Doubting Believer

[selfinflikted]

I think that, if something was actually communicated by a transcendent, omniscient God, he would have:

1. made his scriptures universally relevant to all peoples of all cultures equally,
2. communicated his intentions and message clearly and succinctly using a precise language that leaves no room for misinterpretation,
3. returned regularly to return clarity to his message,
4. made way for all true seekers to find him directly, without the supposed "need" for other men or women as intercessors,
5. out of love and compassion, and considering mankind's apparently mortal and limited natures, gives us countless chances to "get it right".

I didn't find this in Christianity, so I left, even after being in it for some 30 years.

Well said.

 

[ananda]

* edited this post into my original post

Oh, and add in:

6. is so filled with loving-kindness and compassion that he would allow us to only suffer consequences proportionate to our personal unskillful action while yet allowing progressively expansive potential open to us as a result of skillful action; i.e. he could and would not resort to threats of eternal, unlimited damnation and suffering for inherently limited men and women; basically, a limited downside and an unlimited upside.
7. if his message is complex, then provide a clear way for men and women to progressively explore higher "levels" of his revelation and to verify and experience these revelations for themselves; this also promotes faith and trust in his message.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7872619-post67333597/#post67333597

 

[ThinkForYourself]

You are mistaken when you attribute diseases to God. Sickness and death are in the world because of sin. Satan has temporary control of this Earth ...

So Satan and God both create stuff?

How can you tell it apart?

 

[ThinkForYourself]

Obviously you didn't read my entire post .. lol If a debtor is slave to the lender then this wouldn't be the same type of slave that you assume would it?

I'm not talking about debtor slave. I'm talking about Mississippi style slavery. They are your property. You own them for good, you can will them to your children, you can beat them to death, you can rape them.

How is that moral or just?

We should try to be honest, and that is what I endeavor to do especially with what I feel and think about the words in the bible.

I agree.

And welcome to the forum.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

I think that, if something was actually communicated by a transcendent, omniscient God, he would have:
...
4. made way for all true seekers to find him directly, without the supposed "need" for other men or women as intercessors,
...

That is a very good point.

 

[revrobor]

I don't believe that in the Christian world Satan is given power to create. That would include diseases, viruses and such.

.

Satan has more power than you give him credit for. He can create and imitate.

 

[revrobor]

So Satan and God both create stuff?

How can you tell it apart?

That is correct. But Satan's powers are limited by God.

 

[revrobor]

I don't believe that in the Christian world Satan is given power to create. That would include diseases, viruses and such.

.

Yes he is. But God limits his powers. Read the story of Job.

 

[dlamberth]

Yes he is. But God limits his powers. Read the story of Job.

So Satan is a tool of God to torture us?

.

 

[revrobor]

So Satan and God both create stuff?

How can you tell it apart?

That's correct. In this age God does not create anything that is harmful to mankind.

 

[revrobor]

So Satan is a tool of God to torture us?

.

No. Satan was given free reign when Adam disobeyed God but his powers are limited by God. In the end Satan will loose. Read Rev 20 &21.

 

[SteveB28]

I'm going to find myself surprisingly in agreement with several of your statements here:

Faith is a fact.

Agreed. It is indeed a fact that many people form their worldview on the basis of faith. Lamentable, but true.

The universe was created.

No. That's an unsupported assertion. You have zero evidence to substantiate such a claim. It is an expression of faith and demonstrates how useless faith is.

God was not.

Agreed. God was certainly not created, except in the minds of the faith-based! We have a rare agreement.

For some reason (perhaps not wanting to answer to a higher power) you refuse to understand that there is a being who has existed forever.

No. Mine is not a position of refusal. It is a position of rejecting claims for which there is no evidential support.

You tell me that your God exists, a Muslim tells me Allah exists, a Hindu tells me a host of deities exist. But the problem is mine because I don't tug my forelock to any or all of them?

I have no "proof".

I strongly agree!

It's a matter of faith. With that I am finished discussing this with you.

Yes I am sure you are.

 

[SteveB28]

You need to stop comparing religions. Religions offer nothing. Look to God. It's not my intention to be rude in sharing the truth. It's out of love that I share this truth.

And a Muslim would say the same as you. Except, he would say that the God we should "look to" is a different one to your own. Religion "offers" him the distinction.

 

[SteveB28]

Adam and Eve were responsible for that when the fell to Satan's trickery. But God, because of His love for mankind and because of His grace, provided a way for man to escape that punishment for the sinful nature of mankind. So neither you nor anyone else has to endure that punishment.

Poppycock. Forebears of mine poisoned the waterholes of the Aboriginal people in my country. I abhor the fact of those actions, but, according to your twisted philosophy, I am somehow tainted by their crimes and should share the responsibility and punishment of their cruelty.

Utter nonsense.

 

[revrobor]

It's your choice and time will tell if you've made the right choice.

 

[dlamberth]

It's your choice and time will tell if you've made the right choice.

My choice has been to free myself from images and beliefs of a Judgmental God who stands at the ready to send us to internal torment. Time has proven it to be a good choice.

.

 

[SteveB28]

It's your choice and time will tell if you've made the right choice.

No, it is not a choice. One cannot make a choice to believe something for which one sees no evidence. I cannot simply 'choose' to suddenly believe that there are fairies in the woods. I cannot 'choose' to believe that the dark side of the moon has gremlins living on it. Beliefs are not a result of choice.

 

[BL2KTN]

No, it is not a choice. One cannot make a choice to believe something for which one sees no evidence. I cannot simply 'choose' to suddenly believe that there are fairies in the woods. I cannot 'choose' to believe that the dark side of the moon has gremlins living on it. Beliefs are not a result of choice.

.

 

[revrobor]

My choice has been to free myself from images and beliefs of a Judgmental God who stands at the ready to send us to internal torment. Time has proven it to be a good choice.

.

But time is not over yet. One day soon it will be then it will be too late

 

[SteveB28]

But time is not over yet. One day soon it will be then it will be too late

I see that you and I are contemporaries. For all of our lives the "end is nigh" crowd have been endlessly droning on about the earth coming to its end. "One day soon" is beginning to lose its gloss, don't you think?