Dr Walt Brown.

[Aussie Pete]

Dr Brown is a Christian who has been researching creation and Noah's flood for decades. As you would expect, he is ridiculed by evolutionists and praised by his supporters. I found his book, "In the Beginning" fascinating reading. Some aspects of his theories I found hard to accept.

One of the difficulties relates to his flood theory. I agree that it was world-wide, but he also had an aspect of his theory that requires vast amounts of underground water. This is called "fountains of the deep" in the Bible. Some sceptics have claimed that there was just not enough water to cover the earth. Or is there? Recently, vast amounts of water have been discovered underground. It's been known for a long time that there is water stored in the earth's crust and in aquifers. According to Nature and phys.org,

"A staggering store of water is revealed in Earth’s crust (Nature). Scientists at the University of Saskatchewan used modeling techniques to estimate the amount of groundwater contained in pore spaces of sedimentary rock. Their surprising conclusion “estimated that the uppermost 10 kilometres of Earth’s crust holds nearly 44 million cubic kilometres of water.” Phys.org headlines the fact that such a volume “makes groundwater, not ice sheets, the largest reservoir on land.” It also doubles previous estimates of water stored in the earth’s crust."

I don't expect any sceptic to have a change of mind because of this new information. It may help Christians to overcome doubts about the flood. Personally, I take God at His word. Our limited understanding does not mean that the Bible is incorrect. From time to time, science catches up to God.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Dr Brown is a Christian who has been researching creation and Noah's flood for decades. As you would expect, he is ridiculed by evolutionists and praised by his supporters. I found his book, "In the Beginning" fascinating reading. Some aspects of his theories I found hard to accept.

One of the difficulties relates to his flood theory. I agree that it was world-wide, but he also had an aspect of his theory that requires vast amounts of underground water. This is called "fountains of the deep" in the Bible. Some sceptics have claimed that there was just not enough water to cover the earth. Or is there? Recently, vast amounts of water have been discovered underground. It's been known for a long time that there is water stored in the earth's crust and in aquifers. According to Nature and phys.org,

"A staggering store of water is revealed in Earth’s crust (Nature). Scientists at the University of Saskatchewan used modeling techniques to estimate the amount of groundwater contained in pore spaces of sedimentary rock. Their surprising conclusion “estimated that the uppermost 10 kilometres of Earth’s crust holds nearly 44 million cubic kilometres of water.” Phys.org headlines the fact that such a volume “makes groundwater, not ice sheets, the largest reservoir on land.” It also doubles previous estimates of water stored in the earth’s crust."

I don't expect any sceptic to have a change of mind because of this new information. It may help Christians to overcome doubts about the flood. Personally, I take God at His word. Our limited understanding does not mean that the Bible is incorrect. From time to time, science catches up to God.

Simple physics: for the water to be forced up, it must be displaced by something.

 

[Halbhh]

Dr Brown is a Christian who has been researching creation and Noah's flood for decades. As you would expect, he is ridiculed by evolutionists and praised by his supporters. I found his book, "In the Beginning" fascinating reading. Some aspects of his theories I found hard to accept.

One of the difficulties relates to his flood theory. I agree that it was world-wide, but he also had an aspect of his theory that requires vast amounts of underground water. This is called "fountains of the deep" in the Bible. Some sceptics have claimed that there was just not enough water to cover the earth. Or is there? Recently, vast amounts of water have been discovered underground. It's been known for a long time that there is water stored in the earth's crust and in aquifers. According to Nature and phys.org,

"A staggering store of water is revealed in Earth’s crust (Nature). Scientists at the University of Saskatchewan used modeling techniques to estimate the amount of groundwater contained in pore spaces of sedimentary rock. Their surprising conclusion “estimated that the uppermost 10 kilometres of Earth’s crust holds nearly 44 million cubic kilometres of water.” Phys.org headlines the fact that such a volume “makes groundwater, not ice sheets, the largest reservoir on land.” It also doubles previous estimates of water stored in the earth’s crust."

I don't expect any sceptic to have a change of mind because of this new information. It may help Christians to overcome doubts about the flood. Personally, I take God at His word. Our limited understanding does not mean that the Bible is incorrect. From time to time, science catches up to God.

One of the problems that can happen for some with a too-narrowly-focused-on-physical-aspects-of-events reading of the bible is that a person can of course be caught up in little details that aren't really important -- example: it would not matter just how deep the flood waters were, and whether they covered Everest, etc. that was very far away (too distant) from Noah's area...

So, one can be caught up in those little details...and then a very real danger is they can miss the crucial messages that really are important....

Those really important messages in scripture that are not at all ever about mere physical side details like how many years passed, etc.

To get those real messages of scripture, you have to forget the useless debates about the Flood, the age of the Earth, and so on -- things that do not matter. And instead actually listen to the Words of scripture, so that you get the real messages given for us.

That's the problem I have with YEC and others that tempt us to misfocus onto the wrong things.

 

[Job 33:6]

YECs have to dig deep into their crypt of dead ideas every now and again to keep people on their toes.

Love it.

 

[Halbhh]

I'm not worried that much for someone that believes the Earth is a certain young age in particular, if they can tell me the real meanings in Genesis chapter 1, 2-3, and in Genesis chapter 6, so that I can see they are getting the key, important things, instead of just the side topic stuff people argue over.

 

[d taylor]

Christians who do not believe God's creation described in the Bible will always have doubts about events like the flood, Genesis 1, Joshua 10, God's promise to Hezekiah, etc...

To solve this The Bible becomes a metaphor/spiritual account, that is not really meant to give any accurate history of life or God's creation.

That way they can worship mans science and still say i believe God.

 

[Halbhh]

Christians who do not believe God's creation described in the Bible will always have doubts about events like the flood, Genesis 1, Joshua 10, God's promise to Hezekiah, etc...

To solve this The Bible becomes a metaphor/spiritual account, that is not really meant to give any accurate history of life or God's creation.

That way they can worship mans science and still say i believe God.

As I say it -- "If you really believe, then put aside doctrines and truly listen with all of your heart, with a true openness to hear what the Word will convey == so that you stop talking and start listening == and then you get so much more than anyone that only reads to support a preferred doctrine."

Then instead of worrying or debating about the (unimportant) triviality of precisely how deep the water of the Flood was at what location (etc.), we begin to hear the real messages -- the ones that matter -- such as what is the situation before the Flood...

 

[miamited]

Simple physics: for the water to be forced up, it must be displaced by something.

Hi MQ,

Oh, I don't know. The God I serve has the same power to 'pull' the water up out of the earth and leave the vast caverns in which it was once held completely empty. About the same power as it took Him to separate that great big sea. Or the power to stop the sun. Or the power to create within the womb of a woman who had never had sexual relations, a growing embryo.

Simple physics is a limitation of man...not of God.

God bless,
Ted

 

[d taylor]

As I say it -- "If you really believe, then put aside doctrines and truly listen with all of your heart, with a true openness to hear what the Word will convey == so that you stop talking and start listening == and then you get so much more than anyone that only reads to support a preferred doctrine."

Then instead of worrying or debating about the (unimportant) triviality of precisely how deep the water of the Flood was at what location (etc.), we begin to hear the real messages -- the ones that matter -- such as what is the situation before the Flood...

I am curious, what are these so called real messages that that you have been so fortunate to have.

 

[Halbhh]

I am curious, what are these so called real messages that that you have been so fortunate to have.

Read Genesis chapter 6, the part just before the Flood, really listening, and I think you'll get something profound there. A huge thing really, about us, humans, and Good, and God.

 

[Halbhh]

Hi MQ,

Oh, I don't know. The God I serve has the same power to 'pull' the water up out of the earth and leave the vast caverns in which it was once held completely empty. About the same power as it took Him to separate that great big sea. Or the power to stop the sun. Or the power to create within the womb of a woman who had never had sexual relations, a growing embryo.

Simple physics is a limitation of man...not of God.

God bless,
Ted

Good post! God can do the 'impossible'.

The deeper and important meaning in the account of course isn't how deep the water was where or other things people argue over to no gain (or worse, in an uncivil way), but the profound meaning in chapter 6, verses 5-11.

I wonder how many really listen to the words.

 

[Halbhh]

@d taylor , I believe in all the miraculous things God has done we read in Scripture. Including every last thing in the Book of Genesis.

 

[Aussie Pete]

One of the problems that can happen for some with a too-narrowly-focused-on-physical-aspects-of-events reading of the bible is that a person can of course be caught up in little details that aren't really important -- example: it would not matter just how deep the flood waters were, and whether they covered Everest, etc. that was very far away (too distant) from Noah's area...

So, one can be caught up in those little details...and then a very real danger is they can miss the crucial messages that really are important....

Those really important messages in scripture that are not at all ever about mere physical side details like how many years passed, etc.

To get those real messages of scripture, you have to forget the useless debates about the Flood, the age of the Earth, and so on -- things that do not matter. And instead actually listen to the Words of scripture, so that you get the real messages given for us.

That's the problem I have with YEC and others that tempt us to misfocus onto the wrong things.

I agree to a point. However, not all Christians are rock solid in their faith. They can be troubled by the world casting doubt on God's word. Satan's first attack was on the integrity of God and His word. (Genesis 3:1). Satan did the same to the Lord Jesus, "If you be the Son of God....."

Walt Brown gives the glory to God as the Creator. I've had discussions with Christians who have more faith in secular science than in God's word. God's glory is revealed in His creation. He speaks through it, it is His initial witness to all humanity. I see no harm in studying nature as long as it is in the context that God created it.

At the same time, I am not wedded to YEC or pre Adamic creation theories. I prefer the gap theory, but I'm not going to get into a fight over it.

 

[Halbhh]

I agree to a point. However, not all Christians are rock solid in their faith. They can be troubled by the world casting doubt on God's word. Satan's first attack was on the integrity of God and His word. (Genesis 3:1). Satan did the same to the Lord Jesus, "If you be the Son of God....."

Walt Brown gives the glory to God as the Creator. I've had discussions with Christians who have more faith in secular science than in God's word. God's glory is revealed in His creation. He speaks through it, it is His initial witness to all humanity. I see no harm in studying nature as long as it is in the context that God created it.

At the same time, I am not wedded to YEC or pre Adamic creation theories. I prefer the gap theory, but I'm not going to get into a fight over it.

We read that God created all that is, everything. And the 'everything' part we learn in the Gospel of John:

John 1:3 Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.

Which clinches into 100% certainty that not only were the listed things in Genesis chapter 1 specifically made, but more than just the things in this listing. All things. So, Uranium, or you name it.

But nowhere in scripture is the trivial detail of the actual age of the Earth given.

There's a good reason, or more than 1, for that fact.

Here's one of the good reasons: because it's not actually important precisely how many years old. That's one of the reasons it is not anywhere in the Bible.

Not anywhere.

So, when an unknown amount of time passes in the very first verse before the moment that happens in the 2nd verse:

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters....

We aren't told how much time passes before the moment in verse 2 (and it could be a vast time like a billion years of Earth existing before this moment the Spirit hovers over the waters) -- because the amount of time is not important for us to know. Not on the level of true importance like scripture has.

Consider: time doesn't affect God. He is truly everlasting/eternal. Time is not His master.

To us, in mortal dust bodies, time seems important.....

But to God? No, time is not a master over Him.

 

[Aussie Pete]

We read that God created all that is, everything. And the 'everything' part we learn in the Gospel of John:

John 1:3 Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.

Which clinches into 100% certainty that not only were the listed things in Genesis chapter 1 specifically made, but more than just the things in this listing. All things. So, Uranium, or you name it.

But nowhere in scripture is the trivial detail of the actual age of the Earth given.

There's a good reason, or more than 1, for that fact.

Here's one of the good reasons: because it's not actually important precisely how many years old. That's one of the reasons it is not anywhere in the Bible.

Not anywhere.

So, when an unknown amount of time passes in the very first verse before the moment that happens in the 2nd verse:

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters....

We aren't told how much time passes before the moment in verse 2 (and it could be a vast time like a billion years of Earth existing before this moment the Spirit hovers over the waters) -- because the amount of time is not important for us to know. Not on the level of true importance like scripture has.

Consider: time doesn't affect God. He is truly everlasting/eternal. Time is not His master.

To us, in mortal dust bodies, time seems important.....

But to God? No, time is not a master over Him.

Absolutely. I see God as being outside of time. He knows the end from the beginning. We are bound by time. I'm 70 and increasingly conscious of that. God is not, as you say.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Simple physics: for the water to be forced up, it must be displaced by something.

Sure. Brown has an explanation for that too.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Hi MQ,

Oh, I don't know. The God I serve has the same power to 'pull' the water up out of the earth and leave the vast caverns in which it was once held completely empty. About the same power as it took Him to separate that great big sea. Or the power to stop the sun. Or the power to create within the womb of a woman who had never had sexual relations, a growing embryo.

Simple physics is a limitation of man...not of God.

God bless,
Ted

Agreed, but unless the vast caverns are mere vacuum, air or something went in there.

My tendency is to think a different way, actually two possibilities, equally easy for God. One is to produce water (mere H2O) from other things, or to create it, and the other is a settling and rebuilding of the surface features of the earth. It is also possible that magma expanding burped the water up, and, likewise, cooling receded the water back down.

 

[d taylor]

Water from the deep no brainer, the earth is sitting on water. And water is above the raqia above the earth.

‘You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
-
To Him who laid out the earth above the waters,
For His mercy endures forever;
-
You covered it with the deep as with a garment;
The waters stood above the mountains.
At Your rebuke they fled;
At the voice of Your thunder they hastened away.
They went up over the mountains;
They went down into the valleys,
To the place which You founded for them.
You have set a boundary that they may not pass over,
That they may not return to cover the earth.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Agreed, but unless the vast caverns are mere vacuum, air or something went in there.

My tendency is to think a different way, actually two possibilities, equally easy for God. One is to produce water (mere H2O) from other things, or to create it, and the other is a settling and rebuilding of the surface features of the earth. It is also possible that magma expanding burped the water up, and, likewise, cooling receded the water back down.

It's a fascinating subject (to me, anyway). One theory is that mountains were much lower prior to the flood. The pressure of the water collapsed the sea bed, forming massive depressions that drained the water away. There are places where you could drop Mount Everest and it would submerge completely. The Bible also refers to the "Fountains of the deep". It seems that huge amounts of water were released to add to the water vapour in the atmosphere. If mountains were of limited height, there would be enough to cover the whole earth.

 

[miamited]

Agreed, but unless the vast caverns are mere vacuum, air or something went in there.

My tendency is to think a different way, actually two possibilities, equally easy for God. One is to produce water (mere H2O) from other things, or to create it, and the other is a settling and rebuilding of the surface features of the earth. It is also possible that magma expanding burped the water up, and, likewise, cooling receded the water back down.

Hi MQ,

All very good hypothesis. However, if there's a scientific explanation for what happened, then by definition, it wouldn't be a miracle now would it? If there's a scientific explanation for how Mary wound up carrying a child, yet not having had any sexual relations with a man, that wouldn't be a miracle either. I'm just not sure you're giving God the credit that He rightfully deserves. Just as the creation of this realm from nothing, according to the Scriptures, there's no scientific explanation for any of the 'how' the creation came to be, if there were, then it wouldn't be a miracle. There was no big bang and then space particles coalesced into all the heavenly bodies that we see. First of all the earth likely wouldn't have been the first heavenly body created as the Scriptures of God declare.

Me, I'm satisfied that God did it all. It was a miracle wrought by His mighty hand and there aren't any scientific or natural explanations for any of it. But, I believe God. I know that He did create this realm in which we live in 6 fairly normal days, as relates to the length of the days. I know that He did each of the tasks that He proclaims to have done within the time span of one rotation of the earth once it was created spinning on its axis.

I also know that He did it about 6,000 years ago as He explains to us through the genealogical records from Adam to Noah and then to Abraham and beyond. How do I 'know' that. Because I believe God. There is nothing that is impossible for God and there is no issue with which He need be deceitful or lie to us about. He did it. He explained the time span in which He did it, even repeating it twice to His people in the wilderness. Once we understand and believe that, the 6,000 year age of the creation is a pretty simple mathematical calculation.

However, it does require that we stand against the teachings of the great scientific minds of our time as regards the age of the creation. But surely anyone can see that they've got it all wrong in every piece. The scientific explanation starts off with the stars being older than the earth. That the earth coalesced at some point after the stars came to exist. The scientific explanation then goes on to tell us that all that is, was actually created from some previously existing matter, even though they've made up this fairy tale that it's some infinitely infinitesimal spec of some special matter. None of that fits with the account that God has given us through His people. The people that Paul writes to us were entrusted with the very oracles of God.

God raised up Israel for a couple of specific purposes. One was to record His revelation to us as to who He is and all that He has done that we might have the life that we live and all that is necessary to sustain it. The second was that they were to slaughter the Lamb of God to bring salvation even unto the ends of the earth. They were God's people raised up since the days of Abraham to do the things that they did.

God bless,
Ted