• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Drinking question

Status
Not open for further replies.

Sojourner<><

Incoherent Freedom Fighter
Mar 23, 2005
1,606
14
45
✟24,385.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I think anyone who struggles with addiction doesn't really have a substance problem, but a life problem. Some thing deep down inside is broken and can only be fixed by God. The substance abuse is a symptom of it and it probably just makes things worse, so anyone who has this problem should steer clear of any substances that fuel the fire so to speak. I don't think that addiction can be truly overcome unless the Lord gives the victory.
 
Upvote 0

MarkEvan

Senior Veteran
Jun 15, 2006
2,279
482
Manchester
✟27,342.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
As I read 1 Corinthians 8-10, the problem is that some people worshiped idols by eating meat sacrificed to them. Paul acknowledges that the Corinthians he addressed knew better, but he was concerned that some Christians would be led into real idolatry when they saw their brethren doing something that only had the appearance of idolatry.

If we follow your logic, we would all be bound to avoid any action that offended any Christian, even if their objections were nonsensical. There's no way to live according to that principle, which suggests to me that it isn't what Paul is trying to say.

Alan


The reason that the corinthians didn`t eat meat was due to the fact that the OT told them not to, because it had been sacrificed to idols. It was unclean for them to eat that meat. Paul was concerned not because it might lead weaker believers into idolatry, but because they still believed that it was wrong for them to eat meat sacrificed to idols as it was in the OT, and because of that belief if they ate meat because they saw somone who was a mature believer doing it....and had not reconciled it wihin their own conciense.....then they would have violated their conscience, and so sinned.


I am not talking about the nonsensicle arguments! And finally if you were doing something which was causing a weaker believer to stumble, would you continue to do it?

"Woe to him by whom the stumbling block comes"

Mark

i will not be able to reply till monday so my appologies at the wait you will have if you reply
 
Upvote 0

MrsJoy

In love with my wonderful husband
Jan 17, 2007
1,884
63
✟24,890.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Personally, I feel it's wrong to drink........have you ever studied the statistics about what alcohol has done to our society?.......broken homes, automobile deaths, domestic violence, sexual immorality..........WHY would a Christian EVER want to partake of something that COULD lead them into sin?........alcohol affects your thinking and judgement, God should be in control, not alcohol.....stay away from it, it IS a drug.........I DON'T believe the "water into wine" miracle was an ALCOHOLIC wine......I'm sorry, I just don't think Jesus would do that.......of course MANY disagree, and I'm not here to argue that point..............I just think Christians should stay away from alcohol.
have you looked at statistics on car accidents lately and how they affects peoples lives?
I don't know why any Christian would want to drive one!!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tamara224
Upvote 0

MrsJoy

In love with my wonderful husband
Jan 17, 2007
1,884
63
✟24,890.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
ive studied that jesus did not drink strong drink because his blood is PURE and could not be mixed with alcohol because the alchol would take part in cleanign our sins..and the lord wouldnt have that, so he drank grape juice.
rediculous man-created ideas:sick:
 
Upvote 0

MrsJoy

In love with my wonderful husband
Jan 17, 2007
1,884
63
✟24,890.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Drinking is certainly not a sin. Gluttony is a sin, not drinking.

Also to my understanding grape juice, back in Biblical times, was VERY hard to preserve. I believe that it could only be safely stored for only a few months because they lacked preservatives. Thus grape juice was a luxury and only really used by the very rich. So I am almost positive that those verses refer to Wine not grape juice.
:thumbsup: yes, this is true!
 
Upvote 0

MrsJoy

In love with my wonderful husband
Jan 17, 2007
1,884
63
✟24,890.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
You all seem to wanna be making excuses for drinking........
let's see...excuse something that is not a sin.
excuse something that MEN have made rules for NOT GOD.
LEGALISM is what you are excusing.
we are not excusing squat.
for it does not need to be excused.
legalism on the other hand...:sick:
.I guess toying with something that could control you is OK......
shall we all stop driving cars, walking across the street, eating fast food, eating out at all (for the food might not be cared for properly and we could get food poisioning and this is toying with the unknown and our very lives!). and on and on it goes.
you say......"all things in moderation"............problem is...how do YOU know when enough is enough, since it's a scientific fact that after only a couple drinks your judgement/thinking is impaired?
everyone knows what moderation is for them.
to say that you can't tell because it impares you is both ignorant and naive. not to mention judgemental.
............I've seen all too many Christians DRUNK because they thought they could "handle" a couple........wasn't very pretty, and surely wasn't a good testimony........WHY would you want to convey that message to an unsaved world.?.......

.to me, that makes them think
"I don't need God ,cos you're no better, or different than I am".................not for me!.........JMHO :)
because some Christians I know have gotten into car accidents, I don't think that Christians should drive cars anymore. a FEW gave a bad testimony through driving, so, NO Christian should drive.
 
Upvote 0

MrsJoy

In love with my wonderful husband
Jan 17, 2007
1,884
63
✟24,890.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
"Spirits" contain alcohol............what is the purpose of drinking alcohol if not to alter your state of mind???.......most people would say to relax or celebrate...........I can do that without drinking anything.....................I just don't think that's a Godly thing to do.
too bad scripture does not back you up on this.
legalism and man-made ideas do not equal the Word of God.
and it is clearly shown that wine "to gladden the heart" is seen as a BLESSING.
if , to you that is the purpose then for you it would indeed be a sin.
but to superinpose that into a universal idea is not only unwise but unbiblical.
 
Upvote 0

MrsJoy

In love with my wonderful husband
Jan 17, 2007
1,884
63
✟24,890.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
But...........I thought we are the temples of the Holy Spirit and that we are supposed to be holy because God is holy. Where's the holiness in alcohol (whether it's done in moderation or not)??? :scratch:
the verse about being a temple of the holy spirit is one of the most abused passages in scripture. abused by Christians no less.
This passage is speaking of, and only of SEXUAL IMMORALITY!!
NOTHING ELSE.
:doh:
and even if you were to follow that line of thinking, we are not talking about drunkeness in which such a thing would actually affect your temple.
as for the holiness: nowhere is drinking shown to be less than holy.
that is a MAN MADE idea.
very similar to what the Pharissees did actually
 
Upvote 0

MrsJoy

In love with my wonderful husband
Jan 17, 2007
1,884
63
✟24,890.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
A very good article:


Drinking
Ronnie Hoover

Today we live in an alcohol saturated society where it is "in" to drink. We need to familiarize ourselves with the real Bible based, Christian perspective on drinking. Many parents, teachers, Campus Pastors, and even preachers shy away from discussing this subject with their students, hoping that the youth of today will be smart enough to make all the right choices where alcohol is concerned. Unfortunately, most alcoholics become interested in drinking at an early age, and I am certain that these men and women, their lives now controlled by alcohol, did not sit down with a panel of experts and discuss the pros and cons of social drinking. They saw, they tasted, they indulged. Therefore, there is no better time than the present to get an honest understanding of the subject - before it is too late.

What Does the Bible Say?

There seems to be a contradiction of thoughts in the Bible about drinking fermented (alcoholic) wine. Solomon, whose great wisdom gave us the books of Proverbs and Ecclesiastes, declared, Prov 20:1 "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." (KJV) How could he then say, " Eccl 9:7 "Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works." (KJV) Did the wisest man of all times forget what warnings he had just given?

God himself gave a direct command to the priests and their sons to abstain from wine and strong drink when entering the tabernacle. Then, after they had entered the promised land, he instructed that the "drink offering should be of wine." Lev. 24:13 Is it possible that our God, who is perfect in all his ways has changed his mind on this subject?

And what about Paul, the great apostle? Did he encourage Timothy to drink fermented wine? Did he entice Timothy, a young leader and officer of the church, to drink wine, when he had just instructed the bishops of the church not to be given to wine? Did Paul, a learned man of the holy scriptures, purposely ignore the warning of the King Solomon and the prophet Habakkuk?

A Deeper Look Into the Word

Many, I might add most, Bible commentaries imply that all wine referred to in the scriptures is indeed fermented, alcoholic wine. They suggest the Bible only speaks against "immoderate" drinking. "Moderation" is used only one time in the Bible and it is not speaking about drinking. These commentaries rely on basically two forms of study about issues like this: Tradition and what I'll call the splitting of ancient words, etymology.

Traditionally, Christians and Jews often drank vintage wines as they still do in Europe... traditionally, fermented wine was used in the Passover celebration and communion... Tradition is a wonderful thing, BUT, tradition does not make it correct, nor does it make it scriptural.

Now for some splitting of ancient words. There are 13 different words translated as "wine" - 9 in Hebrew and Chaldee, and 4 in Greek. The most common Greek word for wine is "oinos" which corresponds to the Hebrew word "yayin," and the Latin word Vinum. (That ought to tell you something.) These words all translate into our English word "wine." In the Septuagint (the Greek version of the Hebrew scriptures of Jesus' time) the Hebrew word for grape juice is translated 33 times as the Greek word "oinos" (wine). It is also used to denote other kinds of drinks such as lotus fruits and dates. (1)

Wine? or Wine? Is there a difference?

The problem is with this word "wine." Some believe that the word "wine," unless used figuratively or qualified by another word or phrase, ALWAYS means the fermented juice of the grape - alcohol. How can we know this to be true? The truth is, we don't know. The word "juice" doesn't appear in the New Testament at all, and only once in the Old Testament. All fruit of the vine - whether it be grape juice or alcoholic wine - is called wine. Sometimes the context makes it clear that the meaning is actually fermented wine. Other times it is clear that the meaning is definitely unfermented wine or juice. The problem occurs when the immediate context sheds no light as to whether the wine is to be considered fermented or unfermented.

Non-Alcoholic Wine

The Hebrew "yayin" (wine) includes all types both fermented and unfermented drinks. (2) Yayin when fermented makes one drunk as in Gen. 9:21-24. There are indeed passages of scripture using the word yayin, which according to the context are obviously referring to the non-alcoholic wines. Isa 16:10 "...the treaders shall tread out no wine in their presses ...." (KJV) Also, Jer 48:33 " ... and I have caused wine to fail from the winepresses: ..." (KJV) Alcoholic, fermented wine doesn't squirt out of the grape freshly placed into the press, only pure grape juice, unfermented and non-alcoholic "yayin." This is the "wine" Isaiah said there was a blessing in.

Was Jesus a Casual Drinker?

The Wedding at Cana:

What about the wedding at Cana? Jesus turned the water in the pots into wine for himself and all the guests, didn't he? Some modern versions of the Bible wrongly translate John 2:10 by stating or insinuating that normally, after the guest were too drunk to know the difference, the host of the wedding would serve the cheap wine. The translators made a mistake by assuming that the wine was fermented. How could they know? Had the wine not just been made? The Amplified Bible translates the passage this way, "When the people had drunk freely..." The Phillips Translation reads like this, "When men have had plenty to drink," thus leaving room for the reader to determine whether he thought the wine Jesus made was alcoholic or not. This leaves room for one to understand that the guests had merely drank so much that they were full - not intoxicated.

Can you really see our Lord Jesus, the Holy One of Israel contributing to revellers? Does not Rom 13:14 say, "... make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (KJV) If Jesus had provided wine for revellers, He would have been in opposition to this warning of scripture. 1 Cor 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. (KJV) Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (KJV) Revelling is what college students call, partying.

Jesus is called the King of Kings and Prov 31:4-5 says, "It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:"

Some theologians would say that if the wine were not fermented, it could not be called, "good wine." However, history speaks of a drink that was meant for the gods - nectar or ambrosia, the pure fruit of the vine and non-alcoholic! In Cana, the guests claimed that the best wine was saved for the last. It’s probable that Jesus turned the water in the pots into the best wine - ambrosia!

The Lord's Supper:

Did Jesus serve alcohol to his disciples at the Last Supper to establish a pattern for us to follow in our communion services?

Can you imagine what Solomon would have said if the wine Jesus served was alcoholic? Prov 20:1 Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler; whoever is led astray by them is not wise. (NIV) Prov 31:4-5 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: 5 Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. (KJV)

The prophet Habakkuk would have had to remind the son of God, "woe unto him that giveth his neighbor to drink." (this refers to giving with wrong motives.) What about God Himself? When He had said in Lev 10:8-9, "Then the LORD said to Aaron, You and your sons are not to drink wine or other fermented drink whenever you go into the Tent of Meeting, or you will die. This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come." (NIV) Also, Ezek 44:21 says, "No priest is to drink wine when he enters the inner court." (NIV) Surely in the light of these scriptures we couldn't continue to believe that Jesus would have established Holy Communion, an order of worship to take place in the sanctuary, with the use of alcohol. Jesus could have completely destroyed the authenticity of God's Word by setting the New Testament against the Old. Contrary to popular belief, the word wine is not used in any passage concerning the Lord's supper. When speaking of the drink used, Jesus uses only the word "cup." He then tells us, "I will not drink of this (fruit of the vine) cup until that day when I drink it with you in my Father's kingdom." Jesus was obviously referring to fruit juice from the grape vine, and not alcoholic fermented wine.

But Wine is Good for the Stomach

1 Tim 5:23 "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities." (KJV)

I am not sure of all the medical ramifications behind this passage. I don't see a scriptural problem with using medicines that contain alcohol content. This is a difficult passage, because I know that alcohol is a difficult substance for the digestive system to eliminate.
Regardless, the same thought remains, we do not know if this word is referring to alcoholic or non-alcoholic drink.

What are we to do?

We now know that the Bible speaks of two types of wine - fermented and unfermented, alcoholic and non-alcoholic. How then are we to unmistakable determine those times in the scriptures where there is no direct indication of the alcoholic content?

I believe we need to examine all scriptures and determine for ourselves which is most harmonious to the entirety of God's Word which will not contradict itself in any way. If the instructions say not to drink "wine," it is alcoholic. If they say the "wine" is a blessing, it is non-alcoholic. It's as simple as that!

You Must Decide and Take a Stand

At this point the casual, social drinker must ask himself several questions. First, having previously justified my drinking by the scriptural passages of Jesus turning the water into wine and even using it himself in the Lord's supper, how can I now continue to drink alcohol?

Second, am I willing to hear and obey God's commandments and heed his warning to his servants? Do I truly have a desire to put Jesus first in my life and seek first the kingdom of God? Since Rom 14:21 specifically says, drinking could be a stumbling block to my brother, am I willing to give it up completely?
Rom 14:21 "It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak." (KJV) In full knowledge of these scriptures, why do you drink? to be socially accepted? because it is a drug that makes you feel good? or is it because you are in open defiance against God and his word?

The scriptures have only one word on drinking alcoholic beverages of any kind -
TOTAL ABSTINENCE!!!

totally BALONGA in it's purest form!!!

2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
5"Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'

13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. 25"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.


How appropriate for those who are not only ADDING MAN MADE RULES to God's Word, but also twisting Scripture!
For example...um, let's think about this logically.
why would they bring out the better GRAPE JUICE out first and then the worst at the end normally??
because the guests would have drunk so much grape juice that they wouldn't notice?
Come now!

and, as has been pointed out already, only the rich could afford to keep grape juice.
look into it.

and the Lord's supper-they were indeed drinking, are you ready for this ? WINE!!
they were partaking in the PASSOVER.
again, look into this!
according to the laws and regulations that govern this they were drinking WINE.
and , by the way, in the begining of the article he says that scripture contridicts itself!!
God changed His mind??
Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?
or , you have to claim such things in order to back up this legalism??
 
Upvote 0

MrsJoy

In love with my wonderful husband
Jan 17, 2007
1,884
63
✟24,890.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
I'm sorry......it sounds like you enjoy your sin and are trying to make excuses for it.....if that's legalism, Jim, then I'm proud to be a legalist.....I'm done arguing this.....wasn't my intention, so I'll let it go.
SIN?
you have not even shown this to be SIN!!!!
GOD DOES NOT CALL THIS SIN.
adding to God's Word.
Deuteronomy 4:2
Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.
Deuteronomy 12:32
See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.

Proverbs 30:6
Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.
 
Upvote 0

MrsJoy

In love with my wonderful husband
Jan 17, 2007
1,884
63
✟24,890.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
I'm confused about what you're saying.
You've obviously spent a lot of time thinking about this.

You think it's ok for a Christian to drink?
You would not think of that person as a carnal Christian?

How exactly does a Christian attain holiness in your opinion?

Is there anything a Christan should abstain from if they want to be holy?
how does drinking make one unholy?
this is not a scriptural idea.
becoming drunk would cross that line, but not drinking.
Why would wine be shown as such a blessing and used as a picture of bounty and joy if it was a picture of unholiness?
too many times we believe what we have been taught instead of digging in ourselves.
i do not know if this is the case for you (although it sounds like it might be).
it was for me for quite a few years.
but when i actually started to dig in and study it for myself I realized that the idea of drinking being a sin was not found in scripture.
 
Upvote 0

MrsJoy

In love with my wonderful husband
Jan 17, 2007
1,884
63
✟24,890.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
I knew someone would come back at me with something like that.
That's why I tried to carefully word my statement.

If alcohol is so healthy, why don't we serve it to our children?
driving is not unhealthy, yet we do not allow children to do so.
why? because they do not have the motor skills and other decesion making skills yet. they are not yet ready.

children for one thing do not have the body mass to handle such things.
or the wisdom that goes along with such a responsibility.

but, come to think of it, in many countries where the law is different than here, many, under the direction of their parents DO drink wine.

which comes to the main reason:
we are instructed by God to obey the authorities set over us, and that includes laws on this.
 
Upvote 0

MrsJoy

In love with my wonderful husband
Jan 17, 2007
1,884
63
✟24,890.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
That doesn't make it right.

No one will ever convince me alcohol is healthy when there are so many bad side effects, besides the damage it does to the organs like the liver and kidneys.
abuse of ANYTHING leads to destruction.
that does not mean we should avoid anything that if abused can hurt us.
 
Upvote 0

MrsJoy

In love with my wonderful husband
Jan 17, 2007
1,884
63
✟24,890.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
The Bible doesn't warn us about pie or coffee though..........it DOES warn us against EXACTLY that with alcohol.



Originally Posted by WarriorAngel


I admit I have had a few too many a few times in my life, but it was not my intent.<quote>
wrong again.
it tells us that gluttony is sin.
OOPS!
 
Upvote 0

MrsJoy

In love with my wonderful husband
Jan 17, 2007
1,884
63
✟24,890.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Too much pie or cheeseburgers doesn't ALTER my inhibitions....cause me to think and act differently.....cause me to drive and harm others potentially......cause me to do things I may not even remember doing the next day......can you not see the difference in that?
if you are drinking in moderation , as scripture dictates none of those things accompany drinking either.
i have NEVER been drunk or dealt with any of those posibilities.
 
Upvote 0

MrsJoy

In love with my wonderful husband
Jan 17, 2007
1,884
63
✟24,890.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
It's sad to partake of something that the Bible speaks of as a blessing, something which Jesus partook also of, something which He created for others to partake of as well ... sure, you're right ...
yes, it always brings me to tears when i am relaxing with my dh having a little something, or when we are enjoying a glass of wine during a family get together full of love.
 
Upvote 0

MrsJoy

In love with my wonderful husband
Jan 17, 2007
1,884
63
✟24,890.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
But this would make no sense in the principle of eating meat, those who thought it wrong did so not because they sufferewd from temptation, but because they thought they saw from scripture that it was wrong, and although Paul seeks to educate them in the issue, he also says that if it causes someone to stumble then he will never eat meat again.

James says "he then that knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, to him it is sin," in this context and from what they believe the scriptures teach, if those who consider drinking wine wrong, to them it would be!

Yes I agree that those who know it not to be sin, should teach those who think it isn`t, however we should never let our liberty cause someon eto stumble.

Mark :)
yes, i do agree with you on this.
we are told to think of others more highly than ourselves!
how is doing something against another's consciences putting them above ourselves!
i'de say just the opposite is true!
it's not about our rights!
1 Corinthians 10:24
Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.