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iafic

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I like this post. I hate alcohol and obhore it in everyway. I never saw the point in "one or two" either. But again, not sin, but what's the point? I am not judgemental or legalistic about it. I have just seen too many Christians try and justify a NEED for alcohol. Even if it's one or two. last Saturday at my new church, two people were talking about how they have rum and cokes on occasion out at a restaurant. Or they like the cosmopolitans. I sat there amazed. No, they weren't sinning...but I couldn't help but wonder WHY they would want to drink. I just don't understand it.

good thread guys, I hope no one is being offended. Love you all!!!!
 
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God_Owned

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Even if Christians feel they are legally free to drink wine by doing so are we gaining so much benefit that is worth the possibility of corrupting someone else and possibly leading them into sin?

Legalism has nothing to do with it. why do you take a legalistic approach instead of just accepting what the Bible says.

So when you eat meat, you run the same risk according to the Bible and just think of all those who, according to your theory, Jesus corrupted when He made and drank wine.

Do you see wine mentioned in the following verse. I do see where it says the Holy Ghost thinks it good not to lay a greater burden on those than necessary.

Acts 15:28-30
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.



No one can control what other erroneously think. Personally I wouldn't have gone for the group wine drinking thin, but then aging Jesus participated in a group win drinking thing at the wedding feast. Do you think Jesus sinned?
 
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God_Owned

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You should see me justify eating food.

As a matter of fact, in most Churches I've beenin, I've seen the results of a lot of people justigfying food.

Of course with the issue of wine, Jesus set the example and I don't need to justify Him.

Yep, Jesus turned water into wine, but His Church is trying to turn the wine back into water, no matter what it takes or who they have have to condemn. How odd!

 
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Diatheke

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(WebMD) -- Even the most heartening news about the health benefits of wine wasn't enough to convince Susan Sanford to imbibe. "I've just never liked the taste of alcohol," says Sanford, 42, a film sound engineer in Northern California. "Still, with all the headlines, you can't help wondering whether you're missing out on something that might lower your risk of heart disease."
Well, Susan Sanford, worry no more. If you don't like wine, the latest studies show you can get almost all the same benefits from grape juice. The reason: Purple grape juice contains the same powerful disease-fighting antioxidants, called flavonoids, that are believed to give wine many of its heart-friendly benefits.

What'll it be: Wine or Welch's?


The flavonoids in grape juice, like those in wine, have been shown to prevent the oxidation of so-called bad cholesterol (LDLs, or low-density lipoproteins) that leads to formation of plaque in artery walls.
In a study published in 1999 in the journal Circulation, researchers at the University of Wisconsin Medical School in Madison asked 15 patients who already showed clinical signs of cardiovascular disease -- including plaque-constricted arteries -- to drink a tall glass of grape juice daily. After 14 days, blood tests revealed that LDL oxidation in these patients was significantly reduced. And ultrasound images showed changes in the artery walls, indicating that their blood was flowing more freely.
Grape juice can also lower the risk of developing the blood clots that lead to heart attacks, according to unpublished findings from Georgetown University researcher Jane Freedman, M.D. So can red wine, but in this case grape juice is the more practical way to go: "Wine only prevents blood from clotting (when it's consumed) at levels high enough to declare someone legally drunk," says University of Wisconsin researcher John Folts, Ph.D. "With grape juice, you can drink enough to get the benefit without worrying about becoming intoxicated."
What's more, alcoholic drinks don't seem to improve the function of cells in blood vessel linings the way grape juice does. And alcohol generates free radicals -- unstable oxygen molecules that can actually cause damage to blood vessel tissues -- dampening any of the benefits that red wine's antioxidants may offer.

Longer-lasting protection


Even better news, for Sanford and other teetotalers, is that the antioxidants in grape juice appear to linger in the body longer than do those in wine.
At the University of California, Davis, researchers took a 1996 cabernet sauvignon, removed all the alcohol, and asked a group of nine volunteers to alternate between drinking the nonalcoholic wine one day and an alcoholic version the next. In their findings, reported in the January 2000 issue of the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, a key antioxidant called catechin remained in the blood for more than 4 hours after the volunteers drank the nonalcoholic wine, compared to only 3.2 hours for the full-strength cabernet. Apparently, alcohol hastens the breakdown of the antioxidant in the blood, speeding its elimination from the body.
But wine may provide at least one benefit grape juice doesn't: Alcohol has been shown to increase levels of HDL, the so-called good cholesterol, in the blood.
(now disproven by newer study - 2004 attached below)

Even so, if you're a non-drinker, grape juice is a terrific way to get many of wine's potential health benefits, Folts says. If you do go for the juice, choose the purple kind, which is far richer in antioxidant flavonoids than red or white. Surprisingly, eating red table grapes won't provide as much protection. That's because the juice is made by crushing not just the skin and flesh but the seeds, too, which are especially rich in flavonoids. White grapes and grape juice won't do either, because they don't contain the flavonoids that purple or red grapes do.
Sanford can now rest assured. With a glass of purple grape juice with breakfast or for an afternoon snack, her heart can realize the same benefits as those of her wine-drinking friends. And if you don't want wine at dinner, uncork one of the fine nonalcoholic reds on the market. They're loaded with antioxidants as well as great flavor -- and you can drink all you like without worrying about driving home.
© 2000 Healtheon/WebMD. All rights reserved.


Nov. 19, 2004 -- Move over, wine. Nonalcoholic grape juice may also be heart-friendly, raising levels of HDL ("good") cholesterol, according to a new study.
The findings are reported in a letter to the editor of the November edition of Arteriosclerosis, Thrombosis, and Vascular Biology.
The study was conducted by researchers including Jane Freedman, MD, associate professor of medicine and pharmacology at Boston University's medical school and was partially funded by an unrestricted grant from grape juice maker Welch's.
Freedman and colleagues studied 17 men and three women with previously diagnosed heart disease. Participants were 63 years old, on average. Ten had high blood pressure and four were current smokers.
The patients were taking standard treatments for their heart problems including aspirin therapy. Blood tests were done looking at their fasting cholesterol and good HDL values at each visit.
The participants were assigned to drink either purple Concord grape juice or a placebo beverage for 14 days. Afterward, they abstained from both drinks for 14 days. Finally, they repeated the test using whichever drink they hadn't already tried.
"Good" HDL levels "significantly increased" in participants when they drank grape juice, write the researchers.
Grape juice drinkers had HDL levels of 50 mg/dL, compared with almost 45 mg/dL in the placebo group. An HDL level below 40 mg/dL is considered a risk factor for heart disease.
The grape juice group also had lower levels of two indicators of inflammation: superoxide and soluble CD40 ligand. Inflammation plays a key role in atherosclerosis, or hardening of the arteries.
Soluble CD40 ligand is thought to contribute to the development of atherosclerosis and vascular inflammation, says Freedman in a news release.
Other indicators of inflammation weren't affected, probably because patients were already taking aspirin to fight inflammation.
The results suggest that alcohol-free grape juice might provide some of the cardiovascular benefits seen in studies of wine.
"There has been great interest in the possible benefits of drinking red wine for people with cardiovascular disease. But it has been offset, to a certain extent, by concerns about promoting alcohol consumption," says Freedman in the news release. This has led to the exploration of non- alcoholic grape products.
This is the first study to show its positive effect on CD40 ligand, an emerging indicator of heart disease, even in people already on aspirin.

 
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God_Owned

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I guess Suzie won't be dringking wine.
 
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Tcelt12

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i see the evidence thats been posted concerning 'health benefits',but it seems to contradict the other evidence posted(the geisler comments).not being an authority,i can only say most of what i've seen and read (including scripture)warns us to abstain.is Jesus trying to play with my mind??is it consistent with His character to introduce people to a substance that will lead them to destroy their bodies and minds?to advocate imbibing it at a celebration of life?you tell me.
i seems to me a few grapes a day and an all around healthy lifestyle would do the trick for us.

Alcohol is not being 'shoved down our throats'by the media for it's medicinal value.it's being pushed on young people in this country harder than ever.watch evening t.v. for ten minutes..especially the youth markets..

i say we should take a strong stand against it for their sakes if we love them.picking up a bottle 'to relax by'just sends a message of approval.
Like the brother said earlier..'she was relaxed,alright'..
 
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God_Owned

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Regardless of the substance, abuse is abuse, i.e. food, drugs and what about sex. It seems that divorce leads many to abuse of both drugs and alcohol, yet I haven't even seen it mentioned.

By the way, my son doesn't drink, do drugs or smoke. He has had a struggle with lying and controlling his sexual impulses, both of which are serous issues which he needs to deal with. He has pretty much stopped lying, but I expect he has a ways to go on the other issue.

He has also never been to a Spring Break or various other heathen activities.

 
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God_Owned

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I haven't seen anyone really address these two verses.

Jesus did turn water into wine.

John 2:8-10
8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.
9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,

It didn't stop Jesus from doing miracles.

John 4:46, 49-50
46 So Jesus came again into Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine. And there was a certain nobleman, whose son was sick at Capernaum.
49 The nobleman saith unto him, Sir, come down ere my child die.
50 Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. And the man believed the word that Jesus had spoken unto him, and he went his way.

Even thogh Jesus posessed miraculous healing powers, Jesus did recommend it for health reasons.

1 Timothy 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Finally, why do some in the Church lay the additional burden of abstinence on others as a requirement for Holiness?

Acts 15:28-30
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

[SIZE=+1]oi\noß Oinos (oy'-nos);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Masculine, Strong #: 3631

  1. wine
  2. metaph. fiery wine of God's wrath
[/SIZE]



Hmmmmmmmmmm!
 
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God_Owned

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BTW, thanks for the info about grape juice being as good as wine for the heart.

Not entirely true according to my source.

"Alcohol's health benefits chiefly favor the cardiovascular system, and are dramatically reflected in reduced risks of atherosclerotic heart attacks, ischemic strokes and limb amputations due to compromised blood supply. Scientific views on the healthful effects of wine's other compounds are not as unanimous, however, but are under increased scrutiny. We are just beginning to peel back the layers of understanding. "

 
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Tcelt12

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yes, many substances can be abused.but alcohol is much more effective in altering ones God given (and therefore morally correct)inhibition.
abusing candy will not have the same effect on our culture as abusing alcohol or some other drug.lets be realistic.
I see plenty of documented evidence has been given to show healthy alternatives to wine.

Whats very interesting is the fact that people are willing to defend alcohol to this point.(no offense to anyone).but it does say something to me about the insidious nature of the flesh.IMHO.
 
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God_Owned

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Let's be realistic. Obesity is a huge problem, pun intended.
Alcohol consumption is ranked third in mortality contribution. Diet activity is number one.


I see plenty of documented evidence has been given to show healthy alternatives to wine.


There is no real alternative to wine. There are simply other things you can take that give you some of the same benefits, not necessarily all the benefits. Wine is wine, other things are other things.

Whats very interesting is the fact that people are willing to defend alcohol to this point.(no offense to anyone).but it does say something to me about the insidious nature of the flesh.IMHO.

I'm not defending alcohol to any point. I'm simply stating what is in the Word. Why don't you directly address the verses I previously cited?

 
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Tcelt12

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as far as the verses you posted..i agree with what the scripture says,but i do not believe it was the 'strong drink'of today.My friend,the life one will be led into through alcohol abuse will be one of throwing off restraint morally.where do our morals come from?our restraint?from our recognition of God and His law.the drunkard flouts that law and sins in his foolish drunken stupor.I know i DID.It leads to spiritual death.

How many go and murder another man (or woman)because they've overeaten? thats the danger of it.
Thats my point.
 
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God_Owned

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as far as the verses you posted..i agree with what the scripture says,but i do not believe it was the 'strong drink'of today.

There is no valid reason to believe that wine then isn't what we call wine today. The Governor of the feast would not have been impressed with grape juice. They were having a get down/up Jewish party. You still have not directly addressed the scriptures I gave.



Food, along with many over the counter drugs, will kill you too if you abuse it, but do you obtain from eating? people commit suicide in cars every year, but we don't outlaw cars. People commit suicide all sorts of way but we rarely outlaw the means by which they did it.

How many go and murder another man (or woman)because they've overeaten? thats the danger of it. Thats my point.

I guess the families they leave behind don't suffer?

People are only over taken because they, not the wine, decide to drink to excess. We need to put the responsibility where it belongs.

It is odd, that given the facts about dietary related deathes, you have said noting abuot food.

 
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J4Jesus

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First, how do you feel about drinking overall





PreacherMike, PastorJ, Diatheke, Tcelt12, iafic
I agree with you

Sorry this is so long. Learning to use our NEW QUOTE button. I hate it
Click QUOTE on each person's post that you want to quote . Then click POST REPLY and there you have it!
 
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