• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Doubting Believer

revrobor

Veteran
Jun 24, 2003
3,993
367
93
Checotah, OK
Visit site
✟28,505.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Yes, precisely what I said. :thumbsup: I just disagree that anything you said in the prior post is "fact." Facts describe reality, reality is demonstrable. No one can demonstrate their god claims to be true. Surely you can understand why some people find it hard to believe.



Muslims would say the exact same thing. Hindus would, as well. All of you cannot be right, but you can all be wrong.



1) I don't refuse to accept what you're saying. I have a certain degree of honesty with regards to myself, and being honest, even if I wanted to accept what you say, I could not. Not without evidence. Belief cannot be achieved through will, but rather are a result of being convinced.

2) Please stop threatening non-believers like this. It's rude, makes you look bad, and comes across as completely hollow because believers have been predicting end times for the last 2,000 years. /yawn

You need to stop comparing religions. Religions offer nothing. Look to God. It's not my intention to be rude in sharing the truth. It's out of love that I share this truth.
 
Upvote 0

revrobor

Veteran
Jun 24, 2003
3,993
367
93
Checotah, OK
Visit site
✟28,505.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Oddly enough - loving, judgemental - each one a human quality, which you claim god does not possess.

You must have a need to argue. God is love. That's where man gets the trait. He is also judgmental when He has to be. God hates sin. He is saddened by those who refuse to accept His gift of salvation. He does not want to condemn anyone to Hell but will and is sad when he has to. He does because He is a just God.
 
Upvote 0

selfinflikted

Under Deck
Jul 13, 2006
11,441
786
46
✟39,014.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
You need to stop comparing religions. Religions offer nothing. Look to God. It's not my intention to be rude in sharing the truth. It's out of love that I share this truth.

Sorry to compare. But, each religion claims theirs is the One True God™ so what else am I to do? Why should I believe your story over theirs? Each of you have the same amount of convincing rhetoric and evidence, which is to say, none at all.

I am incredulous about claims of love in this instance. You are trying to scare unbelievers into accepting your claims.
 
Upvote 0

BL2KTN

Scholar, Author, Educator
Oct 22, 2010
2,109
83
Tennessee, United States
✟25,644.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Libertarian
Revrobor said:
This is not a thread about describing God and I've never personally been concerned about that. I've never done any research on the subject. I can, however describe His nature. He is loving and charitable and wants you and all mankind to be saved to spend eternity with Him on the new Earth.

So then all that spiel you gave about men not being able to describe Yahweh because none of them had seen them, and thus the bible used imperfect terminology...

... it's all wrong. Although you made statements as 100% fact, now you've never studied it, never been concerned with it, but you've got new 100% fact statements without any evidence.

So does Yahweh want to save all of mankind?

2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. -- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12

This Yahweh of your's is a trickster it would appear.
 
Upvote 0

revrobor

Veteran
Jun 24, 2003
3,993
367
93
Checotah, OK
Visit site
✟28,505.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
God will not force you to follow Him. You have a free will to do as you like. But you need to know what the consequences are for refusing to follow Him. That's not a Christian teaching. It's a Biblical teaching which is being passed on by the Christian church. As a man made institution the Christian church has added many man made teachings which tend to confuse non-Believers. My suggestion is that you get a modern translation of the Bible and study it for yourself.
 
Upvote 0

selfinflikted

Under Deck
Jul 13, 2006
11,441
786
46
✟39,014.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
You must have a need to argue. God is love. That's where man gets the trait. He is also judgmental when He has to be. God hates sin. He is saddened by those who refuse to accept His gift of salvation. He does not want to condemn anyone to Hell but will and is sad when he has to. He does because He is a just God.

I don't have a need to argue, I'm just bored. And this is the debate forum. :thumbsup:

"A just god." This is interesting to me, because do you consider it just that all of humanity was thrust into a "sin nature" because of an ancient ancestor? Would a judge in a courtroom sentence a murderer's child to death because he is the descendant of the murderer? That's not just. At all.
 
Upvote 0

revrobor

Veteran
Jun 24, 2003
3,993
367
93
Checotah, OK
Visit site
✟28,505.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
So then all that spiel you gave about men not being able to describe Yahweh because none of them had seen them, and thus the bible used imperfect terminology...

... it's all wrong. Although you made statements as 100% fact, now you've never studied it, never been concerned with it, but you've got new 100% fact statements without any evidence.

So does Yahweh want to save all of mankind?

2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. -- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12

This Yahweh of your's is a trickster it would appear.

Paul was talking about people who God knew would harden their hearts against Him. So He had reason to expedite matters. you need to quote verses in context. If you have a need to make fun of God you go right ahead but since you don't appear to be someone who is searching for the truth I will no longer respond to you.
 
Upvote 0

BL2KTN

Scholar, Author, Educator
Oct 22, 2010
2,109
83
Tennessee, United States
✟25,644.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Libertarian
revrobor said:
Paul was talking about people who God knew would harden their hearts against Him. So He had reason to expedite matters. you need to quote verses in context. If you have a need to make fun of God you go right ahead but since you don't appear to be someone who is searching for the truth I will no longer respond to you.

I appreciate your concern. All I ask is that in 10,000 years when humanity can technologically manipulate space and time, and we resurrect you to a created paradise, please say "thank you".
 
Upvote 0

revrobor

Veteran
Jun 24, 2003
3,993
367
93
Checotah, OK
Visit site
✟28,505.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I don't have a need to argue, I'm just bored. And this is the debate forum. :thumbsup:

"A just god." This is interesting to me, because do you consider it just that all of humanity was thrust into a "sin nature" because of an ancient ancestor? Would a judge in a courtroom sentence a murderer's child to death because he is the descendant of the murderer? That's not just. At all.

Adam and Eve were responsible for that when the fell to Satan's trickery. But God, because of His love for mankind and because of His grace, provided a way for man to escape that punishment for the sinful nature of mankind. So neither you nor anyone else has to endure that punishment.
 
Upvote 0

cosmicdust

Member
Apr 10, 2015
9
0
✟15,119.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Engaged
No Christian believes in the entire bible, OT or NT. If they did, they would almost certainly be in jail for stoning someone to death, keeping slaves, or something.

Christians believe in all those parts of the bible that they agree with, but interpret (ignore) the parts they don't agree with.

For instance, how many Christians work on the Sabbath?

There are many christians who fail to "rightly divide or interpret correctly". This is not news since the bible was written in other languages, and anyone who speaks more than one language understands that true meanings can get lost in interpretations. However I can say this:

One scripture washes the other, and before you can assume to know something you must consider all of it's influences. For example the commandment was "remember the sabbath to keep it holy", yet MEN added to this law by saying you can't work. This is the same case we find with Catholics claiming that priests can't be married, when the bible clearly demonstrates that even the Apostles of Christ had wives and were first fishermen by trade.

Can you or anyone else find the scripture saying that holy men of god can't have wives? Thus it's a necessity to consider how people distort and interpret before claiming something is what the bible says or what "Christians believe in general".

As for stoning, that would be considered what we call the "death penalty" today. In today's system we have judges, and they decide which crimes are punishable by death. Some people are against it and some are for it, however my stance is let God decide who lives or dies because of the scripture that says we can not add one hair to a mans head so we have no right to take his life. In simple terms God is saying we don't have the right to destroy something that we do not own and is valuable to him. People are also living souls as spoken in Genesis so we are different from animals or plants.

I make that conclusion because when animals were created they are not called living souls in the bible. They are also called "the creation" in the book of Romans. Only mankind is given the ability to be the "sons of god" as spoken in Romans. No animals are proclaimed to have the ability to accept Christ. So in light of God accepting us through Christ as sons, allows me to deduct that killing a potential son of God can be related to breaking your moms favorite vase. That's a no no even if the vase has been particularly naughty.. lol.

There are many other scriptures, such as when Christ was asked "what is the greatest commandment" he stated 2. Love your neighbor as yourself, and love God with all your heart. If you truly love people you will not desire to see them die, even if they did something horrible. Mothers are a great example of this since they would rather see their child in prison rather than killed. This was the basis for the wisdom of King Solomon when he determined that the true mother of the baby was the one who would rather give her child to the woman who had stolen it rather than see it cut in half.

So you see the bible is not what it seems when looking at only one scripture, you must rightly divide the word and dig deeper to find it's true meanings. You will also find that God simply " allowed certain things to go on " for a time because of the ignorance of man.

I concluded this by what Paul says in the new testament about the church at Corinth: " I can not give you meat, but only milk of the word ", because he knew that the minds and hearts of the people there were not yet able to digest the more complex reasoning's of God.

This is how anyone can maintain faith, you must consider that if things don't add up then you're not getting the full understanding. So then you must endeavor to learn more to get the truth. " in all thy getting, get an understanding " Proverbs 4:7

About Slavery:

I'll be very simple, after all of the law and prophets of the old testament, God himself spoke from heaven with the loud voice on the day Jesus (Yeshua in hebrew) was baptized and said: This is my son in whom I'm well pleased "HEAR HIM !"

And what did Jesus say? Love your neighbor as yourself. Now as we have seen throughout history in secular history books, slavery is not the same consistently. There was a difference between a slave who was forced into slavery through "kidnapping" and a slave who owed a dept and became a servant to repay it. The scripture also states that the debtor is "slave" to the lender. Proverbs 22:7

However regardless of how you interpret the word slave you still have to answer to Christ as your final judge according to his place in glory and heaven. The scripture says that his name is above every other name in heaven or earth, and every knee shall bow and tongue must confess he is Lord. So slavery before the Civil War in america would not fall in line with "love your neighbor, and since those slaves were kidnapped or taken by force, they could not be in debt to their masters then could they?

Scripture: "He that loveth not knoweth not, God is love" 1 John 4:8

Romans 8:14 "For as many as are led by the spirit of God, they are the sons of God."

If you are led by the spirit of God who is love, how could you take a man by force from his family and say that he is your slave. This is kidnapping and a violent act under almost any bill of rights or constitution of any nation, yet people are still questioning (out of ignorance) if God is for or against it.

Kidnapping also falls under the commandment "though shalt not steal" Gotcha !!!

So people who were made slaves by forces and not by rights through debt even in the old testament would still be unlawful under Gods 10 commandments. Every person belongs to some family even if their family is dead or alive. And if you can just steal people then why not add houses, money, cars, and wives to that loaded word "slave"?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

revrobor

Veteran
Jun 24, 2003
3,993
367
93
Checotah, OK
Visit site
✟28,505.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I appreciate your concern. All I ask is that in 10,000 years when humanity can technologically manipulate space and time, and we resurrect you to a created paradise, please say "thank you".

I personally don't believe it will be 10,000 years and science will have nothing to do with it. BTW, I won't need to be resurrected because I won't die. My body will but the real me, my spirit, will never die. And neither will yours. You just need to decide where you are going to spend eternity.
 
Upvote 0

dlamberth

Senior Contributor
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2003
20,158
3,177
Oregon
✟938,421.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Politics
US-Others
Adam and Eve were responsible for that when the fell to Satan's trickery. But God, because of His love for mankind and because of His grace, provided a way for man to escape that punishment for the sinful nature of mankind. So neither you nor anyone else has to endure that punishment.
I just free myself from all of that religious stuff. God is Love. Start with Love and end with Love. And...see the Divine within life itSelf, starting with other Human Beings. No Judgment require.

.
 
Upvote 0

ThinkForYourself

Well-Known Member
Nov 8, 2013
1,785
50
✟2,294.00
Faith
Atheist
There are many christians who fail to "rightly divide or interpret correctly". This is not news since the bible was written in other languages, and anyone who speaks more than one language understands that true meanings can get lost in interpretations.

From what I've seen, every Christian uses the exact same method: The stuff they agree with is literal, the stuff they don't agree with needs interpreting.

About Slavery:

I'll be very simple, after all of the law and prophets of the old testament, God himself spoke from heaven with the loud voice on the day Jesus (Yeshua in hebrew) was baptized and said: This is my son in whom I'm well pleased "HEAR HIM !"

And what did Jesus say? Love your neighbor as yourself. Now as we have seen throughout history in secular history books, slavery is not the same consistently. There was a difference between a slave who was forced into slavery through "kidnapping" and a slave who owed a dept and became a servant to repay it. The scripture also states that the debtor is "slave" to the lender. Proverbs 22:7

Exactly what I was saying. You don't agree with slavery, so you interpret the bible. Somehow your interpretation makes biblical slavery an acceptable form of slavery, as if owning another human being could ever be moral.

If you are going to deny this:
God says you can own slaves in the traditional sense. He says you can buy them from the people around you, but not the Jews. God also says you can beat them to death, so long as they don't die in the first day or two.

This is God speaking. Shouldn't you accept his word, instead of interpreting it? Or do you think God is unable to communicate at the level of a twelve year old?

However regardless of how you interpret the word slave you still have to answer to Christ as your final judge according to his place in glory and heaven. The scripture says that his name is above every other name in heaven or earth, and every knee shall bow and tongue must confess he is Lord. So slavery before the Civil War in america would not fall in line with "love your neighbor, and since those slaves were kidnapped or taken by force, they could not be in debt to their masters then could they?

More interpretation because you know slavery is immoral.

Jesus told slaves to obey their masters, especially the cruel ones. He never said what he should have said, something that nearly everyone in North America knows to say: DO NOT KEEP SLAVES!
 
Upvote 0

BL2KTN

Scholar, Author, Educator
Oct 22, 2010
2,109
83
Tennessee, United States
✟25,644.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Libertarian
Revrobor said:
I personally don't believe it will be 10,000 years and science will have nothing to do with it. BTW, I won't need to be resurrected because I won't die. My body will but the real me, my spirit, will never die. And neither will yours. You just need to decide where you are going to spend eternity.

Well, let's hope my optimism comes true: my expectation sees death defeated and all of humanity saved. Your expectation is a few will be saved while most will be set on fire and tortured by a "loving" Yahweh.
 
Upvote 0

selfinflikted

Under Deck
Jul 13, 2006
11,441
786
46
✟39,014.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
Adam and Eve were responsible for that when the fell to Satan's trickery. But God, because of His love for mankind and because of His grace, provided a way for man to escape that punishment for the sinful nature of mankind. So neither you nor anyone else has to endure that punishment.

Why would descendants of Adam and Eve have to suffer consequences for something that only Adam and Eve did? Further, why would god create a system in which he inflicts the disease AND administers the cure? Wouldn't it have been more efficient just to not inflict the disease in the first place?
 
Upvote 0

cosmicdust

Member
Apr 10, 2015
9
0
✟15,119.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Engaged
From what I've seen, every Christian uses the exact same method: The stuff they agree with is literal, the stuff they don't agree with needs interpreting.



Exactly what I was saying. You don't agree with slavery, so you interpret the bible. Somehow your interpretation makes biblical slavery an acceptable form of slavery, as if owning another human being could ever be moral.

If you are going to deny this:
God says you can own slaves in the traditional sense. He says you can buy them from the people around you, but not the Jews. God also says you can beat them to death, so long as they don't die in the first day or two.

This is God speaking. Shouldn't you accept his word, instead of interpreting it? Or do you think God is unable to communicate at the level of a twelve year old?



More interpretation because you know slavery is immoral.

Jesus told slaves to obey their masters, especially the cruel ones. He never said what he should have said, something that nearly everyone in North America knows to say: DO NOT KEEP SLAVES!

Obviously you didn't read my entire post .. lol If a debtor is slave to the lender then this wouldn't be the same type of slave that you assume would it?

In fact if you owe the bank money right now, you are obligated to work until the debt is paid right? Then you are a slave even by today's standards. If you want to condemn the bible by saying there is only one definition for slavery throughout history then it's you who are being choosy and forcing your opinion upon history.

We should try to be honest, and that is what I endeavor to do especially with what I feel and think about the words in the bible.
 
Upvote 0

cosmicdust

Member
Apr 10, 2015
9
0
✟15,119.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Engaged
Why would descendants of Adam and Eve have to suffer consequences for something that only Adam and Eve did? Further, why would god create a system in which he inflicts the disease AND administers the cure? Wouldn't it have been more efficient just to not inflict the disease in the first place?

I think a better question would be " if God is real then who are you to question someone who can create you? " Obviously he would have reasoning beyond your current understanding of what he does and why.

This is a logical question even if you don't believe there is a God.

It's the same as telling a guy from India that his grammar is bad and you don't even know his language. Sounds silly right?
 
Upvote 0

selfinflikted

Under Deck
Jul 13, 2006
11,441
786
46
✟39,014.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
Obviously you didn't read my entire post .. lol If a debtor is slave to the lender then this wouldn't be the same type of slave that you assume would it?

In fact if you owe the bank money right now, you are obligated to work until the debt is paid right? Then you are a slave even by today's standards. If you want to condemn the bible by saying there is only one definition for slavery throughout history then it's you who are being choosy and forcing your opinion upon history.

We should try to be honest, and that is what I endeavor to do especially with what I feel and think about the words in the bible.

Last I checked, the bank won't beat me so hard that I could potentially die in a few days, and when I don't, they've done nothing wrong.
 
Upvote 0