Double predestination.

[heymikey80]

From what I understand, the reason God hardened their hearts is because they hardened theirs first when they became vessels of dishonor.

Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? Rom 9:21

 

[brvhrt]

God tells Moses that He will harden Pharaoh's heart BEFORE Moses even gets to Egypt.

Ex. 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

God said he would harden Pharaoh’s heart, but, it was because God knew Pharaoh’s heart would be hardened by his rejecting God. It is a contradiction of God’s nature to harden a heart; when God’s desire is to draw all men. Pharaoh hardened his own heart several times in the bible before God hardened Pharaohs heart with the revelation of miracles that could only have been done by God. God hardened Pharaoh’s heart by his repetitious attempts to reason with Pharaoh. It’s not God’s will that any perish. Did God choose Pharaoh to perish? Did Pharaoh ever have a chance of salvation? God says not to provoke your children to wrath, did God provoke? God will not allow our temptation to become more than we can bear. Did God allow Pharaoh to be tempted more than he could bear? God cannot be tempted, neither has he tempted any man, did God tempt Pharaoh? Satan may have wanted pharaoh to fulfill his plan. But I believe God would have also given him grace sufficient for any temptation greater than he could bear. God also had a plan for pharaoh. Choose you this day whom you will serve, I give you this day life and death. God’s plan for anyone is that of good. For God will not allow you to be tempted more than you can bear, neither does he tempt any man, but! Man is tempted “when he is drawn away of his own lusts” God draws and compels men to repent. There is no respect of persons with God. Pharaoh spurned every attempt of God, and rebelled. On top of all this, miracles were involved. The blind man said, “If he were not of God, he could do nothing.” Miracles were the mighty hand of God, so the fight wasn’t with Moses any longer, it was a challenge against the creator. The Lord is not to be blamed! The Lord has never wronged anyone, for he is love, and he is faithful. Pharaoh gave in, rebelled, and set himself against God, and was out to destroy his children. God raised up Pharoah, after! Pharoah raised himself up against God. The die was cast! God didn’t reject Pharaoh, Pharaoh rejected God!

 

[heymikey80]

"Without Me ye can do nothing."
Isn't that referring to a person not being able to bear fruit unless he is in Christ? But it doesn't seem to say that we can't turn, choose, obey, seek, or repent.

Hm. Jesus isn't talking to a Christian.

 

[brvhrt]

OOPS! Sorry, I was trying to do something nobodysfool suggested, lol.

 

[brvhrt]

Originally Posted by brvhrt

"Without Me ye can do nothing."
Isn't that referring to a person not being able to bear fruit unless he is in Christ? But it doesn't seem to say that we can't turn, choose, obey, seek, or repent.
​

That applies to everything. What can you do without Jesus?
__________________

Now how can I argue with that, lol?

 

[brvhrt]

Nobodysfool: I was trying to do that microsoft word thangy you suggested, and I think I sent it to someones post with large font, lol. I wasnt yelling, it was a typo, lol.

 

[brvhrt]

Hm. Jesus isn't talking to a Christian.

Those that look forward to Christ bear fruit in the same way. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. The only difference now was, the Jews had to believe that Jesus was the Christ. And they could no longer bear fruit as Jews if they rejected him.

 

[heymikey80]

Hm. Jesus isn't talking to a Christian.

Those that look forward to Christ bear fruit in the same way. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. The only difference now was, the Jews had to believe that Jesus was the Christ. And they could no longer bear fruit as Jews if they rejected him.

But -- you realize, once the verse is not limited to Christian fruit-bearing, nobdysfool's point about it being more general is applicable.

So we're agreed that no, Jesus isn't talking about Christian fruit-bearing per se.

And nobdysfool's point comes up again.

 

[Deniece]

God tells Moses that He will harden Pharaoh's heart BEFORE Moses even gets to Egypt.

Ex. 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

God said he would harden Pharaoh’s heart, but, it was because God knew Pharaoh’s heart would be hardened by his rejecting God.!

But the verse says, "I will harden his heart SO THAT he will not let the people go."
Isn't that a statement of intent or purpose?

 

[nobdysfool]

But -- you realize, once the verse is not limited to Christian fruit-bearing, nobdysfool's point about it being more general is applicable.

So we're agreed that no, Jesus isn't talking about Christian fruit-bearing per se.

And nobdysfool's point comes up again.

Let's pick it apart a little. Jesus said, "Without Me, ye can do nothing". The mirror-image of that would be, "With Me, ye can do anything," which fits with His statements about faith as a mustard seed moving mountains, and "nothing will be impossible to you." Ignoring for now the whole subject of faith being spoken of there (we can come back to it), Jesus made a truly remarkable statement of how things really are, not how they appear to be. Elsewhere in the scriptures it says that "all things are held together by the word of His Power", and "in Him we live and move and have our being".

Does that pertain only to Christians? No moreso than my original point, that without Christ, we can do nothing. Even if He were specifically referring to His own, it still has wider application, because of the other statements I have pointed out. Jesus is giving us clues about how things really are, opening our eyes to see past how things appear to be. Since God through Christ created all that is, the very existence of all that is depends on and is upheld by Him. It does not have separate existence from God.

Think on that a while. It will change your life....it will certainly change the way you view what is thought to be "reality".

 

[Jpark]

Therefore to say that God predestines one to damnation would be declaring that God positively intervenes in that one's life as so to damn him. This would suggest that God influences man to sin and causes man to sin, which is contrary to what scripture claims.

Not necessarily. God's intervention results in the opposite: condemnation is erased and salvation is granted.

While God can intervene in predetermined instances anytime, He does not mold the person's life to make it result in his damnation.

In other words, He has no involvement in predetermination. What happens to a person who is predetermined to go to hell was already determined, decreed by God.

 

[Anoetos]

To piggyback on Jpark's remarks: we are all sinners, we do not need God to specially intervene in order to be damned.

But we do need Him to specially intervene in order for us to be saved.

 

[student ad x]

Right, old and new........... "The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God.
Psa 14:3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one." Psalm 15 53...Romans 3