Drop your theological errors off here...

[OrthodoxyUSA]

When Christ died on the cross, this curtain ripped from top to bottom. This indicated that there was no need for the ceremony of the priest before we talk to God. The division was gone.

Top to bottom...

Forgive me...

 

[JacksBratt]

I don't believe praying to the saints is idolatrous, even insofar as kneeling to images of them which is fairly common at least in the Roman church.

A lot of protestants make the mistake of conflating confidence and prayer toward a saint with worshiping them.

Even the angels refused to let anyone bow down or kneel in front of them. This action is seen as worship. Kneeling in front of a statue of anyone is not biblical. Praying to anyone other than God the father, Christ or the Holy spirit..........also not biblical.
If any other deceased human of any rank on this earth can hear the prayers we speak.... they can not do anything about it. Why bother..... Jesus is our Lord, prayers of any kind should be spoken to Him, His father or the comforter that He sent to be with us... the Holy Spirit.

 

[JacksBratt]

Top to bottom...

Forgive me...

??

 

[Phil 1:21]

Receiving prayers to God, not to themselves or to saints.

This is a good example of folks twisting the scripture in an attempt to justify their beliefs instead of letting their beliefs be guided by scripture. The verse talks of saints praying to God. It says nothing about them relaying prayers from people on earth to God in heaven. It's no different than people using the wedding at Cana as justification for praying to Mary.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Even the angels refused to let anyone bow down or kneel in front of them. This action is seen as worship. Kneeling in front of a statue of anyone is not biblical. Praying to anyone other than God the father, Christ or the Holy spirit..........also not biblical.
If any other deceased human of any rank on this earth can hear the prayers we speak.... they can not do anything about it. Why bother..... Jesus is our Lord, prayers of any kind should be spoken to Him, His father or the comforter that He sent to be with us... the Holy Spirit.

For clarity... when Orthodox say "pray" we mean ask. We do not worship anyone or anything except the Trinity. Use of icons is not mandated, but permitted.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

??

I was agreeing with you about that.

Forgive me...

 

[Rajni]

Drop your theological errors off here... keeping in mind that one man's "theological error" is another man's "absolute truth".

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Did Moses and Elijah stand before Christ in the Transfiguration event?

More evidence that saints are with Christ and not dead.

Forgive me...

 

[HighCherub]

Kneeling in front of a statue of anyone is not biblical.

According to nothing- nobody has anything compelling to support the notion. There are statues in the oldest Protestant churches even- your idea came much later as Protestantism began to develop it's own errors.

 

[amariselle]

Did Moses and Elijah stand before Christ in the Transfiguration event?

More evidence that saints are with Christ and not dead.

Forgive me...

Yes, a fulfillment of prophecy, that is that Christ is witnessed by the Law (Moses) and the Prophets (Elijah).

But nowhere is it ever said, by Jesus or anyone else, including Moses and Elijah, that we should pray to them.

 

[amariselle]

According to nothing- nobody has anything compelling to support the notion. There are statues in the oldest Protestant churches even- your idea came much later as Protestantism began to develop it's own errors.

You may want to go read what the Bible says about "graven images."

 

[Albion]

When a human dies in the flesh and passes into the afterlife as a spirit, we say that they have died. We all talk that way.

The well-rehearsed routine of pretending that nothing has happened and that death has not occurred--or worse, insinuating that people who use the language in the usual way are saying that there is no consciousness in the afterlife--is rather insulting to the reader, if truth be told. And it certainly does nothing to advance the discussion to avoid the issue that way.

 

[amariselle]

I don't disagree with that.

Let me clarify where I'm speaking from: I don't find praying to saints to be sinful or completely invalid, but I also don't find it to be necessary either- certainly not to the extent in which the catholic churches have made it.

The reality is that all the Saints are humans- we don't really know them anymore than they did us- I don't see what real impact praying personally to a saint could do for somebody when they can speak directly to the Lord- who can deal with us individually.

But by the same point, I could also see to a vastly limited extent the Saints being swooned by our prayers and working with the Spirit for our benefit.

The real question is how these saints can even hear all these prayers being said to them, and does it in fact dishonour God to pray to a mere human being rather than to Him (especially when Scripture forbids it). It is not just a harmless practice, but could be opening people up to deception.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

The real question is how these saints can even hear all these prayers being said to them, and does it in fact dishonour God to pray to a mere human being rather than to Him (especially when Scripture forbids it). It is not just a harmless practice, but could be opening people up to deception.

I find a pretrib rapture to be far more troubling.
Waiting for God to come and take us away from trouble?

Forgive me...

 

[amariselle]

I find a pretrib rapture to be far more troubling.
Waiting for God to come and take us away from trouble?

Forgive me...

Yes, well, I am post-trib myself. However, I find praying to anyone but God equally troubling.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Yes, well, I am post-trib myself. However, I find praying to anyone but God equally troubling.

Okay, well just so you know... catholics of all flavors disagree with you.

Forgive me...

 

[amariselle]

Okay, well just so you know... catholics of all flavors disagree with you.

Forgive me...

I am perfectly aware of that. I'm more concerned with what the Bible says than what people say.

 

[HighCherub]

You may want to go read what the Bible says about "graven images."

Let's examine:

Exodus 20:4-5
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me

I don't see anything saying it's wrong to pray to the Saints. What I see is altogether a command that a person not kneel to anyone or anything contrary to God's divine sovereignty.
And you will to, if you simply took a minute to objectively deduce it's meaning.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I am perfectly aware of that. I'm more concerned with what the Bible says than what people say.

Roger that... thanks for being nice!

Forgive me...

 

[amariselle]

Let's examine:

Exodus 20:4-5
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me

I don't see anything saying it's wrong to pray to the Saints. What I see is altogether a command that a person not kneel to anyone or anything contrary to God.
And you will to, if you simply take a few minutes to examine the context- Saints are followers of God, nothing like what the passage speaks of.

Right, so where does it say, in Scripture, that it is permissible to pray to anyone but God, and specifically to those believers who have left this earthly life?