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Drop your theological errors off here...

1stcenturylady

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Grace, to us, usually means the "energies" of God at work around us and inside of us toward our salvation. Some of us have been able to "see" this energy with our own eyes (though I never have). Do you remember the Gospel story of Christ's Transfiguration on Mount Tabor, and the brilliant Light that the three disciples could not bear to look at? The disciples were seeing, with their physical and spiritual eyes, the "un-created" Light that is God's "grace".

I call God's grace, God's power. But that is a beautiful picture. We call that manifested light, God's glory. It is interesting that God's glory is being manifested during praise and worship more and more in some churches. I'd love to be in that atmosphere where He would inhabit the praises of His people.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Grace is unmerited favour. If we have to "stop sinning" to be saved, that means we must earn our salvation. Therefore, salvation is no longer a gift, but a reward.

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." - Romans 11:6

I would change denominations if I were you. If you are still willfully sinning which is of the flesh, you can't have the Holy Spirit, and if you don't have the Holy Spirit you don't belong to Christ. Romans 8:9

6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.
1 John 3:6-10
 
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Is Greek Orthodox the same as Eastern Orthodox? Maybe it was them that does not pray to Mary. Mary is not God so is not omnipresent, so how could she hear the prayers of all the EO's praying to her, let alone all the RCCs praying to her? I'm sure you've thought about that and I'd like to hear your answer. Now Jesus IS God and according to scripture is our one and only mediator between us and the Father. Why not just pray through Him? Mary didn't die for us, He did. Only by His blood can we come to the throne of grace.
By God's grace (power) anything is possible, and if by God's grace the mother of our Lord is alive and present with Him in His Heavenly Kingdom, then by that same Grace she can be aware of many things, and can pray for all of us. Since we have witnessed first hand God's answers to prayers that we have asked Mary to pray for us, we know that she is really with Him and that He hears her. You are right in saying that Jesus alone is our savior. Mary is among those saved by the death of Christ. She is like all of us in this way. If we ask her to "save" us by her prayers it is because of the importance that we place upon her prayers, which we know to have great power to win the favor of our Lord. In this we are also expressing our heartfelt humility before God; humility being a gift of God's grace as well.

Greek Orthodox is the same as Eastern Orthodox and they ask the mother of God to pray for them. I have to go sleep now. Good night.
 
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amariselle

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I would change denominations if I were you. If you are still willfully sinning which is of the flesh, you can't have the Holy Spirit, and if you don't have the Holy Spirit you don't belong to Christ. Romans 8:9

6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.
1 John 3:6-10

I'm glad to hear you don't sin any more, ever. That's quite an accomplishment.
 
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amariselle

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I would change denominations if I were you. If you are still willfully sinning which is of the flesh, you can't have the Holy Spirit, and if you don't have the Holy Spirit you don't belong to Christ. Romans 8:9

6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.
1 John 3:6-10

Also, you should read all of Romans 8, there is no condemnation for us who are in Christ Jesus.

1 John is talking about the inward man, the new creation we are in Christ. That inward man, born of God, is entirely without sin. Our flesh however, is still perishing and subject to sin. (We have not yet received our new incorruptible bodies).

Also, consider this verse:

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous..." - John 2:1
 
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amariselle

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More on salvation by faith in Christ alone, not works:

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
- John 3:14-18

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." - John 3:36

"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."

"Then said they unto him, 'What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?'"

Jesus answered and said unto them, 'This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.'" - John 6:27-29

"For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
- John 6:38-40

There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in His Son. (Romans 6:23)

Christ is the end of the Law for all who believe. (Romans 10:4)

We are saved by grace, through faith, not of works. (Ephesians 2:8)

God is not willing that any should perish, but that all would come to repentance. - 2 Peter 3:9

Repentance from "dead works" and faith toward God. - (Hebrews 6:1)

By the works of the Law no flesh will be justified, but only by faith in Christ. (Galatians 2:16)

Also read Romans 4, Romans 5, Galatians 5, Hebrews 4, Hebrews 11

Our salvation is entirely by faith in Christ and what He has done. (The Gospel) 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
 
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1stcenturylady

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Also, you should read all of Romans 8, there is no condemnation for us who are in Christ Jesus.

1 John is talking about the inward man, the new creation we are in Christ. That inward man, born of God, is entirely without sin. Our flesh however, is still perishing and subject to sin. (We have not yet received our new incorruptible bodies).

Also, consider this verse:

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous..." - John 2:1

Quote the whole verse. Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Don't you find it telling that your emphasis is on the wrong part of 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous..."

Where is the repentance? Nowhere. So what type of sin is it that doesn't require repentance but Jesus will still be our Advocate? 1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin."

You've chosen a denomination that justifies sin and are therefore trampling on the blood of Jesus. RUN!!!Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Don't be deceived.
 
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1stcenturylady

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More on salvation by faith in Christ alone, not works:

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
- John 3:14-18

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." - John 3:36

"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."

"Then said they unto him, 'What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?'"

Jesus answered and said unto them, 'This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.'" - John 6:27-29

"For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
- John 6:38-40

There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in His Son. (Romans 6:23)

Christ is the end of the Law for all who believe. (Romans 10:4)

We are saved by grace, through faith, not of works. (Ephesians 2:8)

God is not willing that any should perish, but that all would come to repentance. - 2 Peter 3:9

Repentance from "dead works" and faith toward God. - (Hebrews 6:1)

By the works of the Law no flesh will be justified, but only by faith in Christ. (Galatians 2:16)

Also read Romans 4, Romans 5, Galatians 5, Hebrews 4, Hebrews 11

Our salvation is entirely by faith in Christ and what He has done. (The Gospel) 1 Corinthians 15:1-4


James 2:19 "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!"
 
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Mountainmike

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I can only say you believe it in principle even if not using that expression.

The problem you are left if you deny inerrancy in any form, you can then no longer rely on any tradition (because it is human witness and action), you cannot rely on scripture (or Gods action through authors and councils that decide canons- or so you say - and I disagree), and you cannot rely on authority because both forms of authority are human forms, councils and papacy. All are God acting through people.

In short you would have no dogma at all!,
You would discount the lot as in error, you would therefor have no sacraments, or anything else.

But you hold all these true, and if you do hold your dogma as true (almost all the same as ours) , you must accept God acted through people in tradition, and/or scripture and/or councils .

The reality is many early fathers spoke of inerrancy without using the word.
Justin Martyr, Clement, Iraneus all made statements on scripture (although it could be argued that some of what they referred was OT) and later Augustine said it explicitly, with many others in between. So heralding the defined new testament.

Just as importantly - Nowhere (that I can find) amongst church fathers does a voice speak out AGAINST inerrancy of scripture. Tell me if there was. What the early fathers do not say is as revealing as what they do say.
So In a church that was hot on heresy, in which some spoke of the concept of inerrancy, even though not using the word, the same fathers said nothing against inerrancy of scripture such as gospels. You also accepted the outcome of such as Hippo on the canon, which is also accepting Augustines View!

For sure, orthodox rightly questions translations and interpretations - which is to say the scripture itself is Gods word, but only if it is copied, translated and interpreted correctly! And so do we...

My view of orthodox is the same on all matters.
They prefer to leave unsaid what they believe and we instead define.

They believe in purgation - but leave the how as a mystery, so oppose the definition of a process (or place) called purgatory (about which even RCC has little to say, other than acknowledging the state before purification allows entry to heaven, and that prayers for the dead are efficacious
.
Orthodox believe in real presence - but prefer not to comment on the process, again leaving the how or what as a mystery rather than as we do declaring transubstantiation. They hold in reverence just the same.

And in this case they believe in the preservation of the true faith by inerrancy of tradition, later scripture. But again they prefer to comment on how the faith has remained inerrant despite the reliance on Gods human agents in all of the means of transmission of dogma, be it tradition, scripture or auhtority/ councils, so Orthodox believe in Inerrancy in practice.

I can understand why those opposed to primacy, would want to play down a dogman of inerrancy! it weakens their case of doing their own thing.

You prefer leaving as mystery . But You accept the reality.

Indeed before you split off to do your own thing, which the more I read of it, was personal pride getting in the way of allowing subordination and primacy elsewhere, you believed much as we did.


We do not believe in the infallibility of scripture or the new testament.

Where do you get the idea that we do? Can you quote a council or a canon?

I believe you're thinking of RC.

Forgive me...
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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We are saved by grace, through faith, not of works.

Christ speaking:
Matthew 25:31-46

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Works.

Forgive me...
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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I can only say you believe it in principle even if not using that expression.

The problem you are left if you deny inerrancy in any form, you can then no longer rely on any tradition (because it is human witness and action), you cannot rely on scripture (or Gods action through authors and councils that decide canons- or so you say - and I disagree), and you cannot rely on authority because both forms of authority are human forms, councils and papacy. All are God acting through people.

In short you would have no dogma at all!,
You would discount the lot as in error, you would therefor have no sacraments, or anything else.

But you hold all these true, and if you do hold your dogma as true (almost all the same as ours) , you must accept God acted through people in tradition, and/or scripture and/or councils .

The reality is many early fathers spoke of inerrancy without using the word.
Justin Martyr, Clement, Iraneus all made statements on scripture (although it could be argued that some of what they referred was OT) and later Augustine said it explicitly, with many others in between. So heralding the defined new testament.

Just as importantly - Nowhere (that I can find) amongst church fathers does a voice speak out AGAINST inerrancy of scripture. Tell me if there was. What the early fathers do not say is as revealing as what they do say.
So In a church that was hot on heresy, in which some spoke of the concept of inerrancy, even though not using the word, the same fathers said nothing against inerrancy of scripture such as gospels. You also accepted the outcome of such as Hippo on the canon, which is also accepting Augustines View!

For sure, orthodox rightly questions translations and interpretations - which is to say the scripture itself is Gods word, but only if it is copied, translated and interpreted correctly! And so do we...

My view of orthodox is the same on all matters.
They prefer to leave unsaid what they believe and we instead define.

They believe in purgation - but leave the how as a mystery, so oppose the definition of a process (or place) called purgatory (about which even RCC has little to say, other than acknowledging the state before purification allows entry to heaven, and that prayers for the dead are efficacious
.
Orthodox believe in real presence - but prefer not to comment on the process, again leaving the how or what as a mystery rather than as we do declaring transubstantiation. They hold in reverence just the same.

And in this case they believe in the preservation of the true faith by inerrancy of tradition, later scripture. But again they prefer to comment on how the faith has remained inerrant despite the reliance on Gods human agents in all of the means of transmission of dogma, be it tradition, scripture or auhtority/ councils, so Orthodox believe in Inerrancy in practice.

I can understand why those opposed to primacy, would want to play down a dogman of inerrancy! it weakens their case of doing their own thing.

You prefer leaving as mystery . But You accept the reality.

Indeed before you split off to do your own thing, which the more I read of it, was personal pride getting in the way of allowing subordination and primacy elsewhere, you believed much as we did.

Indeed what I would expect from a well read RCC member.

Forgive me...
 
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amariselle

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Quote the whole verse. Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Don't you find it telling that your emphasis is on the wrong part of 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous..."

Where is the repentance? Nowhere. So what type of sin is it that doesn't require repentance but Jesus will still be our Advocate? 1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin."

You've chosen a denomination that justifies sin and are therefore trampling on the blood of Jesus. RUN!!!Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Don't be deceived.

Do you know what "trampling the Son of God underfoot" is? It is rejecting Christ's sacrifice through unbelief. (The very reason the Bible says the Jews were "cut off") Sining "willfully" is to turn from the truth of Christ once we've recieved knowledge of His sacrifice and the Gospel. This is not talking about making mistakes or messing up or failing in the flesh. (Even Paul wrote about his struggle with not doing the things he knew he should do, and doing what he knew he should not, and how he therefore did not understand himself). The flesh wars against the Spirit, that's the reality for all believers.)

There is no more sacrifice for sin for anyone who rejects Christ's sacrifice, because He is the only way to the Father. He alone is the Way, the Truth and the Life and no one comes to the Father but by Him.

There is no more condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, and He has promised never to leave us or forsake us. Rightly divide the word of truth. Don't just quote a few surrounding verses if you're going to accuse me of taking something out of context, quote the whole letter then, as it's meant to be read in it's entirely. (More importantly, take the entire counsel of God into account, through the other parts of His word).

I used to believe as you do, so I get it. I used to believe that my salvation actually had something to do with me. I used to believe that I was lost each and every time I sinned, that I had somehow been "unborn" again, cut off, rejected. This led me to start wondering how many times God was going to bother taking me back when I was surely going to sin again in the future. And then I started listening to/reading God's word, in context. Then I finally understood. My salvation is not about me and my behaving well enough to be saved, (Christ justifies the ungodly), my salvation is entirely in Christ's hands and He has not failed.

So, finally, I took my eyes off myself and looked to the cross and to Jesus Christ alone for my salvation. Finally I had peace.

I hope you can come to realize the same. (And just so you know, I do not justify sin) I am fully aware of how wretched I am without Christ. The point is that I also realize Jesus did not fail in what He came to accomplish, and He did not lie when He said He would be with us to the end of the age.

You also need to keep in mind that all the epistles are written to believers, already saved.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:31-39
 
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amariselle

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Christ speaking:
Matthew 25:31-46

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Works.

Forgive me...

Christ does not use the "good works" spoken of in these verses to separate the sheep from the goats, He already knows who are His.

After He separates them, He commends His sheep for all they did.

No one is earning their salvation, it is impossible.
 
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Mountainmike

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Indeed what I would expect from a well read RCC member.

Forgive me...

I was not pulling punches or intending to misrepresent Orthodoxy at all.

I was arguing the evident case that Orthodoxy holds the dogma of the faith inerrant ( eg real presence in sacramental eucharist, validly performed), whilst declining to say how that is so: when tradition , scripture and authority all are God acting through men, so in essence Orthodox deem the result of God acting through men inerrant, ( as tradition or scripture), or the dogma of the faith could not itself be inerrant.

I did ask a question in there too.

Whilst I find numerous early fathers making statements in essence of inerrancy in scripture, without using the word, I find none that opppose it, when early fathers were hot on what they deemed as heresy.

It is ironic for orthdox belief that Irenaus in "against heresies" - supports inerrancy!
He said “the Scriptures are indeed perfect, since they were spoken by the Word of God and His Spirit" - also using words like "divine" of scripture. How is that not innerancy?

Are you aware of any fathers opposed to it?
If so who and what did they say?
Why do orthodox oppose inerrancy ( of scripture, OR as scripture viewed as oral tradition became written) - other than on copying, translation, interpretation errors. Can orthodox rely on the gospels or not?
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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I was not pulling punches or intending to misrepresent Orthodoxy at all. I know... I thought it was very well written.

I was arguing in the evident case that Orthodoxy holds the dogma of the faith inerrant, whilst declining to say how that is so, when tradition , scripture and authority all are God acting through men, so in essence Orthodox deem the result of God acting through men inerrant.
I would agree that the dogma of the faith is inerrant.

I did ask a question in there too.

Whilst I find several statements of early fathers making statements in essence of inerrancy in scripture, without using the word, I find none that opppose it, when early fathers were hot on what they deemed as heresy. Are you aware of any? I would agree that the word is not used by any of them. Was it Vatican two that said so?

Good to see you again.

Forgive me...
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Christ does not use the "good works" spoken of in these verses to separate the sheep from the goats, He already knows who are His.

After He separates them, He commends His sheep for all they did.

No one is earning their salvation, it is impossible.


Now you're being silly right?

Forgive me...
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Hey Mountainmike,

In your cooperate prayers do you pray for those who "rightly divine the word of thy truth"? Is that phrase or a paraphrase used anywhere?

Forgive me...
 
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amariselle

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Now you're being silly right?

Forgive me...

Is the Bible "silly" when it tells us repeatedly that it is faith in Christ alone that saves?
 
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amariselle

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Now you're being silly right?

Forgive me...

Are all these verses "silly" as well?

More on salvation by faith in Christ alone, not works:

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
- John 3:14-18

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." - John 3:36

"Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."

"Then said they unto him, 'What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?'"

Jesus answered and said unto them, 'This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.'" - John 6:27-29

"For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
- John 6:38-40

There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in His Son. (Romans 6:23)

Christ is the end of the Law for all who believe. (Romans 10:4)

We are saved by grace, through faith, not of works. (Ephesians 2:8)

God is not willing that any should perish, but that all would come to repentance. - 2 Peter 3:9

Repentance from "dead works" and faith toward God. - (Hebrews 6:1)

By the works of the Law no flesh will be justified, but only by faith in Christ. (Galatians 2:16)

Also read Romans 4, Romans 5, Galatians 5, Hebrews 4, Hebrews 11

Our salvation is entirely by faith in Christ and what He has done. (The Gospel) 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
 
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