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Dungeons & Dragons

seebs

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VigilanteHamster said:
It's still sorcery, though... it's all in the intent. Whether or not it comes in spell levels or happens to be pretend is moot. It's still sorcery.

Hmm. The thing is, I'm not sure it's similar enough to real sorcery to matter. It's like debates over whether, say, trying to use quantum properties of matter would be "sorcery". I think it's pretty clear in intent that the thing forbidden is "powers provided by demons"; in practice, in D&D games, those are generally reserved for the villains.

Just as a side note, I DID play D&D but... well, it was NOT a Godly experience in the least. It probably didn't help matters having a non-Christian DM (okay, he claimed to be Christian but sure didn't have any fruit to show for it-- judge them by their fruits), but it goes to show that, given a flexible moral system, the natural tendency is NOT toward God's way of doing things.

I think it depends a lot on the DM, and a lot on the players. My characters in any game are almost always going to end up reflecting Christian values, unless I'm making a conscious effort to explore other kinds of stories; even then, the smart ones generally end up getting there.
 
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VigilanteHamster

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There is no such thing as 'white magic', though... that's how Wicca snares people. Wouldn't the same principle apply to D&D? (Never mind all those verses about imagination... as far as I could see, the Bible NEVER said anything good about imagination!)
 
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seebs

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VigilanteHamster said:
There is no such thing as 'white magic', though... that's how Wicca snares people. Wouldn't the same principle apply to D&D? (Never mind all those verses about imagination... as far as I could see, the Bible NEVER said anything good about imagination!)

Don't get too caught up in terminology.

I recently played a game in which my character, who is considered a wizard by some, used special powers to send messages to people in distant places, faster than the flight of birds. He has been known to make images manifest in remote locations by the special powers he has. On other occasions, he's been known to fly from one city to another, once again, at speeds which are frankly hard to imagine in concrete terms. Frequently he uses elaborate rituals to summon desired objects to his person; he performs the ritual, and the object is brought by "messengers" within a week.

In case it's not obvious, that character is me. I send email, I have a web page with some graphics on it, I fly on planes, and I order stuff online.

When we talk about "magic" in a Biblical context, we are really referring to the category of things we understand to be made to work in some way by demons, presumably as a "quick and easy" alternative to faith.

In a D&D game, we are assuming the availability of a "technology" which, although it is structured very differently from our own, has the same basic properties; it has predictable effects, it's widely available, and it has no inherent moral qualities. It is called "magic", but it's really just a kind of technology. You could use different words and it would be "psionics" or "nanotech", or whatever. No difference.

I think that understanding this is very important to understanding how gamers generally understand "magic" in games. They're not talking about the stuff that the Bible condemns.
 
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seebs

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Lady_Firehawk said:
I thought it was something like drug use... *shrug* I'd better read up on it more.

That may have been a component of it; there's at least one word which translates best as "poisoner".

What kinds of things do we see witches do? Not a whole lot "on-camera", but one supposedly engages in necromancy, summoning a dead person's spirit to answer questions. One of the Jewish members once pointed out the delightful irony of this; in general, that's not even possible, so God almost has to have specifically allowed it to proceed, if it actually happened at all, as part of an object lesson for some of His people.

Casual review of what people mean when they talk about "witchcraft", especially in Biblical-era works, seems to suggest it's "pacts with dark powers". There's really nothing from that period even similar to D&D magic, or indeed, to most of the stuff that passes for "magic" these days. While it's quite possible that such things are forbidden, I can't find a direct reference to them; no one had heard of such a thing.

It's an interesting topic, and one where I think it's crucial not to just fall back on English wording, or indeed, on casual reference to translator's notes; we'd really need to develop a better understanding of the Hebrew interpretation of the time.

Consider, for instance, the study of Kabbalah. Whether correctly or not, it was clearly distinguished from "sorcery" by a fair number of Jewish scholars.
 
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jameseb

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Dr Kimble said:
Hey, I play D&D too!! :)

Version 3.5..it is so fun, our group tries to hold a session once a month and we have a blast every time we play..D&D promotes a good time a great friendships..I really don't know why some people insist that it is a "devil game"


LOL, wow, I didn't realize you were a player too!! That is so :cool: :) Yes, my mates and I have a really, really great time when we get together to play... of course, we probably do more above the table talking than we do playing the game, but its great. :)
 
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jameseb

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EPIC said:
I play 3.5 and Arcana Unearthed, seperatly. I couldn't tell you which is more of a blast.

Have you found that most player's are not Christian? Just about everyone around my gaming table plays for a different team. I really wish there were a way we could find Christian RP'rs in a given area, not that I mind hangin' with the Unconquered. I'm just tired of having everyone at my table lambast the idea of a Bible study/RPG.

Hmm... I haven't really noticed, but then I've been playing D&D with the same group of guys for over 15 years. We're all Christians...well, one of us is Agnostic.

One thing is for certian, nursing homes of the future will need to stock up on dice.

Epic

LOL, you're telling me! :)
 
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jameseb

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Lady_Firehawk said:
I like to use D&D as an arena to explore themes I otherwise couldn't... y'know, heroism and all that. (Nothing yucky, mind you! o_O )


Yep, me too :)
 
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jameseb

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Okay, let's geek-out a lil' further.... what kind of characters are you running in your campaigns, and what campaign setting do you use, or do you make up your own? Going through any published modules at this time?

Right now I'm running the current characters:

Mehemit, human sorcerer 14th
Mader, dwarf fighter 5th
Savroix, human cleric (contemplative) 10th (6th)

Right now we're sticking to the Greyhawk campaign setting, though from time to time we've jumped to Forgotten Realms or just made up our own. Right now we're not going through any published modules. We recently concluded 'RttToEE' and let me just say..........it is nothing like the first one. I really didn't enjoy it too much, but it could just be my friend's DMing style. ;)
 
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seebs

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I really, really, liked the design of RttToEE. Haven't played it.

I actually proofread two of the 3E modules; Heart of Nightfang Spire and Bastion of Broken Souls. I liked the first a lot; I absolutely loved the second.

I'm mostly in White Wolf games right now, but I'm running some D&D. The D&D games are set in a world setting my wife and I are working on; I'm running games in it to flesh it out. I'm running the game, so I don't get to have characters.

I tend to do a broad variety of weird-concept characters. Probably my most well-liked (by other players, not just me) was a kid who got the "traditional" retirement plan from an organized crime family, somehow survived, and vowed revenge. He spent years and years planning, training, and so on, to get his revenge on his father, who tried to have him killed. He finally met the man... and told him to get to a temple and confess his errors. By the time he got back, he was so different that he finally realized that revenge was totally empty. Very, very, fun character to play. I've done adapted versions of him in everything from GURPS Discworld to D&D to Mage: The Ascension.
 
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Lady_Firehawk

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I have Heart of Nightfang Spire on my computer... (and nearly a gigabyte worth of other D&D manuals!) I'm not current;y in any campaigns, but my two characters were:

Cetrinh, Dwarf Cleric (of Pelor) 5th
Akiji, sk'kirrim Rogue 5/Fighter 2
Both female... and the sk'kirrim are a nifty race I made up. :)
 
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Bohemian

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Lady_Firehawk said:
I have Heart of Nightfang Spire on my computer... (and nearly a gigabyte worth of other D&D manuals!) I'm not current;y in any campaigns, but my two characters were:

Cetrinh, Dwarf Cleric (of Pelor) 5th
Akiji, sk'kirrim Rogue 5/Fighter 2
Both female... and the sk'kirrim are a nifty race I made up. :)
Ah! A gig of manuals! Where'd you get the scans? From SVgames?
 
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Kakadu

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After talking with Kelly, my taste buds have been brought back to the days of D&D not that im old or anything...
i have been a Christian for about 1 1/2 years, and i have pretty much avoided all gaming of that kind. D&D and Magic the Gathering were my big ones, before i was a Christian, i was one of those hardcore Athiests that wore all black, had my room painted black, taped my windows so they were black, and had nooses and skulls all over the place.
Me and my friends that all played D&D together were really into the violence, sex, and we can do whatever we want because we are so bad and tough type of game play.
So I have avoided it and thought a lot about, could D&D be something pure and give glory to God?
It is good to see some people feel the same way i do, though i don't think there are any around me now. I wouldn't want to play D&D in an athiestic atmosphere again though. so i guess i will wait.
 
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Kelly

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Like any hobby, it can be used as a tool for Christian teaching. It offers chance for fellowship and a way to celebrate our God given creativity. We MUST always be watchful, however, and watch the fruits of our actions. When you play do you bring forth Godlike feelings, or do you get greedy, jealous, envious, angry, etc.? Pray for clarity from God, not just blindly continue to do things that may not be good for us.

Some things that are trouble for one Christian might not be for another, it all has to do with our personal relationships with God.
 
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seebs

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Kakadu said:
After talking with Kelly, my taste buds have been brought back to the days of D&D not that im old or anything...
i have been a Christian for about 1 1/2 years, and i have pretty much avoided all gaming of that kind. D&D and Magic the Gathering were my big ones, before i was a Christian, i was one of those hardcore Athiests that wore all black, had my room painted black, taped my windows so they were black, and had nooses and skulls all over the place.

Just a side note; I know many goth Christians. I like all black, too, but I'm not a "hardcore atheist". :)

Me and my friends that all played D&D together were really into the violence, sex, and we can do whatever we want because we are so bad and tough type of game play.

Ugh.

No offense, but were you teenagers maybe? :p

So I have avoided it and thought a lot about, could D&D be something pure and give glory to God?

I believe it could.

It is good to see some people feel the same way i do, though i don't think there are any around me now. I wouldn't want to play D&D in an athiestic atmosphere again though. so i guess i will wait.

Understandable and wise.
 
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Lady_Firehawk

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Bohemian said:
Ah! A gig of manuals! Where'd you get the scans? From SVgames?

Actually, a friend had 'em burned onto a CD... :D: I have the 3.5 Core Rulebooks in hard copy, though. :)
 
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