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Drinking question

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FallingWaters

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Alcohol-free wine 'just as healthy'

"
Removing the alcohol content of red wine does not reduce its health-giving properties, suggest experts.

In fact, the alcohol may actually shorten the benefits.
"


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Is Wine Healthy or Do Wine Drinkers Have a Healthier Lifestyle that Has Nothing To Do With the Wine?
[/FONT]By June Russell

"
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Alcohol is toxic to the liver, aggravates allergies, worsens fatigue, can negate a diet rich in fruits and vegetables and the presence of alcohol hastens the breakdown of antioxidants in the blood, speeding their elimination from the body. The medical literature advises the public to avoid alcohol for almost every health problem - and as a way to prevent health problems.

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The alcohol's presence in wine increases free radicals, which cause damage to blood vessels tissues - dampening any of the benefits that red wine's antioxidants may offer, says Dr. John Foltz, researcher at the University of Wisconsin. Purple grape juice can give the benefits without the intoxicating effects, as grape juice contains more resveratrol, a supposed cholesterol lowering substance, than most red wine. Grape juice improves the function of the cells in blood vessel linings more efficiently than wine.[/FONT]"
[emphasis mine]



And to think I almost listened to you people!
 
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AJB4

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After reading this article, I became convinced that drinking is not a sin.

The wine at the wedding that Jesus turned water into must have been alcoholic, because the point of having 'good wine' first is because by the end of the wedding or event, people would be more relaxed and not care about the taste so much, so they'd bring out the worse stuff. It can't have been grape juice, because unfermented grape juice tastes the same.

Also, back then in the blazing hot weather, how would they keep the wine unfermented, if indeed is was grape juice. A lot of people estimate about 40 days of unfermentation. So, they harvest their grapes, then after 40 days, they're fermented. What would they have done then? Grape season over. All that's left is fermented wine.

The thing about how you're drunk after one sip of an alcoholic drink comes from somewhere other than Jesus IMO.
 
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BigNorsk

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Even under Old Testament Law, people were told they could drink.
Deu 14:26 NET.
(26)
Then you may spend the money however you wish for cattle, sheep, wine, beer, or whatever you desire. You and your household may eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and enjoy it.
God did not disapprove of alcohol. Wine, and beer and even distilled drinks, which did not exist then, are blessings from God. Throughout the Bible, grapes and wine is repeatedly shown to be a blessing.

Marv
 
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BereanTodd

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Even under Old Testament Law, people were told they could drink.
Deu 14:26 NET.
(26) Then you may spend the money however you wish for cattle, sheep, wine, beer, or whatever you desire. You and your household may eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and enjoy it.
God did not disapprove of alcohol. Wine, and beer and even distilled drinks, which did not exist then, are blessings from God. Throughout the Bible, grapes and wine is repeatedly shown to be a blessing.

Marv

Oh, stop confusing the legalistic fundies with crazy things like facts and Scriptures now Norsk ...
 
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MarkEvan

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Each person is convicted by their own conscience that it is either right or wrong to drink alcohol, those who think that it is a sin to drink alcohol, then yes to you it would be because you would violate your conscience.
Those people who deem that it is ok, then to you (as the principle for eaing meat shown in Romans and 1 corinthians shows) it is not sin.
However should we who think that it is ok, cause someone who has a weak conscience, to violate that conscience, then we are guilty of sin, having destroyed that person.
And those who are of the opinion that it is sin, it is not your place to accuse others of sinning, when the scriptures are clear on this subject.


And to the OP, study the word and allow the Spirit to guide your conscience in this matter.

mark
 
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BigNorsk

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We do need however to realize that simply drinking, consuming the blessing from God, does not cause a weaker person to stumble.

If we wanted to think that way, we certainly would not use money for many fall into sin over money.

We would also all be celibate for we wouldn't want our weaker brother to fall into sin thinking that God wanted us to enjoy sex.

And so on.

In all those cases, there is a right way to use and enjoy them, and a wrong way. We should thank God for his blessings and provide an example of the proper way to use them to strengthen our weaker brothers.

Marv
 
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MarkEvan

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We do need however to realize that simply drinking, consuming the blessing from God, does not cause a weaker person to stumble.

If we wanted to think that way, we certainly would not use money for many fall into sin over money.

We would also all be celibate for we wouldn't want our weaker brother to fall into sin thinking that God wanted us to enjoy sex.

And so on.

In all those cases, there is a right way to use and enjoy them, and a wrong way. We should thank God for his blessings and provide an example of the proper way to use them to strengthen our weaker brothers.

Marv



Our drinking in front of someone who`s conscience convicts them over alcohol can lead them to sin and therefore we sin because we do not "love our neighbour as ourselves."

If we take what Paul says in romans 14 about eating meat and also what he says in 1 corinthians, this principle can be directly related to drinking, if you drank wine before someone who did not think that it was ok, for instance someone who was an alcoholic, and they seeing you a mature believer in the LORD drinking, and drinking themselves reguardless of the convictions of their conscience, then they sin, and Paul makes it clear that you sin...infact that your sin is worse because you have caused them to violate their conscience, and therefore according to Paul, "destroyed" that person.

Mark :)
 
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FallingWaters

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Our drinking in front of someone who`s conscience convicts them over alcohol can lead them to sin and therefore we sin because we do not "love our neighbour as ourselves."

If we take what Paul says in romans 14 about eating meat and also what he says in 1 Corinthians, this principle can be directly related to drinking, if you drank wine before someone who did not think that it was ok, for instance someone who was an alcoholic, and they seeing you a mature believer in the LORD drinking, and drinking themselves regardless of the convictions of their conscience, then they sin, and Paul makes it clear that you sin...in fact that your sin is worse because you have caused them to violate their conscience, and therefore according to Paul, "destroyed" that person.

Mark :)
Yes.
You have applied the principle rightly, in my view.

A Christian sister once asked me if it would bother me if she drank beer in front of me, while I was visiting her in her home.
I was a baby Christian out of a Catholic background.
I grew up having an alcoholic father, and believing that alcohol single-handedly ruined our happy home- and my life- forever.
I hated alcohol because of what it had done to our lives.

Since she asked me, I told her it would bother me, so she didn't drink in front of me.
I appreciated that.
I don't know what I would have thought if she had not have asked,
but knowing how I am,
it is likely that I would never have trusted her again.
 
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Tamara224

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So, maybe what we should do is take every opportunity to strengthen our weaker brothers and sisters so that someday we can sit down together and enjoy a glass of wine, beer or liquor without causing him/her to stumble.

The truth sets us free... free from the bondage of legalism. If we encourage and teach our weaker brothers and sisters concerning the truth about alcohol, then they will no longer stumble but be able to exercise freedom as well as the stronger brothers and sisters do.

Or, should we just leave them in their state of weakness?
 
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freespiritchurch

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Our drinking in front of someone who`s conscience convicts them over alcohol can lead them to sin and therefore we sin because we do not "love our neighbour as ourselves."

If we take what Paul says in romans 14 about eating meat and also what he says in 1 corinthians, this principle can be directly related to drinking, if you drank wine before someone who did not think that it was ok, for instance someone who was an alcoholic, and they seeing you a mature believer in the LORD drinking, and drinking themselves reguardless of the convictions of their conscience, then they sin, and Paul makes it clear that you sin...infact that your sin is worse because you have caused them to violate their conscience, and therefore according to Paul, "destroyed" that person.

Mark :)
There's a difference between an alcoholic and someone who believes that drinking is wrong. An alcoholic could be led into sin by drinking, so we're obliged to avoid drinking around one. A person who doesn't drink and isn't tempted to wouldn't be led to sin by watching someone drink, and so we don't have the same obligation to avoid drinking around them.
 
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MarkEvan

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There's a difference between an alcoholic and someone who believes that drinking is wrong. An alcoholic could be led into sin by drinking, so we're obliged to avoid drinking around one. A person who doesn't drink and isn't tempted to wouldn't be led to sin by watching someone drink, and so we don't have the same obligation to avoid drinking around them.


But this would make no sense in the principle of eating meat, those who thought it wrong did so not because they sufferewd from temptation, but because they thought they saw from scripture that it was wrong, and although Paul seeks to educate them in the issue, he also says that if it causes someone to stumble then he will never eat meat again.

James says "he then that knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, to him it is sin," in this context and from what they believe the scriptures teach, if those who consider drinking wine wrong, to them it would be!

Yes I agree that those who know it not to be sin, should teach those who think it isn`t, however we should never let our liberty cause someon eto stumble.

Mark :)
 
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BigNorsk

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Well then have you ever done business with a greedy person, ever used money in front of someone who was greedy or a gambling addict or had any sort of sinful problem with money?

Do you eat in front of a glutton, or maybe even have a church pot-luck dinner where the food is piled high and the glutton is told to go ahead and dish up?

Just wondering if you apply this to your life or only to alcohol?

Marv
 
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MarkEvan

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Well then have you ever done business with a greedy person, ever used money in front of someone who was greedy or a gambling addict or had any sort of sinful problem with money?

Do you eat in front of a glutton, or maybe even have a church pot-luck dinner where the food is piled high and the glutton is told to go ahead and dish up?

Just wondering if you apply this to your life or only to alcohol?

Marv


Let me ask a question, Is the principle given from scripture wrong?

Mark :)
 
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Zecryphon

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The bible is not very clear about if it is a sin or not to drink beer or wine. There are several verses to support both sides of the fence- some believe it's a sin to have fermented wine, other's believe it's ok so long as you arnt drunk.
I want to know for sure because i gave up drinking totally (not even nyquil) when i really started to live for god. i feel like this is a sign to myself that makes me different than before because i drank alot. but then after a few years i felt like i was doing it in vein since the lord loved me anyways and i was saved because he said so, not because i earned it.
I want to know specifically what the bible says about moderate drinking. not getting drunk, but one or two beers here or there.
Drinking is not a sin. How could it be? Jesus not only turned water into wine, but also drank wine Himself. If the statement that 'Jesus is without sin' is true, then His actions, all of His actions must not be considered sin, and that includes drinking. The sin is getting drunk.
 
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FallingWaters

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Drinking is not a sin. How could it be? Jesus not only turned water into wine, but also drank wine Himself. If the statement that 'Jesus is without sin' is true, then His actions, all of His actions must not be considered sin, and that includes drinking. The sin is getting drunk.
Yes, but apparently there is some controversy about just how much alcoholic content there really was.
 
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freespiritchurch

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But this would make no sense in the principle of eating meat, those who thought it wrong did so not because they sufferewd from temptation, but because they thought they saw from scripture that it was wrong, and although Paul seeks to educate them in the issue, he also says that if it causes someone to stumble then he will never eat meat again.

James says "he then that knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, to him it is sin," in this context and from what they believe the scriptures teach, if those who consider drinking wine wrong, to them it would be!

Yes I agree that those who know it not to be sin, should teach those who think it isn`t, however we should never let our liberty cause someon eto stumble.

Mark :)
As I read 1 Corinthians 8-10, the problem is that some people worshiped idols by eating meat sacrificed to them. Paul acknowledges that the Corinthians he addressed knew better, but he was concerned that some Christians would be led into real idolatry when they saw their brethren doing something that only had the appearance of idolatry.

If we follow your logic, we would all be bound to avoid any action that offended any Christian, even if their objections were nonsensical. There's no way to live according to that principle, which suggests to me that it isn't what Paul is trying to say.

Alan
 
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FallingWaters

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A very good article:

Drinking
by
Ronnie Hoover

Today we live in an alcohol saturated society where it is "in" to drink. We need to familiarize ourselves with the real Bible based, Christian perspective on drinking. Many parents, teachers, Campus Pastors, and even preachers shy away from discussing this subject with their students, hoping that the youth of today will be smart enough to make all the right choices where alcohol is concerned. Unfortunately, most alcoholics become interested in drinking at an early age, and I am certain that these men and women, their lives now controlled by alcohol, did not sit down with a panel of experts and discuss the pros and cons of social drinking. They saw, they tasted, they indulged. Therefore, there is no better time than the present to get an honest understanding of the subject - before it is too late.

What Does the Bible Say?

There seems to be a contradiction of thoughts in the Bible about drinking fermented (alcoholic) wine. Solomon, whose great wisdom gave us the books of Proverbs and Ecclesiastes, declared, Prov 20:1 "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." (KJV) How could he then say, " Eccl 9:7 "Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works." (KJV) Did the wisest man of all times forget what warnings he had just given?

God himself gave a direct command to the priests and their sons to abstain from wine and strong drink when entering the tabernacle. Then, after they had entered the promised land, he instructed that the "drink offering should be of wine." Lev. 24:13 Is it possible that our God, who is perfect in all his ways has changed his mind on this subject?

And what about Paul, the great apostle? Did he encourage Timothy to drink fermented wine? Did he entice Timothy, a young leader and officer of the church, to drink wine, when he had just instructed the bishops of the church not to be given to wine? Did Paul, a learned man of the holy scriptures, purposely ignore the warning of the King Solomon and the prophet Habakkuk?

A Deeper Look Into the Word

Many, I might add most, Bible commentaries imply that all wine referred to in the scriptures is indeed fermented, alcoholic wine. They suggest the Bible only speaks against "immoderate" drinking. "Moderation" is used only one time in the Bible and it is not speaking about drinking. These commentaries rely on basically two forms of study about issues like this: Tradition and what I'll call the splitting of ancient words, etymology.

Traditionally, Christians and Jews often drank vintage wines as they still do in Europe... traditionally, fermented wine was used in the Passover celebration and communion... Tradition is a wonderful thing, BUT, tradition does not make it correct, nor does it make it scriptural.

Now for some splitting of ancient words. There are 13 different words translated as "wine" - 9 in Hebrew and Chaldee, and 4 in Greek. The most common Greek word for wine is "oinos" which corresponds to the Hebrew word "yayin," and the Latin word Vinum. (That ought to tell you something.) These words all translate into our English word "wine." In the Septuagint (the Greek version of the Hebrew scriptures of Jesus' time) the Hebrew word for grape juice is translated 33 times as the Greek word "oinos" (wine). It is also used to denote other kinds of drinks such as lotus fruits and dates. (1)

Wine? or Wine? Is there a difference?

The problem is with this word "wine." Some believe that the word "wine," unless used figuratively or qualified by another word or phrase, ALWAYS means the fermented juice of the grape - alcohol. How can we know this to be true? The truth is, we don't know. The word "juice" doesn't appear in the New Testament at all, and only once in the Old Testament. All fruit of the vine - whether it be grape juice or alcoholic wine - is called wine. Sometimes the context makes it clear that the meaning is actually fermented wine. Other times it is clear that the meaning is definitely unfermented wine or juice. The problem occurs when the immediate context sheds no light as to whether the wine is to be considered fermented or unfermented.

Non-Alcoholic Wine

The Hebrew "yayin" (wine) includes all types both fermented and unfermented drinks. (2) Yayin when fermented makes one drunk as in Gen. 9:21-24. There are indeed passages of scripture using the word yayin, which according to the context are obviously referring to the non-alcoholic wines. Isa 16:10 "...the treaders shall tread out no wine in their presses ...." (KJV) Also, Jer 48:33 " ... and I have caused wine to fail from the winepresses: ..." (KJV) Alcoholic, fermented wine doesn't squirt out of the grape freshly placed into the press, only pure grape juice, unfermented and non-alcoholic "yayin." This is the "wine" Isaiah said there was a blessing in.

Was Jesus a Casual Drinker?

The Wedding at Cana:

What about the wedding at Cana? Jesus turned the water in the pots into wine for himself and all the guests, didn't he? Some modern versions of the Bible wrongly translate John 2:10 by stating or insinuating that normally, after the guest were too drunk to know the difference, the host of the wedding would serve the cheap wine. The translators made a mistake by assuming that the wine was fermented. How could they know? Had the wine not just been made? The Amplified Bible translates the passage this way, "When the people had drunk freely..." The Phillips Translation reads like this, "When men have had plenty to drink," thus leaving room for the reader to determine whether he thought the wine Jesus made was alcoholic or not. This leaves room for one to understand that the guests had merely drank so much that they were full - not intoxicated.

Can you really see our Lord Jesus, the Holy One of Israel contributing to revellers? Does not Rom 13:14 say, "... make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (KJV) If Jesus had provided wine for revellers, He would have been in opposition to this warning of scripture. 1 Cor 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. (KJV) Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (KJV) Revelling is what college students call, partying.

Jesus is called the King of Kings and Prov 31:4-5 says, "It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:"

Some theologians would say that if the wine were not fermented, it could not be called, "good wine." However, history speaks of a drink that was meant for the gods - nectar or ambrosia, the pure fruit of the vine and non-alcoholic! In Cana, the guests claimed that the best wine was saved for the last. It’s probable that Jesus turned the water in the pots into the best wine - ambrosia!

The Lord's Supper:

Did Jesus serve alcohol to his disciples at the Last Supper to establish a pattern for us to follow in our communion services?

Can you imagine what Solomon would have said if the wine Jesus served was alcoholic? Prov 20:1 Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler; whoever is led astray by them is not wise. (NIV) Prov 31:4-5 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: 5 Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. (KJV)

The prophet Habakkuk would have had to remind the son of God, "woe unto him that giveth his neighbor to drink." (this refers to giving with wrong motives.) What about God Himself? When He had said in Lev 10:8-9, "Then the LORD said to Aaron, You and your sons are not to drink wine or other fermented drink whenever you go into the Tent of Meeting, or you will die. This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come." (NIV) Also, Ezek 44:21 says, "No priest is to drink wine when he enters the inner court." (NIV) Surely in the light of these scriptures we couldn't continue to believe that Jesus would have established Holy Communion, an order of worship to take place in the sanctuary, with the use of alcohol. Jesus could have completely destroyed the authenticity of God's Word by setting the New Testament against the Old. Contrary to popular belief, the word wine is not used in any passage concerning the Lord's supper. When speaking of the drink used, Jesus uses only the word "cup." He then tells us, "I will not drink of this (fruit of the vine) cup until that day when I drink it with you in my Father's kingdom." Jesus was obviously referring to fruit juice from the grape vine, and not alcoholic fermented wine.

But Wine is Good for the Stomach

1 Tim 5:23 "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities." (KJV)

I am not sure of all the medical ramifications behind this passage. I don't see a scriptural problem with using medicines that contain alcohol content. This is a difficult passage, because I know that alcohol is a difficult substance for the digestive system to eliminate.
Regardless, the same thought remains, we do not know if this word is referring to alcoholic or non-alcoholic drink.

What are we to do?

We now know that the Bible speaks of two types of wine - fermented and unfermented, alcoholic and non-alcoholic. How then are we to unmistakable determine those times in the scriptures where there is no direct indication of the alcoholic content?

I believe we need to examine all scriptures and determine for ourselves which is most harmonious to the entirety of God's Word which will not contradict itself in any way. If the instructions say not to drink "wine," it is alcoholic. If they say the "wine" is a blessing, it is non-alcoholic. It's as simple as that!

You Must Decide and Take a Stand

At this point the casual, social drinker must ask himself several questions. First, having previously justified my drinking by the scriptural passages of Jesus turning the water into wine and even using it himself in the Lord's supper, how can I now continue to drink alcohol?

Second, am I willing to hear and obey God's commandments and heed his warning to his servants? Do I truly have a desire to put Jesus first in my life and seek first the kingdom of God? Since Rom 14:21 specifically says, drinking could be a stumbling block to my brother, am I willing to give it up completely?
Rom 14:21 "It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak." (KJV) In full knowledge of these scriptures, why do you drink? to be socially accepted? because it is a drug that makes you feel good? or is it because you are in open defiance against God and his word?

The scriptures have only one word on drinking alcoholic beverages of any kind -
TOTAL ABSTINENCE!!!

This article by an Assemblies of God minister seems to say that our current day understanding of wine is not the same as it was in Biblical times.

Drinking is not a sin. How could it be? Jesus not only turned water into wine, but also drank wine Himself. If the statement that 'Jesus is without sin' is true, then His actions, all of His actions must not be considered sin, and that includes drinking. The sin is getting drunk.

If wine in the Bible was alcoholic, as our wine today is, then I guess I agree with you.
However, it is wise to remember that alcohol is a habit-forming substance.
We wouldn't want to be lured into alcoholism.
It is wise to be careful.
 
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Melethiel

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Yes, but apparently there is some controversy about just how much alcoholic content there really was.
Enough for people to get drunk. Enough for the Pharisees to accuse Jesus of being a drunkard. Not to mention that preventing grape juice from fermenting before the invention of pasteurization was nigh on impossible.
 
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E

erdnuss

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This is my belief on drinking...
I think getting drunk or even drinking often is as easy as black and white. It is wrong. It's harmful for your body, it's harmful to others (like if you went out to drive while drunk) and acohol can easy become addicting which then makes it's more important than God in ones life, it becomes like an idol in your life.
Drinking as in having one beer or a glass of wine, maybe on margarita on occassion...that's in the grey. This is when your covictions come in. I have a very close friend of mine who has a past with acohol. He use to be addicted. He believes it's wrong for him to even be around it because he knows what it did to him in the past and he knows he can easly go back to his past ways if he takes even just one sip. He has the selfcontrol to not go and buy any, but if someone handed him a beer and he took one sip, he knows it'd just take him back to his past.
I have another friend who's never had acohol but still feels God wants her to stay away from it.
I personally don't feel any convictions against having a glass of wine or one margarita on occassion. I rarely drink, but the times I do, it's one glass and no more.
If you limit yourself to one glass and you don't scarf it all down in a few minutes but take your time drinking it, then it won't do any damage to the body and some wines can even have a cleansing effect in the body if only drinking a very small amount.
So getting drunk or drinking a lot? wrong
Having 1 drink from time to time? As God and go with your convictions. If you feel it's wrong, then don't drink because God has his reasons why he doesn't want you to drink, but if you don't have any convictions against having an occassional drink? then it's probably ok.
Also, don't drink infront of someone if you know they believe it's wrong. Paul even talks about not eating meet infront of someon who's religion is against eating certain meats...if you are spending time with someone and you know they have convictions against drinking, even if you belive God says it's ok for you to drink on occassion, choose not to drink infront of them so you don't tempt them to go against their convictions. Obviously if we are out in a croud, we can't go around and ask everyone ot make sure everyone's ok with you having 1 beer, so this only applies when you know you are with someone who has convictions against it. And this applies to many things in life because we need to look out for our fellow brothers and sisters :)
 
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FallingWaters

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As I read 1 Corinthians 8-10, the problem is that some people worshiped idols by eating meat sacrificed to them. Paul acknowledges that the Corinthians he addressed knew better, but he was concerned that some Christians would be led into real idolatry when they saw their brethren doing something that only had the appearance of idolatry.

If we follow your logic, we would all be bound to avoid any action that offended any Christian, even if their objections were nonsensical. There's no way to live according to that principle, which suggests to me that it isn't what Paul is trying to say.

Alan
For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol's temple, will he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak,
to eat food offered to idols? 1Cor 8:10 ESV


The words I underlined might have some importance in understanding this verse; John Gill points it out.

In applying this to myself, I would think that if someone looked up to me as their Sunday school teacher,
or as a mature Christian, and they were new in the Lord,
they might get a wrong impression from seeing me drinking or doing whatever else might not be fully in our best interest to do.
I think this is saying, if I am "known" as one who has knowledge of godly things,
I am to be more careful of my example.
And James gives such a warning:
Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.
James 3:1 ESV
 
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