Double predestination.

[Ryan Collins]

It is not a complete analogy, I admit. It was to illustrate justice and mercy, not predestination. The poster I was responding to wasn't asking a question about predestination, per se.

Oh, I gotcha.

 

[cygnusx1]

But that same governor is not holding those prisoners on death row morally responsible for their actions when they were foreordained. That governor is holding those prisoners on death row because of the choices they made, not because the governor predestined their actions from before the foundations of the Earth.

But God does so what ?

Read Acts 2 and 4 before you respond please

 

[Ryan Collins]

But God does so what ?

Read Acts 2 and 4 before you respond please

What am I supposed to be looking for?

 

[brvhrt]

I know neither side likes to be misunderstood, but I must say I have searched through the forums, and I'm not the only one confused about the basis of election being preached. You have to admit, you havent been exactly clear on that, lol. I've heard: it's God's sovereignty; or God looks into the future and sees a difference in the heart or mind of some. Which the latter would be a basis, because they were different in that they repented with Godly sorrow, rended their heart, turned from their wicked way, and had faith towards God; which is what we preach, except that, they havent been born yet. Does God judge people before they are created?

 

[cygnusx1]

What am I supposed to be looking for?

something along the lines of ;

But that same governor is not holding those prisoners on death row morally responsible for their actions when they were foreordained. That governor is holding those prisoners on death row because of the choices they made, not because the governor predestined their actions from before the foundations of the Earth.

 

[Ryan Collins]

I've read Acts 2 and Acts 4, but I don't know what I'm supposed to be replying to?

 

[cygnusx1]

I've read Acts 2 and Acts 4, but I don't know what I'm supposed to be replying to?

I* see , so you don't have any problem with God ordaining the sinful actions of men and then charging them guilty , good .

 

[Ryan Collins]

I* see , so you don't have any problem with God ordaining the sinful actions of men and then charging them guilty , good .

I don't see that anywhere in Acts 2 and Acts 4. I see that God ordained and foreknew THAT Jesus would be crucified but now foreknowing or ordaining WHO would do it.

 

[cygnusx1]

I don't see that anywhere in Acts 2 and Acts 4. I see that God ordained and foreknew THAT Jesus would be crucified but now foreknowing or ordaining WHO would do it.

I see so God knew and ordained (planned willed decreed) all that happened at Calvary including the denial betrayal etc , BUT didn't know who was involved ........ well if you think that , I better cease responding to you .

 

[Ryan Collins]

I see so God knew and ordained (planned willed decreed) all that happened at Calvary including the denial betrayal etc , BUT didn't know who was involved ........ well if you think that , I better cease responding to you .

I just don't like reading into the text. It was preordained that Christ was to be crucified, but show me Scripturally where it says that God foreordained WHO would crucify him.

 

[cygnusx1]

I just don't like reading into the text. It was preordained that Christ was to be crucified, but show me Scripturally where it says that God foreordained WHO would crucify him.

what are you after names and addresses and birthdates of the Roman soldiers ?

this should be enough , and it is my last post today ;


Acts.2

[1] And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
[2] And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
[3] And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
[4] And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
[5] And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
[6] Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
[7] And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
[8] And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
[9] Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
[10] Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
[11] Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
[12] And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
[13] Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
[14] But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
[15] For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
[16] But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
[17] And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
[18] And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
[19] And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
[20] The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
[21] And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
[22] Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
[23] Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
[24] Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
[25] For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
[26] Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
[27] Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
[28] Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
[29] Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
[30] Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
[31] He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
[32] This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
[33] Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
[34] For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
[35] Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
[36] Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
[37] Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
[38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[39] For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
[40] And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
[41] Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
[42] And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
[43] And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
[44] And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
[45] And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
[46] And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
[47] Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Acts.4

[1] And as they spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them,
[2] Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.
[3] And they laid hands on them, and put them in hold unto the next day: for it was now eventide.
[4] Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.
[5] And it came to pass on the morrow, that their rulers, and elders, and scribes,
[6] And Annas the high priest, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem.
[7] And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this?
[8] Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,
[9] If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;
[10] Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
[11] This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
[12] Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
[13] Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
[14] And beholding the man which was healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it.
[15] But when they had commanded them to go aside out of the council, they conferred among themselves,
[16] Saying, What shall we do to these men? for that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it.
[17] But that it spread no further among the people, let us straitly threaten them, that they speak henceforth to no man in this name.
[18] And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus.
[19] But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.
[20] For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.
[21] So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done.
[22] For the man was above forty years old, on whom this miracle of healing was shewed.
[23] And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them.
[24] And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
[25] Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
[26] The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
[27] For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
[28] For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

I guess God knew Judas would betray Christ , Christ knew , and Christ knew he would be crucified by the Romans , and Luke tells us God ordained these events entirely even though it was by wicked hands ...... even some names involved are given , God knows everything .

 

[brvhrt]

He did so because in His eternal counsel, He set His love upon them. He did not choose them because of anything within them, or anything He foresaw them doing. He chose them because it seemed good to Him to do so. Since all mankind is condemned even before they are born,
HuH? I've heard you say before that all men are corrupt. I believe they can become corrupt. My mother tells everyone, I was born a christian. When I was 5, I wanted to be an evangelist. My dad was a baptist preacher, my uncles and cousins preached as well. We go to a baptist church now. Honostly, I read the bible all the time, but doctrine was like 3 neighborhoods behind me. I just never went there. Till later, when I heard once saved, and they were using scriptures that I had read, and never once did see that. Like, I give unto you eternal life, and God saves us to the uttermost; never referred to once saved. The point is, I know none are good compared to God, but I remember as a teenager, there is no way I would have looked down the dress of a woman that bent over. To take advantage would have scared me. I see now it was conviction. I would not go around evil talk. I'm not going to tell you how old I was before I found out my dad didnt pray to God for me to be born, no! They shared each other, lol. My school had a heyday with that. But, what do you mean corrupt? I wasn't corrupt.

 

[Ryan Collins]

Okay, and? I still do not see how that goes against what I said about God ordaining THAT Christ be crucified but not WHO would crucify Christ. All you have simply done is highlight the portions of the text that speaks of people who did in fact crucify Christ, but not the fact that those who crucified Christ were ordained to do so like it says that Christ was ordained to be crucified.

 

[Ryan Collins]

I guess God knew Judas would betray Christ , Christ knew , and Christ knew he would be crucified by the Romans , and Luke tells us God ordained these events entirely even though it was by wicked hands ...... even some names involved are given , God knows everything .

When you come back tomorrow (or Monday since tomorrow is Sunday), since this was your last post, I would like to discuss this with you. I would like Scriptures and we can discuss this civilly.

 

[Deniece]

The point is, I know none are good compared to God, but

The point is God is the standard, not other people. Being "good" is not good enough. God demands righteousness and holiness. None of us can attain what God requires. (Praise the Lord for Jesus the Christ.)

 

[brvhrt]

Your right. Concerning the atonement all fall short. What I disagree with though, is that we cant, or dont have the desire to seek God because we are evil. Good people seek God. John the baptist said, Mt. 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance. And Paul preached the same thing. Will God give his grace (atonement) to those who dont have repentance, or godly sorrow. God only bestows his grace on those he deems worthy.

 

[Deniece]

Your right. Concerning the atonement all fall short. What I disagree with though, is that we cant, or dont have the desire to seek God because we are evil. Good people seek God. John the baptist said, Mt. 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance. And Paul preached the same thing. Will God give his grace (atonement) to those who dont have repentance, or godly sorrow. God only bestows his grace on those he deems worthy.

No one can be "worthy" of grace. It's a fundamental contradiction.

There are no "good people" apart from Christ. All have sinned...

What I'm learning is that God doesn't give us His grace because we have repentance and godly sorrow, but we have repentance and godly sorrow because God gives us grace.

Think about Paul. He approved of Steven's murder, and was on his way to persecute the followers of Christ. God stopped him in his tracks, when he was vile, and poured grace on him.

 

[Magentic]

No one can be "worthy" of grace. It's a fundamental contradiction.

There are no "good people" apart from Christ. All have sinned...

What I'm learning is that God doesn't give us His grace because we have repentance and godly sorrow, but we have repentance and godly sorrow because God gives us grace.

Think about Paul. He approved of Steven's murder, and was on his way to persecute the followers of Christ. God stopped him in his tracks, when he was vile, and poured grace on him.

The example of Paul seems more in line with the example of Cyrus. God didn't elect good or bad, gentile or Jew on anything but supporting His work being done. I don't think that proves anything. Neither Jew, gentile, male, female, slave or free is what Galations says yet Cyrus wasn't given grace to become of the tribe of Israel, spiritual or otherwise, from what we can get from scripture. Elect according to anything but God's purpose is unsupported in scripture.

 

[Deniece]

The example of Paul seems more in line with the example of Cyrus. God didn't elect good or bad, gentile or Jew on anything but supporting His work being done. I don't think that proves anything. Neither Jew, gentile, male, female, slave or free is what Galations says yet Cyrus wasn't given grace to become of the tribe of Israel, spiritual or otherwise, from what we can get from scripture. Elect according to anything but God's purpose is unsupported in scripture.

Before I respond, I want to make sure I'm understanding your POV correctly. When you say God only elects according to His purpose, are you saying that God only intervenes when He wants someone to do something "special" or are you saying that He elects individuals (all who come to Christ) because they are part of His purpose.
God bless.

 

[Magentic]

Before I respond, I want to make sure I'm understanding your POV correctly. When you say God only elects according to His purpose, are you saying that God only intervenes when He wants someone to do something "special" or are you saying that He elects individuals (all who come to Christ) because they are part of His purpose.
God bless.

The only scriptural evidence is of election according to purpose. I gave the examples of Paul and Cyrus. Cyrus was difinatively outlined, predestined, named and elect.