Drop your theological errors off here...

[Mountainmike]

Good to see you again.

Forgive me...

I have no idea who first coined the word inerrant, and it is largely irrelevant.

Irenaus summed it up in the first century of christianity!
"the Scriptures are indeed perfect, since they were spoken by the Word of God and His Spirit"

He clearly includes the gospels in this , saying:
"They Gospels, written by the apostles, are based on the words of our Lord". And “our Lord, therefore, being the truth, did not speak lies"

And since we know that all scripture was penned by man, the author was therefore under Gods control, which is what is meant by inerrant/infallible call it what you will, and only for the period of that action. eg writing the gospel.


Do orthodox agree with Irenaus or not?
And ..the question I asked, did any fathers disagree (I am unaware of )

I am genuinely interested in any nuances I have missed..
I have always felt the difference between us is as much different language used to describe the same things, as it is difference of opinion.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Is the Bible "silly" when it tells us repeatedly that it is faith in Christ alone that saves?

Here is your sentence. "He separates them, He commends His sheep for all they did."

Honestly, I've never seen anyone argue that Matthew 25 does not show forth works. It is what it is.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Are all these verses "silly" as well?

More on salvation by faith in Christ alone, not works:

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." - John 3:14-18

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." - John 3:36

"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."

"Then said they unto him, 'What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?'"

Jesus answered and said unto them, 'This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.'" - John 6:27-29

"For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." - John 6:38-40

There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in His Son. (Romans 6:23)

Christ is the end of the Law for all who believe. (Romans 10:4)

We are saved by grace, through faith, not of works. (Ephesians 2:8)

God is not willing that any should perish, but that all would come to repentance. - 2 Peter 3:9

Repentance from "dead works" and faith toward God. - (Hebrews 6:1)

By the works of the Law no flesh will be justified, but only by faith in Christ. (Galatians 2:16)

Also read Romans 4, Romans 5, Galatians 5, Hebrews 4, Hebrews 11

Our salvation is entirely by faith in Christ and what He has done. (The Gospel) 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

Do you recognize any of these as being preparatory to entrance into Holy Communion? It's a journey, not a moment.

Forgive me...

 

[Mountainmike]

Hey Mountainmike,

In your cooperate prayers do you pray for those who "rightly divine the word of thy truth"? Is that phrase or a paraphrase used anywhere?

Forgive me...

I am not aware of that. Is that part of standard prayers in divine liturgy?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I have no idea who first coined the word inerrant, and it is largely irrelevant.

Irenaus summed it up in the first century of christianity!
"the Scriptures are indeed perfect, since they were spoken by the Word of God and His Spirit"

He clearly includes the gospels in this , saying:
"They Gospels, written by the apostles, are based on the words of our Lord". And “our Lord, therefore, being the truth, did not speak lies"

And since we know that all scripture was penned by man, the author was therefore under Gods control, which is what is meant by inerrant/infallible call it what you will, and only for the period of that action. eg writing the gospel.


Do orthodox agree with Irenaus or not?
And ..the question I asked, did any fathers disagree (I am unaware of )

I am genuinely interested in any nuances I have missed..
I have always felt the difference between us is as much different language used to describe the same things, as it is difference of opinion.

But I think it is relevant. And yes, for Irenaus, who rightly "divines the word of thy truth" also knew the proper meaning of Matthew 16:18. Yet you and I would disagree greatly as preference to our training.

I tell you this. Rome is in no shape to lead. She is repentant at best, and in such a state cannot lead. The clergy is corrupt, your doctrine is suspect, your interpretation is scholastic and not Apostolic as having abandoned theosis. I find holiness has left.

I cannot agree to use a term unused by The Church in description of her own body of work. Leave it behind.

(Not pulling punches right? Hope I don't anger you.)

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I am not aware of that. Is that part of standard prayers in divine liturgy?

Yes sir... it's in the litanies.

Forgive me...

 

[amariselle]

Do you recognize any of these as being preparatory to entrance into Holy Communion? It's a journey, not a moment.

Forgive me...

Salvation is an event, not a process. When we believe on the Son alone for salvation (the will of the Father) we are saved, born again, passed from death to life and sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.


Our salvation is through Christ alone, not our own works or merits. God's standard is absolute perfection, and no one has achieved that but Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God.

It's Jesus or it's nothing, and it's Jesus plus nothing. What could we ever add of our own "filthy works of righteousness" to His perfect sacrifice for sin?

Nothing.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Salvation is an event, not a process.

Then you have not yet heard of theosis?

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Christ clearly gives the damned the reasons why they are going to everlasting punishment.

Forgive me...

 

[amariselle]

Christ clearly gives the damned the reasons why they are going to everlasting punishment.

Forgive me...

I guess we are earning our own salvation then. (Despite countless verses to the contrary).

I suppose it's good that humanitarian work can get us a place in Heaven.

 

[amariselle]

Then you have not yet heard of theosis?

Forgive me...

Are we "transformed" after we are saved, or apart from being saved (and born again)?

 

[amariselle]

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." - John 5:24

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." - John 5:24

Hearing, believing, confessing with our mouth, being baptized and partaking in communion is the way for sinners to return to everlasting life. We really cant miss the point that he "established a Church" based on a baptismal creed quoted by St. Peter and used by the Eunich in ACTS 9.

The Church has a purpose, to distribute grace through the sacraments given for the forgiveness of sins.

To stop short, just at believing, is akin to turning back.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Are we "transformed" after we are saved, or apart from being saved (and born again)?

We are transformed at the resurrection. Not before. We can change our direction. Certainly this is a "moment of joy" that we might like to express as being a salvitic moment.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I guess we are earning our own salvation then. (Despite countless verses to the contrary).

I suppose it's good that humanitarian work can get us a place in Heaven.

Working out our salvation in fear and trembling.

Forgive me...

 

[amariselle]

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. - Galatians 2:16-21

 

[amariselle]

Working out our salvation in fear and trembling.

Forgive me...

How do you "work out" something you don't have? That verse is not saying we earn our own salvation. The Bible is clear, we are saved by Christ alone.

 

[amariselle]

We are transformed at the resurrection. Not before. We can change our direction. Certainly this is a "moment of joy" that we might like to express as being a salvitic moment.

Forgive me...

We are "transformed" outwardly, at the resurrection. That is, we get our new, incorruptible bodies at that time.

We have already been transformed inwardly (the inner man) because we've been born again, saved, new creations on Christ.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

How do you "work out" something you don't have? That verse is not saying we earn our own salvation. The Bible is clear, we are saved by Christ alone.

Yes, clearly it states by Christ alone. The Holy Church teaches that blameless peoples from outside the Church are also saved. Knowledge is not needed for a blameless people. Yet, that is Christ saving them, even if they never heard that there was a Christ.

Does western theology teach this? No. The scholastic approach means that you must have some knowledge.

Forgive me...

 

[FenderTL5]

We have already been transformed inwardly (the inner man) because we've been born again, saved, new creations on Christ.

So the Apostle was being superfluous when he wrote Romans 12?