DV spinoff

[mkgal1]

Part of the problem is people don't take the time to understand the man's prospective

Others understanding a man's perspective doesn't do a thing to help if the man himself doesn't understand his own perspective (and reactions).

 

[mkgal1]

I think the reality is if a man says he's angry or says if anybody hits me I will hit them back it's automatically assumed he's taking the macho approach.

What was giving that impression was the statement you kept repeating about men being "cowards" if they *don't* hit back. It's fine if you want to have that as a personal standard (and you & your family will have to be the one's to deal with those consequences).....but to put that on *other* men is what seems like the macho attitude.

It's like what I said earlier.....instead of encouraging and supporting other men.....you are also joining in and putting them down. Being that you've experienced that first-hand.....I'd expect that you'd have the understanding about how that affects a person (and try to avoid doing it).

People don't want men that understand their emotions because unless I missed something we do. People want men that are weak and not weak because they show emotions. People don't want men that get slapped and become angry they want men that get slapped and become sad. They don't want men that are willing to fight and standup for what they believe in they want men that are passive in a bad way. They want men to be the doormats of society...........

Personally.....I don't want *anyone* getting "slapped".....nor do I want *anyone* to be another person's door mat.

 

[Avniel]

Others understanding a man's perspective doesn't do a thing to help if the man himself doesn't understand his own perspective (and reactions).

Why wouldn't a man understand his perspective I believe I described my perspective from every aspect emotional, mental, historical, community and mostly feelings.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

What was giving that impression was the statement you kept repeating about men being "cowards" if they *don't* hit back. It's fine if you want to have that as a personal standard (and you & your family will have to be the one's to deal with those consequences).....but to put that on *other* men is what seems like the macho attitude.

It's like what I said earlier.....instead of encouraging and supporting other men.....you are also joining in and putting them down. Being that you've experienced that first-hand.....I'd expect that you'd have the understanding about how that affects a person (and try to avoid doing it).

Personally.....I don't want *anyone* getting "slapped".....nor do I want *anyone* to be another person's door mat.

Quoting for absolute truth. Thank you, mk. You hit the nail on the head.

 

[ValleyGal]

Av, I think I get what you are saying. You are saying your mom abused and emasculated your dad. You are angry with him for letting her do that to him. But you are likely mad at her that she did that to him. So it seems to me that you are sharing the responsibility between your parents - for both of them contributing to your father's emasculation. You are saying the both contributed to the dynamic and both should take responsibility for their role in what happened. If she didn't beat him, he would not be emasculated; BUT he ALSO would not be emasculated if he either left the marriage or stayed and stood up for himself.

So what you are trying to say, I think, is that women need to own up to how they contribute to their own abuse, just as men need to own up to how they contribute to their own abuse, and your preference of how they take responsibility is to fight it out rather than bow out of the marriage peacefully. Is that right?

 

[Avniel]

Av, I think I get what you are saying. You are saying your mom abused and emasculated your dad. You are angry with him for letting her do that to him. But you are likely mad at her that she did that to him. So it seems to me that you are sharing the responsibility between your parents - for both of them contributing to your father's emasculation. You are saying the both contributed to the dynamic and both should take responsibility for their role in what happened. If she didn't beat him, he would not be emasculated; BUT he ALSO would not be emasculated if he either left the marriage or stayed and stood up for himself.

So what you are trying to say, I think, is that women need to own up to how they contribute to their own abuse, just as men need to own up to how they contribute to their own abuse, and your preference of how they take responsibility is to fight it out rather than bow out of the marriage peacefully. Is that right?

Exactly I think both parties played a role in the dysfunction. However the only person that had no part but was still affected was the children. SO when I hear people say "I made the choice but I had nothing to do with what happened and I left when I could" I think it down plays the emotions of the children that really didn't have a choice when they could leave. We as adults have the power to make choices children do not it's our job to protect them from what I saw, or what other's have been through.

I don't know if it's a difference when it's a man being beat vs a woman in an abusive relationship however as a child I would say he played a role. He should have stood up for him self and he should have left. I would use the word dehumanized him I mean this guy ate dinner at a restaurant with his head down when he was with my mother. That's something that pimps do to prostitutes my father allowed that he let that happen. I don't know if son's that have mother's feel as disgusted or if daughter that have mother's feel that disgusted when they see that type of behavior.

I believe the only real victim in the situation was my siblings and I. Everybody else in that situation including my mother's mom needs to take responsibility for what happened. I don't care if he was abused or not he should have been braver.

Of course I would say fight that's what I came from fighters. Weather it's the first black family in a neighborhood or getting your toe cut off politically I have fighters in my blood.


If he didn't have the power to fight for himself he should have fought for his children.

 

[ValleyGal]

Not that this is much consolation for you, but where I live, if there was a report made that your mom was beating your dad - especially witnessed by the children - there would be a child protection investigation. What you have is called vicarious trauma, and it is a child protection issue. Your father would have been responsible for protecting you and if he did not take those steps, you and your siblings may have been removed from the home.

What kind of law do you plan to practice? You could use your painful past to motivate some positive change in families by being legal representation for CP. As long as your own agenda is not part of it, you could do a lot of good for children - and parents - whose situations are similar to what yours was. Use your pain for other people's good... It's a good motivation, would provide insight into the cycle of abuse that made it so hard for your dad to fight back, etc.

 

[Avniel]

Not that this is much consolation for you, but where I live, if there was a report made that your mom was beating your dad - especially witnessed by the children - there would be a child protection investigation. What you have is called vicarious trauma, and it is a child protection issue. Your father would have been responsible for protecting you and if he did not take those steps, you and your siblings may have been removed from the home.

What kind of law do you plan to practice? You could use your painful past to motivate some positive change in families by being legal representation for CP. As long as your own agenda is not part of it, you could do a lot of good for children - and parents - whose situations are similar to what yours was. Use your pain for other people's good... It's a good motivation, would provide insight into the cycle of abuse that made it so hard for your dad to fight back, etc.

Well my dream is political or international I want to practice a type of law that could allow me to gain some political position to make certain changes. Mostly I would like to help the black community on a larger scale. I don't think I could practice that type of law on those type of situations I am very light hearted and I wouldn't get enough sleep. What I want to do is build a organizations that help young boys deal with damaged mother's particularly in the black inner cities. I don't want to work to closely with it but it would be a nonprofit on the side. I really am interested in developmental/international realestate law, I want to be a middle man between 3rd world countries and developers that way these country can keep their cultural and ethnic identities and way of life. Industrializing countries with a custom that fits them and who they are.

I really don't want to understand it, I don't have a need to. Maybe when I was younger but as I have gotten older I learned just to leave people to their own destruction. I don't care why he did what he did the end result is it happened.

 

[LinkH]

I think it's naive to say that violence is never the answer.

I intend for my daughter (when she's old enough) to take Krav Maga (the Israeli martial art which is pretty akin to straight/dirty street fighting. It's constructed to win fights - however necessary). I want her to take it because I can envision situations where she might be in harms way - where violence would definitely be the answer.

My brother was telling me about an Israeli martial arts demonstration where the person who presented talked about how Jacob was able to wrestle the angel, and some extraBiblical book, the book of Jasher, said that when Simeon, I think it was, was imprisoned in Egypt, Joseph had wrestled him to capture him, and that Simeon recognized the technique as his dad's wrestling technique.

Jacob may have been a good wrestler to wrestle the being who knocked his leg out of joint. But I doubt he did any groin kicks. That's just my opinion.

I don't there is a consistent tradition of one martial art going back to ancient times in Israel. But those Israeli soldiers are probably extremely tough and I'd imagine they have experience a lot of other armies don't.

There is another Israeli martial art (I think it's a different one) that uses stances based on the Hebrew alphabet. I imagine Jewish men with prayer shawls, black hats, and those long side burns spelling out verses from the Torah to attack their enemies.

 

[Angeldove97]

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[tall73]

Av, I think I get what you are saying. You are saying your mom abused and emasculated your dad. You are angry with him for letting her do that to him. But you are likely mad at her that she did that to him. So it seems to me that you are sharing the responsibility between your parents - for both of them contributing to your father's emasculation. You are saying the both contributed to the dynamic and both should take responsibility for their role in what happened. If she didn't beat him, he would not be emasculated; BUT he ALSO would not be emasculated if he either left the marriage or stayed and stood up for himself.

So what you are trying to say, I think, is that women need to own up to how they contribute to their own abuse, just as men need to own up to how they contribute to their own abuse, and your preference of how they take responsibility is to fight it out rather than bow out of the marriage peacefully. Is that right?

Thank you for working with Avniel where he is at. It seems to be bringing out more insights.

I am wondering, and it is hard to know, if Avniel would view it somewhat differently if his father took physical abuse from his mother, but did not give in to beating his children. How much of the anger comes from that part of the equation?

I had some family where the wife was continually verbally abusive to the husband. I don't think there was violence, but I don't know. She did threaten suicide as well at times.

However the husband was the most patient and loving man I have ever seen, and just took it--and he still loved her despite all of it. Nor did he give in to her on important family decisions just because she was angry. He just remained calm through it, then moved on. And I don't mean he overruled her all the time either. He just brushed it off and moved on as though it hadn't happened. I didn't view him negatively for that, but positively.

Now had he turned around and taken it out on everyone else, that would have been a different story. The issue is not just that Avniel's father wouldn't stand up for himself. Rather he would actively participate in beating his children to placate her. He had the strength to stop it, and didn't, but instead tried to deflect the abuse to his kids. I can well imagine being more angry with him than even her. Actively beating his own children as a way to shield himself is not a choice he should ever have made. And he does deserve blame for that.

The situation here is different than someone who is being abused by a spouse in two important ways.

1. Avniel was a child and had no way out except through his father, who wouldn't provide it.
2. His father not only refused to stand up for himself and his children, but used his children as a shield, and passed on the abuse to them.


Now Avniel, I can certainly understand why you would be resentful toward your father. Do you on some level feel you should forgive him, as Christ forgives?

 

[Avniel]

My brother was telling me about an Israeli martial arts demonstration where the person who presented talked about how Jacob was able to wrestle the angel, and some extraBiblical book, the book of Jasher, said that when Simeon, I think it was, was imprisoned in Egypt, Joseph had wrestled him to capture him, and that Simeon recognized the technique as his dad's wrestling technique.

Jacob may have been a good wrestler to wrestle the being who knocked his leg out of joint. But I doubt he did any groin kicks. That's just my opinion.

I don't there is a consistent tradition of one martial art going back to ancient times in Israel. But those Israeli soldiers are probably extremely tough and I'd imagine they have experience a lot of other armies don't.

There is another Israeli martial art (I think it's a different one) that uses stances based on the Hebrew alphabet. I imagine Jewish men with prayer shawls, black hats, and those long side burns spelling out verses from the Torah to attack their enemies.

That's dope I don't know any other way to describe that.......spelling out verses while defending yourself. Something really to look into I might sign up for some of those classes.

 

[mkgal1]

I would use the word dehumanized him I mean this guy ate dinner at a restaurant with his head down when he was with my mother. That's something that pimps do to prostitutes my father allowed that he let that happen.

I agree....I think "dehumanized" is a better word. Like you said, women have the same response to long-term abuse, so it makes sense to use the same word.

 

[mkgal1]

I am wondering, and it is hard to know, if Avniel would view it somewhat differently if his father took physical abuse from his mother, but did not give in to beating his children. How much of the anger comes from that part of the equation?

I'm wondering the same thing. Good point.

 

[mkgal1]

I really don't want to understand it, I don't have a need to. Maybe when I was younger but as I have gotten older I learned just to leave people to their own destruction. I don't care why he did what he did the end result is it happened.

You're right......it may not matter why your father did respond the way he did....but I *do* believe that you ought to look more into your way of responding to all of that (and the biases that have been created).

Just this morning my Bible study happened to be about our response to traumatic events. One thing mentioned was that if we don't deal with our own "stuff" that's resulted.....our enemy does know our weak spots (and I do believe that)....and he *will* exploit those weak spots.

A few other points from the lecture this morning were that "chaotic events don't place us suddenly out of control nearly as much as they remind us how little control we had all along" (2nd Thessalonians 2:3 is a reference for that).

Another point was that "when we feel tremendously out of control in one area, without God's help we will ordinarily transfer a tighter control-grip on another area" (2nd Chronicles 16:7-10 is an example of that). That's human nature, but not what (I believe) God wants . He wants us to have confidence in Him. To be blunt, Avniel......it seems that your attitude is a way to make sure you're never mistreated again (and that you believe you've got in "under control"). That's just the sort of scenario (I believe) that our enemy likes to exploit.

Instead.....I believe that God can take all things that are horrible and trade them for something good. Abuse can be traded in for insight and compassion for others. I don't believe it's God's will or desire that we continue to carry rage and bitterness (and bias towards other people). He wants us free from that.

I really believe this.......

Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, for he chose us in advance, and he makes *everything* work out according to His plan.~Ephesians 1:11

P.S.~ Sorry this sounds preachy.....I was encouraged by the timing of the lecture I'd heard (and the content). I wanted to share in the hopes that it is encouraging.

 

[Avniel]

Thank you for working with Avniel where he is at. It seems to be bringing out more insights.



I am wondering, and it is hard to know, if Avniel would view it somewhat differently if his father took physical abuse from his mother, but did not give in to beating his children. How much of the anger comes from that part of the equation?

I had some family where the wife was continually verbally abusive to the husband. I don't think there was violence, but I don't know. She did threaten suicide as well at times.

However the husband was the most patient and loving man I have ever seen, and just took it--and he still loved her despite all of it. Nor did he give in to her on important family decisions just because she was angry. He just remained calm through it, then moved on. And I don't mean he overruled her all the time either. He just brushed it off and moved on as though it hadn't happened. I didn't view him negatively for that, but positively.

Now had he turned around and taken it out on everyone else, that would have been a different story. The issue is not just that Avniel's father wouldn't stand up for himself. Rather he would actively participate in beating his children to placate her. He had the strength to stop it, and didn't, but instead tried to deflect the abuse to his kids. I can well imagine being more angry with him than even her. Actively beating his own children as a way to shield himself is not a choice he should ever have made. And he does deserve blame for that.

The situation here is different than someone who is being abused by a spouse in two important ways.

1. Avniel was a child and had no way out except through his father, who wouldn't provide it.
2. His father not only refused to stand up for himself and his children, but used his children as a shield, and passed on the abuse to them.


Now Avniel, I can certainly understand why you would be resentful toward your father. Do you on some level feel you should forgive him, as Christ forgives?

I think that there is a problem with men that are open and able to be truthful about their feelings. Out of everyone there was only one person that actually tried to understand me and get insight into my perspective. Instead of trying to understand why I would relate and appreciate Ray Rice's right to defend himself, people would rather disregard that aspect of abuse because it's easier. I would say women in America do not hold themselves or other women accountable for any of their choices. In a culture and a society where Ray Rice's own friends as men spoke out against what he did, the media spoke out against what he did............did a single woman say anything about his wife charging at him? Of course not if she was the one hurt that is victim blaming she got knocked out.

Therefore me holding all parties accountable makes certain women uncomfortable because there is really no accountability culturally for women. Me as a man coming in here and saying if someone hits you and you hit them back while they are still in your personal space isn't abuse. What that does is change how we as a society look at abuse, we change the gender aspect of it and we take the term victim from the person that really is the aggressor.

Anytime a person can tell another person that "if you give men permission to hit other's back you are placing people in danger" who is in danger? The man that is being hit is already in danger, the only person that isn't in danger is the attacker. This mentality that women can hit men and men should never hit back, is about keeping power. If society questioned women and men based on who hit who first and used that as a means to determine who is the victim, women that abuse men would have a dangerous mentality.

By stating that Ray Rice's wife was not a victim but an aggressor causes women to get uncomfortable because if it is true then a lot of "abused" women would have to reexamine their position as victims. Similar me stating that women and men that are being abused(actually abused and not the aggressors) need to take responsibility for entering into a relationship with an someone that would damage you. Wait that's blaming the victim? Perhaps it is but to me people that decide to enter into a situation and that situation turns sour they have to own up to at the very least getting into that situation. The only people I can not blame are the children who have no choice in the manner, they don't get to pick.........I again bring up the term accountability.

I think if he took the physical abuse and did not hit us I would have respected him a little more not much more. I think based on family history and who my family is I couldn't respect him not even as a man but as an adult. ALl the adults I grew up around in my family were very proactive in political movements, the streets, the drug trade, their profession and my family prided themselves in being stand up individuals. It's those people in my family that make me not able to appreciate and respect my father's position. Not because he's a man but because he is an embarrassment to me. I view him as weak a person that allows himself to be a doormat and the fact I share the same DNA bothers me. I come from a family of warriors no matter what aspect of life we all are warriors. I think that what Valley did was an example of what a warrior looks like.

My father had a similar personality I viewed it as weakness because he put up with. Being in his field he had to know something is not right mentally and love someone enough to demand that they get help. I think even if there is nothing physical going on that still is something that needs to take place. I think many times we mistake cycles of acceptance as love but in reality it's really just being an enabler and allowing cycles of oppression to continue. At the very least hurt people hurt people unless they understand that they hurt and get an actual understanding of what their hurt. I think love at the end of the day is being truthful even if it hurts that other person particularly when it is a health thing.

I have forgiven him however I do always have to recognize character. Certain character flaws to me are not respectable particularly due to what I have seen a man go through. I think what made the loss of respect was seeing a human being allow themselves to broken down. I don't pity many people and pity isn't a positive thing there is a loss of respect there for sure but I wouldn't say I am not forgiving.

I typically don't care it probably made me less sensitive and more likely to avoid certain people and forms of communication but other then that I have an issue I do not like people touching me. My wife can hug me and I don't mind my family touching me but other then that I just don't want to be touched. I knew this about myself and I married a woman that has never physically harmed another with intent to do harm. I can't be around women and people that have a hand issue because I am not going to back down. I grew tired of that as a child so as a personal defense I avoid certain people. It works for me and my life and I am comfortable with it. I made myself a promise I would never allow myself to pushed around and so far it has actually helped me.

My thing is I can be whatever anyone wants me to, my mother too.....you can talk about my entire family(except threats to my daughter and wife me I am fine) however do not put your hands on me. I don't believe that comes from a point of anger I think that comes from a point of principle I don't put my hands on anybody so please don't put your hands on me I have had bad stimuli in the past.

I think where my anger comes in is my view on single mothers and dead beat fathers. I get angry because of their flaws and faults and the things that they did and the way they were not able to protect their daughter I was the innocent one that suffered. I think my anger is more so directed to abused women that communicate like my mother, black single mothers and dead beat fathers. I think then the more I have studied the black community post diaspora I felt more angered at them. I feel like these 3 are the destruction of the black community......when I see Chicago all I see are angry abused and neglected women with daddy issues raising boys that hate themselves because their mother hates them. They kill each other because that is how much they value others that look like them. Black boys are typical taught to hate each other at home typically by single parent households. They are taught this by women that were broken by their father a long time before they ever thought about men. These same women have sons and the anger of their grandfather comes on their boys that really never have any type of love. That's why in a sense I can relate to the streets because I know that feeling of self hatred, of being angry, of being sad, crying every night asking God why and waking up and having to pretend everything was ok. The reason why so many young black men smoke weed is because weed has saved many of their lives. They self medicate to not even think about the hatred the world feels towards them and they feel towards themselves and their own mother has against them.

I think my anger comes at the groups and the system that creates them. Also a little bit at people that communicate like they have been abused it reminds me of my mother so I tend to stay away from them or get angry and lash back verbally.

 

[seeingeyes]

I think that there is a problem with men that are open and able to be truthful about their feelings. Out of everyone there was only one person that actually tried to understand me and get insight into my perspective. Instead of trying to understand why I would relate and appreciate Ray Rice's right to defend himself, people would rather disregard that aspect of abuse because it's easier. I would say women in America do not hold themselves or other women accountable for any of their choices. In a culture and a society where Ray Rice's own friends as men spoke out against what he did, the media spoke out against what he did............did a single woman say anything about his wife charging at him? Of course not if she was the one hurt that is victim blaming she got knocked out.

To be fair though, she was held accountable. She got knocked the hell out.

 

[Avniel]

To be fair though, she was held accountable. She got knocked the hell out.

Well let me correct that she was held accountable by Ray Rice, she was held accountable by herself as well she talked about the part both played. As a society what a lot of people see is a woman that got hit. I think the reality is there is a big difference in a woman that got hit and knocked vs a woman that runs up invades someone's personal space and swings on them misses and gets hit. Those are two different situations. In one situation I see a victim in the other I do not.

 

[seeingeyes]

Well let me correct that she was held accountable by Ray Rice, she was held accountable by herself as well she talked about the part both played. As a society what a lot of people see is a woman that got hit. I think the reality is there is a big difference in a woman that got hit and knocked vs a woman that runs up invades someone's personal space and swings on them misses and gets hit. Those are two different situations. In one situation I see a victim in the other I do not.

I didn't really follow that story, so I'll have to defer to you on that, but I don't know of anyone who thinks of a woman who charges at her man like a bull and gets knocked out for it a "victim". Did he use more than "stopping power"? Yes. And he should be held accountable for that. But is she some oh-so-innocent delicate flower who got crushed by a big bad meany? I haven't heard that. (Which isn't to say that people haven't said it.)

In my own opinion, the dynamic between those two is complete poison. Same goes for any couple that won't avoid violence.

 

[LadyOfMystery]

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