DV spinoff

[Avniel]

I'm wondering the same thing. Good point.

No not so much I think most of my position comes from the fact I actually watched someone be destroyed systematically by two women......mentally, physically, emotionally and spiritually. It was like watching a person be murdered and they had all the power and reason to fight back but they just allowed themselves to die. That's really where most of my disgust comes from I think added with the fact that I was beat a number of times just adds to the cowardice. When posters state that me "blaming my father is what makes it hard for men that are abused" I personally do not care, the reality is regardless of what mentality a person has there are personal accountability. Some of my father's abuses were brought about by 1) Personal choice in who to marry(past history red flags) 2)Allowing someone to hit you and being passive while your body is threatened and 3) staying put and not doing anything. What wouldn't have bothered maybe if he took all of it and he kept his head high and didn't allow it to break him.


Blaming an abuse victim is seen as horrible but to me it's a reality. He messed up and I suffered for it, his mess up is what embarrassed me.....that is embarrassment lead to anger. The fact that I suffered I entirely blame that on my mother.

 

[ValleyGal]

Av, can I just clarify something? Did your mom direct your dad to hit you or was he taking out his own vengeance on you - meaning, if he was too powerless to stand up to her, he tried to regain his own power by exerting it over someone weaker?

 

[DZoolander]

I guess your father is still with your mother?

What I'm wondering is why? Because he thinks it's "wrong" to divorce? Like I said before earlier in this thread...I couldn't bring myself to whack a woman (unless certain conditions were met - like a weapon was involved or she was just HUGE and could inflict some real damage) - but I'd have no problem at all throwing her out.

 

[Avniel]

Av, can I just clarify something? Did your mom direct your dad to hit you or was he taking out his own vengeance on you - meaning, if he was too powerless to stand up to her, he tried to regain his own power by exerting it over someone weaker?

No it was more like he would sometimes be standing right near me and know I didn't say anything. However when I would say I didn't say anything he would call me a liar and I would be slapped or punched. For years I always questioned myself like maybe I am crazy and did say something maybe I didn't. When I became older around 17 I asked why he did that and knew I did nothing wrong, he said "some people must suffer for the good of others." Majority of the time I would say 99% of the time I was beat by my father nothing ever happened, the situation was a lie and there were times I know for a fact he knew but I still was beat. My mother gave out the orders and my father followed.

 

[seeingeyes]

No not so much I think most of my position comes from the fact I actually watched someone be destroyed systematically by two women......mentally, physically, emotionally and spiritually. It was like watching a person be murdered and they had all the power and reason to fight back but they just allowed themselves to die. That's really where most of my disgust comes from I think added with the fact that I was beat a number of times just adds to the cowardice. When posters state that me "blaming my father is what makes it hard for men that are abused" I personally do not care, the reality is regardless of what mentality a person has there are personal accountability. Some of my father's abuses were brought about by 1) Personal choice in who to marry(past history red flags) 2)Allowing someone to hit you and being passive while your body is threatened and 3) staying put and not doing anything. What wouldn't have bothered maybe if he took all of it and he kept his head high and didn't allow it to break him.


Blaming an abuse victim is seen as horrible but to me it's a reality. He messed up and I suffered for it, his mess up is what embarrassed me.....that is embarrassment lead to anger. The fact that I suffered I entirely blame that on my mother.

I agree with this (and I've certainly caught some flak for it in the past).

There is certainly room for compassion for someone who stays in an abusive situation (I mean, my God in heaven, just imagine what it would be like to have so little regard for yourself that you confuse punches with love!), and such folks need to be helped in any way possible.

But there is no room for respect. Not until they leave. I do not believe that that is "blaming the victim", but rather acknowledging that the victim in such a situation chooses to be a victim in a way that, say, someone who gets mugged on the street does not.

 

[ValleyGal]

So both...she directed him to sometimes and sometimes he just did it on his own. I think your dad was just as much of a victim as you were, only his temperament was different than yours....

I am sure you've read about the cycles of violence and the result of long-term exposure. Eventually the person has no sense of personal empowerment, they feel victimized, helpless and like they have no sense of who they are aside from what the abuser says they are, no opinion, etc. There's nothing left of them...it's been beaten out of them by the abuser. Then there are those who simply don't take it and walk away from the relationship - like you and Ezoo. Then there is the whole spectrum in between, including your dad, who is likely the former I described - except when the kids lived at home, he still had a bit of sense of power still because he exerted it over you. That was likely what kept him going all those years with your mom.

That is not to excuse it. What he did was wrong. And what your mother does is wrong - we've talked about your mom before, and I'm really glad that you have your boundaries with her. Have you ever had a man-to-man talk with your dad about all the pain in your family? I mean a talk without your mom there? Have you ever expressed concern to him about his welfare in such a volatile environment? I wonder if that would soften his heart and eventually he could come to acknowledge the pain he has caused, and have some true sorrow for it. He was/is a very broken man.

 

[seeingeyes]

"some people must suffer for the good of others."

This is the most chilling part to me.

Your mother is a nutbag (no offense), and if you asked her at any given time whether she is doing the right thing, she would no doubt answer with a resounding "hell, yes" followed by a list of justifications.

But your father seems to have known this. He was willing to ignore justice in order to appease an angry nutbag, with full knowledge that he was doing so.

 

[mkgal1]

It seems like a darned if you do/darned if you don't situation for your father. If he'd left.....he'd be considered another "dead beat dad" .....but staying resulted in this.

 

[DZoolander]

Well that's the perverse part to me. Above and beyond everyone - including my wife and even myself - my loyalty and duty is to my kids. No one is even a close second. So I cannot even start to fathom doing some calculation on who "ought to suffer" and answering"my child".

...and God help anyone who would put them into such a position.

 

[mkgal1]

Exactly. That makes me think of what you've described (EZoo) of your earlier church experience and how children were thought of as--and even parroted (I can't recall the exact expression)...but something like, "wicked sinners". That's part of the reason why I despise that belief system (besides just not believing any truth behind it).

 

[Avniel]

This is the most chilling part to me.

Your mother is a nutbag (no offense), and if you asked her at any given time whether she is doing the right thing, she would no doubt answer with a resounding "hell, yes" followed by a list of justifications.

But your father seems to have known this. He was willing to ignore justice in order to appease an angry nutbag, with full knowledge that he was doing so.

I actually got it tattoed on my skin so I don't forget to never be the one that suffers for the many.

No she doesn't think what she did is wrong she remembers things totally different. As I got older and my sister we began challenging things and bringing up the past which my mother totally forgot. My mother has stated her and my father never hit me and they only showed me love.

My sister blames my father because he has his doctorate in the medical field, he knew something was wrong. You know I love my grandfather he was a very hard yet simple man. As long as he could get up and earn his money grandpa was fine, I think this translated into my father being able to not deal with my mother's issues because he could always make his money.

 

[Avniel]

So both...she directed him to sometimes and sometimes he just did it on his own. I think your dad was just as much of a victim as you were, only his temperament was different than yours....

I am sure you've read about the cycles of violence and the result of long-term exposure. Eventually the person has no sense of personal empowerment, they feel victimized, helpless and like they have no sense of who they are aside from what the abuser says they are, no opinion, etc. There's nothing left of them...it's been beaten out of them by the abuser. Then there are those who simply don't take it and walk away from the relationship - like you and Ezoo. Then there is the whole spectrum in between, including your dad, who is likely the former I described - except when the kids lived at home, he still had a bit of sense of power still because he exerted it over you. That was likely what kept him going all those years with your mom.

That is not to excuse it. What he did was wrong. And what your mother does is wrong - we've talked about your mom before, and I'm really glad that you have your boundaries with her. Have you ever had a man-to-man talk with your dad about all the pain in your family? I mean a talk without your mom there? Have you ever expressed concern to him about his welfare in such a volatile environment? I wonder if that would soften his heart and eventually he could come to acknowledge the pain he has caused, and have some true sorrow for it. He was/is a very broken man.

I think you are mostly right except I think it was more of a "better you then me." Every time my father hit me and my mother was there he turned it to 10. When it was me by myself he wouldn't really do that much. He was more of a grounder then a beater he would ground me and to be honest all the times he grounded me were justified but the beatings were direct orders or I guess pressure by the presence. It was rarely a my father hitting me on his own but there wasn't any time where he really tried to get the truth out of the situation. He didn't need to know what happened and he often told me that.

It's funny because growing up I was always told "look at the little victim oooooh mommy and daddy are so mean to me." My feelings were mad a joke so I built myself in a way that I felt would never make me a victim.

I have tried to approach him privately but he will never admit nor deny he will just change the subject or end the conversation. They don't want to deal with the pain they caused I don't think they can take responsibility for it. My sister blames my father and won't talk to him the reason she blames him is because he knew better I just think he didn't care enough to make a change happen.

 

[Avniel]

It seems like a darned if you do/darned if you don't situation for your father. If he'd left.....he'd be considered another "dead beat dad" .....but staying resulted in this.

My cousin is kind of in the same position. If he leaves he will more then likely would leave his children with a woman that is unstable and doesn't have much to give to her children. He can't leave and break the cycle because he doesn't have the money for an attorney and he needs to protect his children. Men with crazy partners do not go for custody as often as they should because a lot of us feel we enter into the court to take a loss.

I don't just blame those that take part in the relationship but also the society that normalizes spousal abuse against men.

 

[Avniel]

I just want to point out certain things that have bothered me regarding this conversation.

1) I think that if you argue against a particular bias, created through interaction with a person that has gone through certain stimuli which you have gone through, and you communicate in the same exact manner you actually give his bias strength. How can you argue against a person restricting his communication with certain people that have been through certain things that you have been through but you communicate in the same way he is trying to avoid?

I think people like Valley and women that have been through what she has yet they still have a certain class, a certain respectful way of communicating their opinion.......disagree or agree.......that defeats the bias. Anything other then that will only increase the bias that has been created.

There is a healthy way to disagree and their is an unhealthy way to disagree. If I say that I don't like to be associated with abused women and an abused woman comes later and calls my opinions "stupid" and just basically insults me instead of carrying on a conversation on the topic...........which is basically what I expect it's the stereotype, that my bias was built off of............it validates that. Regardless of how many women out there are like Valley I tend to encounter more women that have been through abuse that take it out on other through their communication. I do understand hurt people hurt people but what you have gone through has nothing to do with me and I'd rather just avoid all the negativity and verbal abuse that I have come to expect from abused women.

Long story short don't complain about stereotypes when you fit it.


2) Not all men have this Macho issue.

I think the reality is, in America, when a man has a certain reaction instead of dealing with the catalyst we typically write it off as being overly macho. I think that is a way of devaluing that man's feelings. We disregard what he's gone through and we immediately decide that he is so macho macho man. We turn to society instead of looking towards the individual to full grasp his feelings. I think a good example is "if anybody hits me I will hit them back if they are in my personal space" translates to "I am big macho man and I will beat anybody up" or "it's not about winning the fight it's about fighting" translates to "I am a big man and I'm not scared of anybody." Nobody took into consideration my family comes from a violent part of the world, majority of my family are in violent fields in Jamaica(politics or drugs) not to mention the fact that I used to get hit a lot as a child. All of that combined should automatically exclude the "machoism" factor particularly when it's common knowledge on this thread.

Instead of adding this and taking from my personal stimuli it was written off as macho because it had to be. It went against the privilege of being a woman in this country. If a man said "muslim countries do oppress women however their women do live a cleaner lifestyle." That comment automatically labels the man as a sexist even if there was nothing sexist about that comment, we exclude his feelings, belief, upbringing and we deal with is this statement acceptable to society. If it is not we put him into a label and describe him in a negative way without even attempting to understand. The label placed on him is based behind a sentence and nothing more. More then a few times men are labeled based on to little information to classify anything.

3) Men know their own emotions

Typically I believe that men are not accepted as being angry in this society. If a man is angry he is seen as someone without control of himself. We try to dilute men's anger and do not validate it we brush it off and label it. I think we don't live in a society where men think they shouldn't be emotional I think we live in a society that teaches men there is no need for their emotions. Not everyone responds to the same stimuli the same way and if one's emotional response doesn't fit the cultural mold of what's acceptable there is a problem. Sometimes the reaction is natural, what is the natural emotional response for someone that get's hit by another? I think a natural response is anger however because I am a man I do not understand my feelings so I don't know enough about me to understand why I feel like that. It's offensive and it's an insult to my intelligence.

I think we need to stop filling men's heads with our own ideas and before we make a judgement we have to first understand where that person is coming through. The conversation was at a stand still until someone accepted that I know enough about myself to tell them how I feel, then that person's opinion was formed.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Yes, I am loud and forceful and sometimes even witchy when I'm discussing domestic violence. I am unapologetic about it, especially when someone is sitting in front of a computer screen telling me I was part of the problem.

You can call me whatever name you want, or infer anything that you want about me because of it. I really don't care.

But whenever I hear you say that domestic violence victims bear some responsibility, you can bet I will there right on your tails disagreeing with you.

 

[mkgal1]

Long story short don't complain about stereotypes when you fit it.

There are times (especially when a person hasn't healed from the hurts of their past) that a person's biases cause them to see things that aren't reality. IOW.....there's a hyper-sensitivity. People shouldn't have to coddle or walk on eggshells just to communicate.

"Respect" =/= coddle

 

[mkgal1]

2) Not all men have this Macho issue.

I think the reality is, in America, when a man has a certain reaction instead of dealing with the catalyst we typically write it off as being overly macho. I think that is a way of devaluing that man's feelings. We disregard what he's gone through and we immediately decide that he is so macho macho man.

Umm.....when a person makes the claim that the best way to deal with *domestic* violence (you know......the people that are *supposed* to love each other the most--have each other's back and all that) is with more violence---that's a "macho" attitude. I don't know what else you'd call it (other than "messed up" and twisted---to be blunt.) I'm not going to pretend that's healthy or in any way "loving".

Saying that's a macho attitude has nothing to do with devaluing that man's feelings. I can understand the "feeling" of wanting someone to "make it stop"---in any way, but that's not what was posted. It was posted as a belief system.

 

[Avniel]

Yes, I am loud and forceful and sometimes even witchy when I'm discussing domestic violence. I am unapologetic about it, especially when someone is sitting in front of a computer screen telling me I was part of the problem.

You can call me whatever name you want, or infer anything that you want about me because of it. I really don't care.

But whenever I hear you say that domestic violence victims bear some responsibility, you can bet I will there right on your tails disagreeing with you.

See again abused woman missed the entire point, victimized herself and validated all the things she said and had no accountability.......my bias is validated again.

I didn't get loud, witchy and or forceful. What I got based off of your communication was verbally abusive, ignorant, immature and aggressive. Which is typically how I personally would describe women that have been abused. When I tell my friends do not enter into relationships with women that have been abused it is because of women like you and my mother. That instead of dealing with their emotions they project their pain on others.

Loud and forceful isn't verbally abusive regardless of what the conversation is. If the only way you know how to deliver a message regarding domestic violence forceful and loud is by being verbally abusive, then me personally I don't want to associate with that.

I have had heated debates on all sorts of issues with several different types of people on several different types of issues. Typical those we consider as intellectuals do not communicate the way you do unless they have been abused.

There are so many other healthy ways to communicate that you disagree or that you believe a thought is immoral vs being verbally abusive. You insult people because my opinion invoked feelings within you regarding your own inadequacies in the choices you've made in the past. Your direct emotional response was abuse the person that hurt you verbally, which is a typical response from women that have been abused.

No I stand firm on my statement. We all have free will and we all make choices. The reason my children will not see domestic violence is because I decided that will not be a part of her up bringing by refusing to associate myself with women that have been abused. My bias towards abused women is a product of a collective of women that were abused and how they behave, you are included in that collective. As a christian if my bias is sin then my sister you are a stumbling block.


The truth of the matter is you decided to marry your ex. You brought a life into the world and the person you decided to marry threatened the life of your child. The only person that did not make a choice is the child. You made a bad choice in husbands, there are plenty of women that get married and have never been hit before. There are men that would give their lives before they see harm come to their spouse do you deny that? Did your husband force you to marry him? Was this an arranged marriage and you had no choice? Did he lock you in the basement?

As some that is an advocate for children, that spends majority of my time working with young black boys and teens that typical go through the same rejection I did..............I find it horrible that you can't see any responsibility. Your husband pulled a gun on your son, the person you decided to marry threatened your child and you are just as much a victim as your child? What I believe is that you have such a victimized mentality that you can not see past your own hurt and realize the danger your choices placed a child in.

Let's be clear when I hear a child is involved I don't care what type of abuse you had to endure. That becomes secondary to the abuse and the stimuli two adults decided to place a child in. He decided to pull the gun but way before he did that you decided to marry him.

PS
The way you communicate isn't about my opinions or my thoughts, it's about your pain and the damage you went through. You try to be loud and forceful because you believe that is where power is, that is where control is(abuse). The reality is you can think I was the dumbest idiot in the world I personally don't care. What you however did was prove my point regarding my bias.

Loud and forceful never beats tact and class. Valley was way more loud and forceful with her opinion let's not exclude affective. I responded to your posts based on boredom and entertainment nothing you said moved. I read what Valley said and examined myself, thought and responded. That doesn't mean we agree or disagree what it meant was Valley had enough class and love for me as an individual to not only hear me out but also give her opinion.

In a few words Valley used christian love to change my opinion regarding abused women more then you probably have in you to do. Now for that I will not say it's your fault but it's not mine either truthfully.

 

[Avniel]

There are times (especially when a person hasn't healed from the hurts of their past) that a person's biases cause them to see things that aren't reality. IOW.....there's a hyper-sensitivity. People shouldn't have to coddle or walk on eggshells just to communicate.

"Respect" =/= coddle

However I do believe we can expect to be treated the way we treat others. I do not believe not coddling people doesn't equate to calling someone's thoughts stupid. I was taught by my pastor during premarital counseling that calling someone's thoughts and or opinions stupid is verbally abusive. I think we excuse those that are verbally abusive if we think it's some truth to it.

Nothing you said really bothered me, but you didn't call my opinion stupid.

let me know if it's not verbally abusive to call people's opinions stupid I am game. IF calling people's thoughts stupid isn't verbally abusive respond asap because I've got list of calls to make.

 

[Avniel]

Umm.....when a person makes the claim that the best way to deal with *domestic* violence (you know......the people that are *supposed* to love each other the most--have each other's back and all that) is with more violence---that's a "macho" attitude. I don't know what else you'd call it (other than "messed up" and twisted---to be blunt.) I'm not going to pretend that's healthy or in any way "loving". It has nothing to do with devaluing that man's feelings. I can understand the "feeling" of wanting someone to "make it stop"---in any way, but that's not what was posted. It was posted as a belief system.

So my question is my aunt that had her toe caught off is she considered Macho? Or my cousin that shot a police officer because he killed her boyfriend is she considered macho? I know to many women that will meet violence with violence that don't back down from threats to really see how that is macho.

Is it macho because I am a man, if I was a woman would it be considered macho or just my personality?