Heb 4:15

[SabbathBlessings]

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

What does it mean to be tempted as we are? Does it mean only to be hungry and weak, or is this also about being tempted by sin, why it says "yet without sin"

So if Jesus was tempted as we are, how are we tempted? Can we sin if we are tempted? In another thread people are claiming either Jesus was not tempted as we are or we when we are tempted we cannot sin, which I have yet to find a verse to support this.

If Jesus could not be tempted by sin and fail then how can He be our example of overcoming sin.

1 Peter 2: 21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:

22 “Who committed no sin,
Nor was deceit found in His mouth”;

Because Jesus overcame sin, in His human nature- tempted as we are- is why He is our Savior from sin, Mat1:21 and why we can follow in His steps and overcome just as He did.

We can only do this by overcoming as Jesus did with godly fear- no wonder why this is the everlasting gospel Rev14:6-12

Heb 5:7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear,

The Fear of the LORD

I have been studying threads that are all throughout the entire Bible and referenced one on being a servant of God -how that is a consistent theme throughout the bible. The Servant of God: One Thread from Genesis to Revelation Here is another one on the Fear of God. The fear of God is woven...

www.christianforums.com

 

[reddogs]

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

What does it mean to be tempted as we are? Does it mean only to be hungry and weak, or is this also about being tempted by sin, why it says "yet without sin"

So if Jesus was tempted as we are, how are we tempted? Can we sin if we are tempted? In another thread people are claiming either Jesus was not tempted as we are or we when we are tempted we cannot sin, which I have yet to find a verse to support this.

If Jesus could not be tempted by sin and fail then how can He be our example of overcoming sin.

1 Peter 2: 21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:

22 “Who committed no sin,
Nor was deceit found in His mouth”;

Because Jesus overcame sin- is why He is our Savior from sin, Mat1:21 and why we can follow in His steps and overcome just as He did.

We can only do this by overcoming as Jesus did with godly fear.

Heb 5:7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear,

The Fear of the LORD

I have been studying threads that are all throughout the entire Bible and referenced one on being a servant of God -how that is a consistent theme throughout the bible. The Servant of God: One Thread from Genesis to Revelation Here is another one on the Fear of God. The fear of God is woven...

www.christianforums.com

Very true my brother, but would offer that need to change it to fit under the heading Denomination Specific Theology, maybe "Jesus was tempted as we are"

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Very true my brother, but would offer that need to change it to fit under the heading Denomination Specific Theology, maybe "Jesus was tempted as we are"

I don't think I can edit the title after its posted, by the way I am a sister

I will see if a mod can do so. Thanks.

 

[reddogs]

I don't think I can edit the title after its posted, by the way I am a sister

I will see if a mod can do so. Thanks.

Oh, how many times must I make this mistake of assumption....... Has to be in my DNA...

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Oh, how many times must I make this mistake of assumption....... Has to be in my DNA...

Its okay, we are all one in Christ!

 

[The Liturgist]

So if Jesus was tempted as we are, how are we tempted? Can we sin if we are tempted? In another thread people are claiming either Jesus was not tempted as we are or we when we are tempted we cannot sin, which I have yet to find a verse to support this.

That’s not an accurate characterization of our argument, which is rather that Jesus Christ could not have succumbed to temptation, because He is God and because scripture states plainly in Isaiah that God would not fail.

You see, in His incarnation, Scripture states that Christ put on our humanity, but it also states that He remained God after His incarnation, one with the Father.

As such, because of that fact, while he could be made to suffer temptation as a human, there was no actual risk that he would succumb to that temptation, because of the fact that He remained fully God and fully Man in one person and one hypostasis, without change, confusion, separation or division. The hypostatic unity of Christ, which is also a Scriptural doctrine, is particularly essential, since without it, we can’t say that God became man, and thus Jesus Christ is not Emanuel, God With Us.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

That’s not an accurate characterization of our argument, which is rather that Jesus Christ could not have succumbed to temptation, because He is God and because scripture states plainly in Isaiah that God would not fail.

So then how can He be tempted AS WE ARE? Can we not sin when we are tempted? Can you prove this from Scripture.

You can disagree with the argument but it hasn't changed that not one per has addressed this point, they speak over it as if the Text doesn't say this. Just because the Scripture tells us the ending, doesn't mean the journey didn't happen and what it entailed. God tells us the ending of His Second Coming and what will happen, He knows who is saved, who is lost, doesn't make our journey any less meaningful and our decisions any less serious.

Please do not take this thread off topic. Address what the Text says how Jesus was tempted as WE ARE, which means He was tempted in His human nature, why what He overcame was so remarkable and can be our Savior from sin and our example to follow.

 

[The Liturgist]

So then how can He be tempted AS WE ARE? Can we not sin when we are tempted? Can you prove this from Scripture.

Yes. Scripture says He was tempted, but it also asserts in Isaiah that He would prevail, and Christ attests that He is One with the Father, and the Gospel of John declares Him to be God.

Address what the Text says how Jesus was tempted as WE ARE, which means He was tempted in His human nature,

Indeed, He was tempted in his human nature, but He could not have succumbed to that temptation to the unity of His humanity with His deity.

There is no scripture indicating that Christ was at any time at risk of succumbing to temptation.

I would further stress that the Pauline epistles are clear that by putting on Christ and receiving the Holy Spirit, we ourselves can develop spiritually and be able to resist temptation through the unity with God, or Theosis (which Wesley translated as entire sanctification) which is possible through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

But as Christians who have attained such a state of Theosis like St. Anthony the Great attested, temptation remained a trial, and unlike Christ, we are at risk of and sometimes fail, because unlike Him we are imperfect whereas Christ in uniting our flawed humanity with His deity caused the latter to become perfected and remade us in His image as foretold in Genesis chapter 1 (it is for this reason that upon seeing Him in his Passion that Pontius Pilate declared “Behold the man” and that Christ’s final words were “It is finished”, and also for this reason that unlike every other creative act Christ undertook with the Father and the Holy Spirit in Genesis 1.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yes. Scripture says He was tempted, but it also asserts in Isaiah that He would prevail, and Christ attests that He is One with the Father, and the Gospel of John declares Him to be God.

Not the argument.

Indeed, He was tempted in his human nature, but He could not have succumbed to that temptation to the unity of His humanity with His deity.

So you are saying, He being tempted AS WE ARE that we cannot sin when we are tempted- you will need to prove this from Scripture otherwise He was not tempted AS WE ARE and thats in contradiction to the Scripture.

I can see why everyone keeps trying to side step this passage and not directly address it. Saying He cannot sin because He is God is not addressing what the Scripture says, He being tempted as WE ARE- so once again back to where I started ...

if Jesus was tempted as we are, how are we tempted? Can we sin if we are tempted? In another thread people are claiming either Jesus was not tempted as we are or we when we are tempted we cannot sin, which I have yet to find a verse to support this.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Jesus would not fail, and He didn't. But look at why. Isa 42:6 "I will hold Your hand; I will keep You."

God kept Him. You only need keeping when there's a real danger. If Jesus couldn't have fallen, then "I will keep You" doesn't mean much.

That's the whole point of "tempted as we are, yet without sin". AS WE ARE means His temptation was the same kind as ours. If it wasn't real, then it wasn't "as we are," and He couldn't truly feel for us the way that verse says He does.

He was tempted just like us. He could have given in — that's what made it a real fight. But He didn't. That's not a small thing. That's the magnitude of it. If it was impossible for Him to fall, there was nothing to overcome. But because it was real, His victory is real.


Why Ellen White said: "He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity." (The SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5, p. 1128)

So there was no risk that God's plan would fail - God kept Him. But the temptation was real, the struggle was real, and that's exactly why "It is finished" is a victory and not just a meaningless announcement.

God can keep us too, but we need goodly fear, just like Jesus had Heb5:7, and not fear of God that comes through the traditions of man. Isa 29:13 Mat15:3-14

 

[The Liturgist]

So you are saying, He being tempted AS WE ARE that we cannot sin when we are tempted

No, that would be a strawman fallacy on your part, nowhere did I say that humans cannot sin when tempted. But Christ is fully God and fully man, uniting both without change, confusion, separation or division. The issue is Christological and Theological and not one of hamartiology. I am saying that Christ cannot succumb to temptation because He is God, in the person of the Incarnate Son and Word of God, and Sacred Scripture attests that God will be successful. Thus it was the case that the devil was wasting his time, as Christ our True God intended, creating a prototype like with His baptism whereby those who put on Christ through Baptism and receive the Holy Spirit are able to develop the ability through the process of sanctification the ability to resist temptation and not be enthralled to the passions.

Just as Mark 7:13 does not negate 1 Corinthians 11:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:15 or 2 Thessalonians 2:37, it is also the case that Hebrews 4:15 does not negate John 1:1-18 and John 10:30 and Isaiah 54:17.

So let us review:

- Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man, His assumed humanity united to His full eternal deity (coequal to and consubstantial with the Father and the Holy Spirit) in one person and one hypostasis (John 1:1-18, John 10:30, Matthew 28:19, et cetera).
- Because of His Humanity, Christ can be tempted, like us, but since He is God, he cannot succumb to temptation, a state we can also attain through Theosis (Entire Sanctification) which Lutherans separate from Justification, we Orthodox do not but regard it a continual salvific process but in both cases we agree the process is not instant and we can slip and fall back into sin and then recover and resume our progress towards becoming by grace what Christ is by nature, sons of God according to the promise, to quote Galatians 3:15-5:15).
- This is an example where it helps to have an understanding of the principle of communicatio idiomatum, wherein because of the unity of the deity and humanity of Christ, one cannot say that Christ was tempted as a man or died as a man - anything that happens to Christ happens to him as a person and not to one nature or another, which is the error of Nestorius, for which reason it is correct to say that God became man (otherwise we could not say that since it would be impossible for God who is invisible, unconstrained and immaterial and eternal to be contained in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary and be born, except by assuming our humanity, nor could we be saved).

If we read Hebrews 4:15 in context, it affirms the Incarnation of God in the person of Jesus Christ, but does not say that God could have sinned, and since we know Christ was, is and will be God, God with us, this simply shows how Jesus Christ put on our human nature and endured temptation so that we could resist temptation.

Also by the way it is for this reason that Christians observe the Great Lent and other fasts - these 40 day periods of reduced food consumption (but not total abstinence, which would be too dangerous for most) are known for being a great aid to the faithful in pursuit of sanctification and in overcoming the sinful passions.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

No, that would be a strawman fallacy on your part, nowhere did I say that humans cannot sin when tempted.

Then you are not paying attention to my argument or what the Scripture states. You cannot have it both ways.

Either Jesus was tempted AS WE ARE which we can sin when we are tempted or one is choosing to not address the actual Scriptures. You keep going off in a different direction and I have asked that you please not take this off topic.

 

[The Liturgist]

Then you are not paying attention to my argument or what the Scripture states. You cannot have it both ways.

Either Jesus was tempted AS WE ARE which we can sin when we are tempted or one is choosing to not address the actual Scriptures. You keep going off in a different direction and I have asked that you please not take this off topic.

Actually, I have paid very close attention to your argument and to Scripture, please refrain from ad hominems.

In this case, your argument contains a false dilemma, a logical fallacy - in that you claim that a subject cannot be X without Y despite evidence of that existing since Isaiah attests that God would be successful and the Gospel depicts God, having put on our humanity, enduring Sin but not succumbing to it, and in so doing making Himself, the Temple of His Incarnation, a template for our own sanctification, much like at His Baptism he made Himself a template for our being cleansed from sins and rising with Christ from the Jordan.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Actually, I have paid very close attention to your argument and to Scripture, please refrain from ad hominems.

In this case, your argument contains a false dilemma, a logical fallacy - in that you claim that a subject cannot be X without Y despite evidence of that existing since Isaiah attests that God would be successful and the Gospel depicts God, having put on our humanity, enduring Sin but not succumbing to it, and in so doing making Himself, the Temple of His Incarnation, a template for our own sanctification, much like at His Baptism he made Himself a template for our being cleansed from sins and rising with Christ from the Jordan.

Yet still not a response to the actual argument. If Jesus was tempted AS WE ARE, when we are tempted can we not sin? Otherwise He was not tempted as we are. This has actually not been addressed by one person. No one is saying Jesus was not fully man and not fully God or was not successful, but that does not address tempted AS WE ARE. If we have risk of sinning when tempted it means according to Scripture so did Jesus.

It's OK, I have no issue agreeing to disagree- God will be the one to sort this and everything else out in His time.

 

[The Liturgist]

esus would not fail, and He didn't. But look at why. Isa 42:6 "I will hold Your hand; I will keep You."

God kept Him. You only need keeping when there's a real danger. If Jesus couldn't have fallen, then "I will keep You" doesn't mean much.

Ah no, that reading of Isaiah 42:6 is unacceptable because it contradicts John 1:1-18, Colossians 2:9 and John 10:30, by separating Jesus from God, and in the process also contradicts the Nicene Creed (which should have been a red flag).

Since we we worship ONE Lord Jesus Christ, who is very God of very God, we can exclude the possibility of Him being helped by God as if He were ontologically separate from God or separable from God, when in John 10:30 he declares his Union.

Rather Isaiah 42:6 is referring to the salvation of humanity by the hypostatic union of the uncreated divine nature of Christ our True God, a nature shared with His coequal and coeternal Father and the Holy Spirit, with our fallen human nature, in His incarnation, which allowed Him to be tempted without sinning and allows us by putting on Christ and receiving the Holy Spirit to likewise be tempted without falling into sin and to be forgiven like the Prodigal Son if we do fail, since unlike Christ we are imperfect creatures, whereas He is in His person perfect and uncreated, but in an act of Kenosis He put on our fallen nature and united it to His divine nature and thus endured temptation and death itself, and triumphed over both.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Ah no, that reading of Isaiah 42:6 is unacceptable because it contradicts John 1:1-18, Colossians 2:9 and John 10:30, by separating Jesus from God, and in the process also contradicts the Nicene Creed (which should have been a red flag).

Since we we worship ONE Lord Jesus Christ, who is very God of very God, we can exclude the possibility of Him being helped by God as if He were ontologically separate from God or separable from God, when in John 10:30 he declares his Union.

Rather Isaiah 42:6 is referring to the salvation of humanity by the hypostatic union of the uncreated divine nature of Christ our True God, a nature shared with His coequal and coeternal Father and the Holy Spirit, with our fallen human nature, in His incarnation, which allowed Him to be tempted without sinning and allows us by putting on Christ and receiving the Holy Spirit to likewise be tempted without falling into sin and to be forgiven like the Prodigal Son if we do fail, since unlike Christ we are imperfect creatures, whereas He is in His person perfect and uncreated, but in an act of Kenosis He put on our fallen nature and united it to His divine nature and thus endured temptation and death itself, and triumphed over both.

No one separated Jesus from God. Once again creating things not actually stated and then trying to create an argument around your own words and not the poster. Its a pattern I see which is why I typically do not engage, its fruitless.

Your opinion noted, but no contradiction that God the Father kept Jesus God the Son in His human flesh Heb5:7, by what the Scripture says plainly and in doing that changes John1:1-18, Col 2:9 or John 10:30, why you think God's protection would do away with the divinity with Son in the flesh is beyond me, but suit yourself, we can believe anything we want.

Isa 42:6 “I, the Lord, have called You in righteousness,
And will hold Your hand;
I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people,
As a light to the Gentiles,

 

[The Liturgist]

Yet still not a response to the actual argument. If Jesus was tempted AS WE ARE, when we are tempted can we not sin?

Again, false equivalence fallacy, which was already addressed.

 

[The Liturgist]

Your opinion noted, but I am going to stick with the Word of God.

The Word of God is Jesus Christ according to John 1:1 and that same verse declares He is God.

But it appears you’re questioning His full and eternal deity because you seem to not accept that He could be fully God and fully man at the same time, uniting both in one person and one hypostasis, is that it?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The Word of God is Jesus Christ according to John 1:1 and that same verse declares He is God.

But it appears you’re questioning His full and eternal deity because you seem to not accept that He could be fully God and fully man at the same time, uniting both in one person and one hypostasis, is that it?

No, its your own made up argument. I find this offensive and I would request you please stop telling me what I believe. I have already stated to you Jesus was fully God and fully human.

 

[FreeinChrist]

ADVISOR HAT

This thread is closed. Please see this Advisor Hat.

The orthodox view is that yes, Jesus Christ is fully man/fully God and that both natures are united "without confusion, without change, without division, without separation" (Council of Chalechalon 451 A.D.)
As such, yes, Jesus was tempted as we are, knowing hunger and pain, loss. And yes, He limited Himself as described in Phillipians. And yes, He did not sin, and could not fail in His mission as an omnisient Godhead said it would be.

It is easy to violate the rules when debating the nature of Jesus.



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