Drop your theological errors off here...

[HighCherub]

Does the bible help you worship? Then by your standard it's an idol.
Icons are teaching tools... the poor mans bible.

End of my discussion on this topic.

Forgive me...

I don't believe praying to the saints is idolatrous, even insofar as kneeling to images of them which is fairly common at least in the Roman church.

A lot of protestants make the mistake of conflating confidence and prayer toward a saint with worshiping them.

 

[amariselle]

I don't believe praying to the saints is idolatrous, even insofar as kneeling to images of them which is fairly common at least in the Roman church.

A lot of protestants make the mistake of conflating confidence and prayer toward a saint with worshiping them.

If it's truly a "mistake" to say we shouldn't confidently pray "toward" a saint, why is such a practice not spoken of in Scripture (while contacting the dead is spoken of, and condemned)?

 

[HighCherub]

If it's truly a "mistake" to say we shouldn't confidently pray "toward" a saint, why is such a practice not spoken of in Scripture (while contacting the dead is spoken of, and condemned)?

The Bible speaks in light of necromancy and otherwise paganism.
The fact is, by your own belief, the dead are only physically dead. As such, they are very much alive in Heaven and therefore one is simply speaking to another person in praying to them.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Death is a thin veil that love can reach through...

Forgive me...

 

[amariselle]

The Bible speaks in light of necromancy and otherwise paganism.
The fact is, by your own belief, the dead are only physically dead. As such, they are very much alive in Heaven and therefore one is simply speaking to another person in praying to them.

We are forbidden in Scripture to speak to those no longer living on this earth. Attempting to contact them is necromancy. Mediums do the same, we are not to do likewise.

Furthermore, unless these "saints" are omniscient and/or omnipresent, (qualities which belong to God alone) they are not able to hear the prayers of the thousands who pray to them daily.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Rev 5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Rev 8:3
And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Rev 8:4
And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Forgive me...

 

[HighCherub]

We are forbidden in Scripture to speak to those no longer living on this earth. Attempting to contact them is necromancy. Mediums do the same, we are not to do likewise.

Are you familiar with how the Jewish temple worked?
The Holy of Holies were kept behind a curtain. In order to see it, you had to first be tied to a rope from the other side so that if you did anything wrong in sight of it they would drag you out.

You have to bear in mind that, with that, everyone was forbidden to speak to God period unless they were drawn to Him as a prophet or arbiter. If you couldn't convince them, you were put to death.

It most certainly speaks of paganism because otherwise it would just be a waste of breath.

 

[amariselle]

Rev 5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Rev 8:3
And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Rev 8:4
And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Forgive me...

None of those verses tell us to pray to the "saints", (those believers who have left this earthly life).

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

None of those verses tell us to pray to the "saints", (those believers who have left this earthly life).

It does show them receiving them.

Forgive me...

 

[amariselle]

Are you familiar with how the Jewish temple worked?
The Holy of Holies were kept behind a curtain. In order to see it, you had to first be tied to a rope from the other side so that if you did anything wrong in sight of it they would drag you out.

You have to bear in mind that, with that, everyone was forbidden to speak to God period unless they were drawn to Him as a prophet or arbiter. If you couldn't convince them, you were put to death.

It most certainly speaks of paganism because otherwise it would just be a waste of breath.

Are you saying that the "Holy of Holies" and requirements given and commanded by God in how to approach Him in the OT is comparable to paganism?

 

[amariselle]

It does show them receiving them.

Forgive me...

Receiving prayers to God, not to themselves or to saints.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Your argument was that they were dead. It has been shown that they are not.

Rev 6:9-10
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Forgive me...

 

[HighCherub]

Are you saying that the "Holy of Holies" and requirements given and commanded by God in how to approach Him in the OT is comparable to paganism?

~Noooooo~

What I'm saying is that if all that was required to approach God, what makes you think anyone was allowed to contact Him period otherwise?

There was no concept of praying to people in Heaven- they hardly even held to an afterlife because it had to be revealed to them that there was one.

Dealing with 'the dead' in anyway was necromancy in those times.

 

[amariselle]

~Noooooo~

What I'm saying is that if all that was required to approach God, what makes you think anyone was allowed to contact Him period otherwise?

There was no concept of praying to people in Heaven- they hardly even held to an afterlife because it had to be revealed to them that there was one.

Dealing with 'the dead' in anyway was necromancy in those times.

The point is this: we can now approach God directly through His Son, our Mediator and Great High Priest. The curtain to the "Holy of Holies" was torn in two, that barrier no longer exists.

So, why is it now okay to contact the dead? (When the Bible says Christ alone is our Mediator, the only Mediator we have).

 

[Mountainmike]

About 1000 years reign on earth being Metaphor for neverending? We don't believe in infallability at any level.

You agreed as well...

"Who's kingdom shall have no end."

Let me ask you... what is supposed to happen at the end of that thousand years? Does Christ's reign end?

Forgive me...

Of course you believe in infallibility, in proper context, and so does even the most fundamentalist of evangelicals, despite their denying it..
That is the power of a human agent to act without error in specific circumstances when God acts through them.

You do not have any scriptures or a canon without infallibility.
The question is only to whom it applies and when, not whether.

You are unusual amongst orthodox if you think scripture or the NT is fallible!

So we believe in looking at scripture to see in whome the power to bind and loose, resides, given jointly to apostolic councils, and separately to successors of Peter. It seems you don't

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Of course you believe in infallibility,

The Trinity is infallible. No others.

Forgive me...

 

[HighCherub]

The point is this: we can now approach God directly through His Son, our Mediator and Great High Priest. The curtain to the "Holy of Holies" was torn in two, that barrier no longer exists.

So, why is it now okay to contact the dead? (When the Bible says Christ alone is our Mediator, the only Mediator we have).

I don't disagree with that.

Let me clarify where I'm speaking from: I don't find praying to saints to be sinful or completely invalid, but I also don't find it to be necessary either- certainly not to the extent in which the catholic churches have made it.

The reality is that all the Saints are humans- we don't really know them anymore than they did us- I don't see what real impact praying personally to a saint could do for somebody when they can speak directly to the Lord- who can deal with us individually.

But by the same point, I could also see to a vastly limited extent the Saints being swooned by our prayers and working with the Spirit for our benefit.

 

[Mountainmike]

The Trinity is infallible. No others.

Forgive me...

So you don't believe in the infallibilty of scripture or the new testament.
Both the product of God acting infallibily through human agents

You do not speak for orthodox then, nor should you present that belief as orthodox.

It is just your opiinion. And very wrong.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

So you don't believe in the infallibilty of scripture or the new testament.
You do not speak for orthodox then, nor should you present that belief as orthodox.

It is just your opiinion.

We do not believe in the infallibility of scripture or the new testament.

Where do you get the idea that we do? Can you quote a council or a canon?

I believe you're thinking of RC.

Forgive me...

 

[JacksBratt]

Are you familiar with how the Jewish temple worked?
The Holy of Holies were kept behind a curtain. In order to see it, you had to first be tied to a rope from the other side so that if you did anything wrong in sight of it they would drag you out.

You have to bear in mind that, with that, everyone was forbidden to speak to God period unless they were drawn to Him as a prophet or arbiter. If you couldn't convince them, you were put to death.

It most certainly speaks of paganism because otherwise it would just be a waste of breath.

When Christ died on the cross, this curtain ripped from top to bottom. This indicated that there was no need for the ceremony of the priest before we talk to God. The division was gone.