1st century contained the Deutros is what is unsubstantiated, and the great lack of uniformity even among later mss at best indicates an uncertain status, and does not help your case.

British scholar R. T. Beckwith states, Philo of Alexandria's writings show it to have been the same as the Palestinian. He refers to the three familiar sections, and he ascribes inspiration to many books in all three, but never to any of the Apocrypha....The Apocrypha were known in the church from the start, but the further back one goes, the more rarely are they treated as inspired...

Manuscripts of anything like the capacity of Codex Alexandrinus were not used in the first centuries of the Christian era, and since in the second century AD the Jews seem largely to have discarded the Septuagint…there can be no real doubt that the comprehensive codices of the Septuagint, which start appearing in the fourth century AD, are all of Christian origin. (Roger T. Beckwith, "The Canon of the Old Testament" in Phillip Comfort, The Origin of the Bible [Wheaton: Tyndale House, 2003] pp. 57-64)


Nor is there agreement between the codices which of the Apocrypha include...Moreover, all three codices [Vaticanus, Sinaiticus and Alexandrinus], according to Kenyon, were produced in Egypt, yet the contemporary Christian lists of the biblical books drawn up in Egypt by Athanasius and (very likely) pseudo-Athanasius are much more critical, excluding all apocryphal books from the canon, and putting them in a separate appendix. (Roger Beckwith, [Anglican priest, Oxford BD and Lambeth DD], The Old Testament Canon of the New Testament Church [Eerdmans 1986], p. 382, 383; http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2008/01/legendary-alexandrian-canon.html)

Edward Earle Ellis finds, “No two Septuagint codices contain the same apocrypha, and no uniform Septuagint ‘Bible’ was ever the subject of discussion in the patristic church. In view of these facts the Septuagint codices appear to have been originally intended more as service books than as a defined and normative canon of Scripture,” (E. E. Ellis, The Old Testament in Early Christianity [Baker 1992], 34-35.

Likewise Gleason Archer affirms,

Even in the case of the Septuagint, the apocryphal books maintain a rather uncertain existence. The Codex Vaticanus (B) lacks [besides 3 and 4] 1 and 2 Maccabees (canonical, according to Rome), but includes 1 Esdras (non-canonical, according to Rome). The Sinaiticus (Aleph) omits Baruch (canonical, according to Rome), but includes 4 Maccabees (non-canonical, according to Rome)... Thus it turns out that even the three earliest MSS or the LXX show considerable uncertainty as to which books constitute the list of the Apocrypha.. (Archer, Gleason L., Jr., "A Survey of Old Testament Introduction", Moody Press, Chicago, IL, Rev. 1974, p. 75; http://www.provethebible.net/T2-Integ/B-1101.htm)

The German historian Martin Hengel writes, “Sinaiticus contains Barnabas and Hermas, Alexandrinus 1 and 2 Clement.” “Codex Alexandrinus...includes the LXX as we know it in Rahlfs’ edition, with all four books of Maccabees and the fourteen Odes appended to Psalms.” “...the Odes (sometimes varied in number), attested from the fifth century in all Greek Psalm manuscripts, contain three New Testament ‘psalms’: the Magnificat, the Benedictus, the Nunc Dimittis from Luke’s birth narrative, and the conclusion of the hymn that begins with the ‘Gloria in Excelsis.’ This underlines the fact that the LXX, although, itself consisting of a collection of Jewish documents, wishes to be a Christian book.” (Martin Hengel, The Septuagint as Christian Scripture [Baker 2004], pp. 57-59)

Also,

The Targums did not include these books, nor the earliest versions of the Peshitta, and the apocryphal books are seen to have been later additions, and later versions of the LXX varied in regard to which books of the apocrypha they contained. “Nor is there agreement between the codices which of the Apocrypha include. (Eerdmans 1986), 382.
The vast majority of Christians used the Septuagint as their canon, including St. Athanasius, whose confirmation of the canonicity of the Septuagint was accepted along with his canon of the New Testament in the Council of Carthage.

Which is more evidence against the early post-apostolic church holding to the RC apocrypha for (and see above) Athanasius (c. 367), actually excluded the Book of Esther among the "7 books not in the canon but to be read" along with the Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus), Judith, Tobit, the Didache, and the Shepherd of Hermas. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasius_of_Alexandria#New_Testament_canon)
The Canon you see in Protestant Bibles today was never used by the Church prior to the Reformation.
Which is more presumption, as you only assume that the NT church held to the deutros even though nothing from it is quoted or referenced from it as Scripture, or authoritative as "it is written," "thus saith the Lord" or the like, while possible (sparse) references to apocryphal texts no more make such Scripture proper than does even quoting truth from Enoch or pagan poets.

And in reality, scholarly disagreements over the canonicity (proper) of certain books continued down through the centuries and right into Trent, until it provided the first "infallible," indisputable canon — after the death of Luther.
"It was never used because the primary purpose of the removal of those books by the Jews was to remove references to Christ from their canon."
Which is another unproven assumption, since "removal"presumes these books were held as being Scripture at least by those who sat in the seat of Moses, which is doubtful. Note also that the belief that there was a Council of Jamnia which settled the Hebrew canon is largely abandoned by modern scholars.

As for references to Christ in the deutros, outside of the falsely-attributed Wisdom of Solomon (yet which I think is the most Scripture-like apocryphal book), and which may have been written after the resurrection, where are these references to Christ in the apocryphal books, especially that are so substantial that Jews would remove them from their canon?

If this was their motivation then you would think they would have removed the quoted texts which the NT actually does invoke as referring to Christ, which are from the Hebrew canon.
 
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Root of Jesse

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This is not going to be some long winded word game. It is easy.

1) God's Word is True, incontrovertibly true.
2) Scripture is God's Word.
3) Scripture is incontrovertibly true.

4) Prove another source of incontrovertible truth.
5) No other physical source of incontrovertible truth on earth has been proven.

By default, there is only Sola Scriptura.

Yes, there have been multiple threads on SS. The problem is that all the attacks on SS put the burden to prove there are no other source of incontrovertible truth on the holders to SS. How ridiculous is that? The burden is on those that believe in another source of incontrovertible truth. Despite being asked multiple times in other threads, no proof has been given for incontrovertible truth in any other earthly source.

So if you think anything but SS, I challenge you to prove to me another source of incontrovertible truth.
Scripture is God's Word, no doubt. The thing is, we don't believe it is ALL of God's Word.
There has actually been NO attack on Scripture at all. The question is-is Scripture ALL of God's Word, or is it a subset of God's Word? We believe it's the latter, and therefore, Sola Scriptura is not. Even Scripture doesn't say it is the only Word of God...
 
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Root of Jesse

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Well at the time of Luke 24:27 - Josephus says it is what we today call the 39 books of the OT.. the Hebrew OT - were a fixed content has been stored in the Temple for over 300 years.
Actually, that's not so. The Sadducees had a different body of Scripture, and it didn't include the Prophets and Wisdom literature. So the question still stands.
 
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Root of Jesse

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No, her lust was for direct control, either thru or without internationalization of Jerusalem, which is arrogance in either case. The Jews were given the land by God, and lost it by disobedience, but after great suffering the Hebrew people regained a good portion of it, and defended it many times at the cost of much of her own blood and with manifest Divine help, and as a sovereign nation no other entity has a right to control parts out it, any more than the UN does here.
Now we're getting into your opinion, which is like everyone else's.
 
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Root of Jesse

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Actually, you did indeed say that "There is only one Catholic Church, the one Christ founded, to which Paul referred (One faith, one baptism, one Lord)."
Which is a distinction without a difference. If only one Catholic Church, the one Christ founded, to which Paul referred If the one Body of Christ which Paul referred is the one Catholic Church then its excludes all others from being part of that body.
No, it doesn't. I'm sorry you can't tell the difference.
Or are you using "catholic" as saying that Church of Christ subsists also in Christian communities separated from Rome? If so, what do you do with the RCs who disagree with you? And if not, then you are saying that the church which Paul referred to is only the RCC, as charged.
I have repeatedly said that there is only one Church Christ founded, and that all of us baptized conform to Christ imperfectly, regardless of what label we put on ourselves. As for "RC's" that disagree with me, so what? There's "RC's" that disagree with me on abortion and gay marriage, too. The Church is right, not necessarily those who claim to be part of The Church.
Which, as your traditionalists charge, is obviously different than the time in which those who are not in submission to Rome, who do not remain in the bosom of the RCC, were excluded as being part of the body of Christ.
See above. People who all claim to be Democrats, Republicans, or members of any denomination don't agree on everything. That's why they tend to splinter from the main group. The main group still exists, though.
The body of Christ "the universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved," is described as that which believes in the Cath Eucharist, and that she has always held that they were "outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium," and that "in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors," that "all who want to belong to the true and only Church of Christ must honor and obey this Apostolic See and Roman Pontiff," for "subjection to the Roman pontiff is necessary for salvation for all Christ's faithful," so that "even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church," and anathematizes those who hold "that the Roman Pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy." Sources

You can spin this to mean that properly baptized faithful Prots fulfil all these requirements, and thus can be part of this body, but which makes your magisterial office and or you look like sophists.
Your opinion means little, really.
 
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Albion

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Scripture is God's Word, no doubt. The thing is, we don't believe it is ALL of God's Word.
Very well. So we agree to what we mean when we say "Tradition."

There has actually been NO attack on Scripture at all.
On that I have to disagree, my friend. There have been many attacks by proponents of the Bible on these forums. That's not to say that you have done so, but there certainly have been a lot of putdowns of Scripture posted.

The question is-is Scripture ALL of God's Word, or is it a subset of God's Word? We believe it's the latter, and therefore, Sola Scriptura is not. Even Scripture doesn't say it is the only Word of God...
It also doesn't "say" that the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ. Does that mean we are intellectually obligated to believe that it IS actually revelation? And how many other writings that the Bible doesn't comment on fall into the same category?
 
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sculleywr

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Very well. So we agree to what we mean when we say "Tradition."


On that I have to disagree, my friend. There have been many attacks by proponents of the Bible on these forums. That's not to say that you have done so, but there certainly have been a lot of putdowns of Scripture posted.


It also doesn't "say" that the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ. Does that mean we are intellectually obligated to believe that it IS actually revelation? And how many other writings that the Bible doesn't comment on fall into the same category?
Without the Tradition of the Church, what authority does a person have to declare any canon to be better than another? But this begs the question:

If the Tradition is authoritative enough to say what Scripture is and isn't, then why is it not also authoritative enough to say what Scripture means? How can it tell you what it is without telling you what it means? IT's a double standard at the best, and a paradox at worst.
 
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Very well. So we agree to what we mean when we say "Tradition."


On that I have to disagree, my friend. There have been many attacks by proponents of the Bible on these forums. That's not to say that you have done so, but there certainly have been a lot of putdowns of Scripture posted.


It also doesn't "say" that the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ. Does that mean we are intellectually obligated to believe that it IS actually revelation? And how many other writings that the Bible doesn't comment on fall into the same category?
I don't know any Christian who will attack the Bible to say that it's not the word of God.

On your last point, you're missing the point. Scripture doesn't say that Scripture alone is what we must go by. That gives us the ability to find the other sources of God's Word.
 
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