Doubting Believer

[selfinflikted]

I think a better question would be " if God is real then who are you to question someone who can create you? " Obviously he would have reasoning beyond your current understanding of what he does and why.

This is a logical question even if you don't believe there is a God.

It's the same as telling a guy from India that his grammar is bad and you don't even know his language. Sounds silly right?

Analogy fail because I can learn other languages and gain the correct perspective.

And, even if god is real, why am I not allowed to question his actions? What sense does that make?

 

[cosmicdust]

Last I checked, the bank won't beat me so hard that I could potentially die in a few days, and when I don't, they've done nothing wrong.

Did you not read the words of Christ? "love thy neighbor" or the old testament commandment "thou shalt not steal". Taking a person by force is kidnapping, thus stealing, so where does the bible say forcing people into slavery is legal?

As i said before, one scripture can't be used to define an idea in the bible. Beating people who owed a debt is not supported either because of the "law of love" love your neighbor as yourself. And also the commandment do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Have you heard these words before?

 

[cosmicdust]

Analogy fail because I can learn other languages and gain the correct perspective.

And, even if god is real, why am I not allowed to question his actions? What sense does that make?

In all they getting, get an understanding is also a scripture. If you don't understand why God did something then why are you now saying you already have the correct perspective? You seem to be bent on making God the villian.

I'm simply saying that if you don't know all the circumstances surrounding Gods creating people then you can't assume to know enough to judge him. I'm also saying that if a being knows enough to create a universe then you can not assume to have equal knowledge on why he started things a certain way.

It's also known that a native speaker of another language will be superior to someone who is not native at getting perspectives.

 

[selfinflikted]

Did you not read the words of Christ? "love thy neighbor" or the old testament commandment "thou shalt not steal". Taking a person by force is kidnapping, thus stealing, so where does the bible say forcing people into slavery is legal?

As i said before, one scripture can't be used to define an idea in the bible. Beating people who owed a debt is not supported either because of the "law of love" love your neighbor as yourself. And also the commandment do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Have you heard these words before?

Yes I have, and they are in direct conflict with the rules god laid out for slavery in the OT.

 

[selfinflikted]

In all they getting, get an understanding is also a scripture. If you don't understand why God did something then why are you now saying you already have the correct perspective?

I don't understand your question. I said it's possible for me to learn another language to gain the correct perspective on what is or isn't correct grammar. It is, according to most Christians, impossible to gain the perspective required to understand god and his actions. To which I ask, then, why can I not question the actions of an alleged deity especially since I cannot understand why he does what he does?

 

[cosmicdust]

Yes I have, and they are in direct conflict with the rules god laid out for slavery in the OT.

And which rules are those, please enlighten me?

 

[selfinflikted]

And which rules are those, please enlighten me?

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. Exodus 21:2 thru 6

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. Exodus 21:7 thru 11

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. Exodus 21:20 thru 21

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. Ephesians 6:5

Just to name a few.

 

[cosmicdust]

I don't understand your question. I said it's possible for me to learn another language to gain the correct perspective on what is or isn't correct grammar. It is, according to most Christians, impossible to gain the perspective required to understand god and his actions. To which I ask, then, why can I not question the actions of an alleged deity especially since I cannot understand why he does what he does?

The scripture I quote tells me that God wants us to understand him better. So when some says that the bible is a fallacy because they don't understand why God did something, it rings as disingenuous to me.

You do know that God still talks to people and still answers prayer right? If you have never had a supernatural encounter with God then it becomes very easy to lose faith. But people can actually see a miracle and still deny it's spiritual value.

I have named about 6 scriptures which deny that God favors the type of slavery in the history of America, yet you still claim there are other "laws" that say this cruel type of violent slavery is lawful according to God.

Give me scriptures and then we can compare and rightly divide.

 

[cosmicdust]

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. Exodus 21:2 thru 6

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. Exodus 21:7 thru 11

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. Exodus 21:20 thru 21

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. Ephesians 6:5

Just to name a few.

Very well.. notice that every scripture you have posted has to do with contracts and/or there is a set time to be freed. This confirms my conclusion that slavery during that time was based on debt payment.

It also speaks about the violence towards slaves. According to the scriptures you posted, a slave could not be permanently damaged or it would mean automatic freedom.

So here we have premise or evidence in your own scriptures that slaves were not to be treated as pre-civil war american slaves were treated.

Also slaves should be freed after a certain time. This also goes against pre civil war slavery. In fact everything you have posted here confirms what I have said. Slavery in the bible is not the same as american pre civil war slavery, where men and women were just stolen from their homelands and forced into slavery.

 

[selfinflikted]

Did you even read the passages? Who said anything about "pre-Civil War" slavery? I sure didn't.

IF you think that slavery, as defined in the Bible, is ok then I could not disagree more and my feelings of moral superiority are confirmed.

In those passages we have examples of total ownership, as that of property, of one (or more) individual(s) by another individual(s) and we also have examples that it is OK to beat a slave to death with no fear of repercussion. This is NOT ok.

 

[Desk trauma]

Also slaves should be freed after a certain time. This also goes against pre civil war slavery. In fact everything you have posted here confirms what I have said. Slavery in the bible is not the same as american pre civil war slavery, where men and women were just stolen from their homelands and forced into slavery.

Actually the atlantic slave trade would work well with the regulations set forth in Leviticus 25:44-46

44 Both thy bondmen and thy bondmaids, whom thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen who are round about you. From them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
45 Moreover of the children of the strangers who sojourn among you, from them shall ye buy and from their families who are with you, whom they begot in your land; and they shall be your possession.
46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession. They shall be your bondmen for ever. But over your brethren, the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigor.

 

[selfinflikted]

Thanks for blowing my Ace in the hole, Desk

 

[Desk trauma]

Thanks for blowing my Ace in the hole, Desk

I live to displease.

 

[selfinflikted]

I live to displease.

 

[BL2KTN]

Enter doubt.

 

[revrobor]

Why would descendants of Adam and Eve have to suffer consequences for something that only Adam and Eve did? Further, why would god create a system in which he inflicts the disease AND administers the cure? Wouldn't it have been more efficient just to not inflict the disease in the first place?

You are mistaken when you attribute diseases to God. Sickness and death are in the world because of sin. Satan has temporary control of this Earth. Read Rev. 20 & 21. You will see what happens to sin and death and the Believers. It was a law of God that the sins of the fathers would be visited upon the sons. But then God sent Jesus to Earth to pay the price for those sins and individual sins of those who choose to accept Jesus as Savior.

 

[selfinflikted]

You are mistaken when you attribute diseases to God. Sickness and death are in the world because of sin. Satan has temporary control of this Earth. Read Rev. 20 & 21. You will see what happens to sin and death and the Believers. It was a law of God that the sins of the fathers would be visited upon the sons. But then God sent Jesus to Earth to pay the price for those sins and individual sins of those who choose to accept Jesus as Savior.

Anyone else hear that faint "whooshing" sound?

 

[Desk trauma]

Not so faint really.

 

[dlamberth]

Satan has temporary control of this Earth.

I don't believe that in the Christian world Satan is given power to create. That would include diseases, viruses and such.

.

 

[ananda]

I'm starting to wonder about what the Bible says.

I think that, if something was actually communicated by the transcendent, omniscient God, he would have:

1. made his scriptures universally relevant to all peoples of all cultures of all eras, equally;
2. communicated his intentions and message clearly and succinctly using a precise language that leaves no room for misinterpretation;
3. made a way for all true seekers to find him directly, without the supposed "need" for other men or women as intercessors;
4. returned regularly to return clarity to his holographic message - not via prophets (creating a separate caste of men), but via avatars (incarnations of God himself);
5. out of love and compassion, and considering mankind's apparently mortal and limited natures, gives us countless chances to "get it right";
6. is so filled with loving-kindness and compassion that he would allow us to only suffer consequences proportionate to our personal unskillful action while yet allowing progressively expansive potential open to us as a result of skillful action; i.e. he could and would not resort to threats of eternal, unlimited damnation and suffering for inherently limited men and women; basically, a limited downside and an unlimited upside;
7. if his message is complex, then provide a clear way for men and women to progressively explore higher "levels" of his revelation and to verify and experience these revelations for themselves; this also promotes a growth of faith and trust in his message.

I didn't find this in Christianity, so I left, even after being in it for some 30 years.