Double Predestination acceptable...

[renniks]

Some Biblical doctrine is best left to the spiritually mature and not presented to babes in Christ.
(Hebrews 6:1)

What I said is literally Calvinism in a nutshell.

 

[renniks]

Some Biblical doctrine is best left to the spiritually mature and not presented to babes in Christ.
(Hebrews 6:1)

And BTW I've been a believer for several decades.

 

[Clare73]

What I said is literally Calvinism in a nutshell.

I did not speak to that, I spoke to the issue of the immature not being ready for some doctrine.

And BTW I've been a believer for several decades.

Great! . . .did you think I was speaking of you personally, or maybe
I was speaking of "the ones it causes not to be able to come to him?"

 

[returntosender]

I don't think the Bible supports the view that we are born sinners. Everyone will be judged according to their own deeds, not someone else's.

We are born in the flesh and Adams's curse corrupted our nature in the flesh. We grow old and die, we are also predisposed to sin. It's our sinful nature that is inherited from Adam.

Thanks Rick, I should have pm'd you as I have taken it off topic.

 

[returntosender]

And BTW I've been a believer for several decades.

She's speaking of me. It's not personal to you. Judgment falls on the judger.

 

[returntosender]

That's a big can of worms that's been opened up a few times around here. I think it would require its own thread.

There have been so many threads on them, still I can't understand the hatred some have toward them.

 

[returntosender]

Because they make God a monster who causes people to not be able to come to him and then punishes them eternally for it.

Can you expound on that. Aside from the tulip thing it seems innocent. They do believe in pre selection.as far as I have seen.

 

[TedT]

There is a verse that says the works were finished from the foundation of the world

What works are finished? Creation, judgment, salvation, the heavenly marriage??

 

[TedT]

Those initials you use for your theology is a red flag.

Oh, yes? a red flag for what? This is new so I'd like to hear it in full, not just an allusion.

I use PCE because it is annoying to write out
Pre-Conception Existence every time I refer to it, which is a lot.

I also use:
ImCo
IOW and
etc,
ie,
do they wave red to you too?

 

[TedT]

Why are so many against the Calvinist beliefs?

In two references:
- unconditional election and reprobation
- their doctrine of OUR inherited sin or sinfulness or a sin nature from Adam

 

[TedT]

They do believe in pre selection.as far as I have seen.

They accept no merit in anyone elected to salvation NOR dismerit in anyone passed over for salvation to end in hell. People are in hell just because HE wants it like that.

It is a blasphemy against HIS holy nature as loving, righteous and just.

 

[renniks]

I did not speak to that, I spoke to the issue of the immature not being ready for some doctrine.

I always found this idea that the immature can't handle Calvinism to be dishonest. It's like getting someone in to the fold on false pretenses.

 

[renniks]

Can you expound on that. Aside from the tulip thing it seems innocent. They do believe in pre selection.as far as I have seen.

The "tulip thing" is Calvinism. It's just a quick way to explain it. Unconditional election, do you understand what that means? God picks some for salvation and leaves the rest to damnation for no reason we can comprehend. Does that sound like the gospel? Does that sound like "whosoever will"?

 

[TedT]

Nice,,,

 

[RickReads]

What works are finished? Creation, judgment, salvation, the heavenly marriage??

It's a bible verse that might support your contention. Suggests that all the works have been complete since the beginning. What we are experiencing could just be the playing out of God's plan, like a movie that is running. One minister I talked to about it once suggested the universe could be just a matrix like in the movie Matrix.

Hebrews 4:3
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

 

[RickReads]

Oh, yes? a red flag for what? This is new so I'd like to hear it in full, not just an allusion.

I use PCE because it is annoying to write out
Pre-Conception Existence every time I refer to it, which is a lot.

I also use:
ImCo
IOW and
etc,
ie,
do they wave red to you too?

It makes you sound like you are promoting some kind of cult. Most newly invented doctrines have problems.

 

[Clare73]

In two references:
- unconditional election and reprobation
- their doctrine of OUR inherited sin or sinfulness or a sin nature from Adam

Romans 5:18 - "The result of one trespass was condemnation for all men."

Are you free to live a completely sinless life in thought, word and deed from this day to the end of your life?

Why not?

Because of your fallen sin nature which you inherited from Adam, just as you inherited a nose, two eyes and two ears from Adam.

 

[Clare73]

They accept no merit in anyone elected to salvation NOR dismerit in anyone passed over for salvation to end in hell. People are in hell just because HE wants it like that.

It is a blasphemy against HIS holy nature as loving, righteous and just.

Perhaps it would be. . .if that were the doctrine.
However, it is not about dismerit in anyone, no such thing exists, for
all are born condemned; i.e., in "dismerit."
Romans 5:18 - "The result of one trespass was condemnation for all men."

Some are chosen for salvation for no other reason than God's sovereign right to choose,
Romans 9:18 - "Therefore, God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and
he hardens whom he wants to harden."
As in Jacob and Esau:
Romans 9:11-13 - "Before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that his purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls. . ."

Romans 9:19- "Some of you (Ted?) will say, "Then why does God still blame us? (i.e., if God determines whose heart is hardened and whose is not, how can God blame anyone for hardening his heart?)
But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? 'Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, "Why did you make me like this?" (Isaiah 29:16, Isaiah 45:9)'
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble use and some for common use (human waste)?"

Is this Calvin's doctrine of which you speak?
.

 

[Clare73]

I always found this idea that the immature can't handle Calvinism to be dishonest. It's like getting someone in to the fold on false pretenses.

So how do you handle the doctrine in post #58 (above) with the immature believer (Hebrews 6:1)?

 

[Clare73]

The "tulip thing" is Calvinism. It's just a quick way to explain it. Unconditional election, do you understand what that means? God picks some for salvation and leaves the rest to damnation for no reason we can comprehend.

Does that sound like the gospel? Does that sound like "whosoever will"?

Does it sound like the Biblical doctrine in post #58?

It sounds like the gospel of:

John 6:65 - "NO one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

John 6:37 - "All that the Father gives me will come to me."

John 6:39 - "I shall lose none of all that he has given me."