Don't tell ME it isn't a deviancy! . . . Catholics only, please.

[Gwendolyn]

I know this. But what is your point?

I don't think I have one. LOL.

 

[ps139]

The problem comes in when we drift from claims about ethical and spritual things to claims about factual matters.

I do not follow. Unless you are asserting that a dogma is not a "fact." It is not a scientific fact, but it has the same level of validity and truthfulness.
(I realize we are not discussing dogma, I only use it for a clear illustration).

 

[CaDan]

I do not follow. Unless you are asserting that a dogma is not a "fact." It is not a scientific fact, but it has the same level of validity and truthfulness.
(I realize we are not discussing dogma, I only use it for a clear illustration).

I am discussing factual claims made by individuals. Specifically, the implied claim in the OP that same sex couples routinely or habitually abuse or murder children and the claim made by WarriorAngel that children are automatically repulsed by same sex couples.

There are a lot of issues running around in this thread. I am only addressing a very limited number of them.

As to the bit of the issue you and I are discussing: If you are admitting that we have no way of measuring whether or not children are physically or mentally harmed by being raised by same sex couples, then we should refrain from saying that they are. If you are not making that admission, than I really have nothing to say about it and will therefor remain silent.

 

[GraceInHim]

I got a couple of rice cakes. I think they're a little stale, though.

here is a chocolate bunny..

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

The Church has determined otherwise as far as their spiritual health is concerned.

The Pope has said having a homosexual couple raise a child does violence to him or her. However, if all of our options involve doing violence to the child, aren't we obligated to find the lesser of the evils?

 

[Benedicta00]

well then i guess i don't understand. i've always been taught that dogma absolutely could not be wavered from and i accept that but that the others are subject to interpretation for lack of a better term.

the problem i have with this whole thing is in essence if the Church stops these adoptions how is that not a grave sin; keeping children from prospective happy and loving homes, regardless of what sex the parents may be, regardless of the religious affiliation they may be. how is that not morally wrong?

Well Kim here’s the deal. Dogmas are articles of faith, like the Resurrection, you have to believe that because it is a very intricate part of the Christian faith. If you don’t believe it, you sin against the very virtue of faith. This really isn'ta matter of denying a artical of faith.

The Church is infallible on matters of faith and morals, meaning that is the Church says behavior or thing X is a sin then it’s seen objectively as a sin. The Church teaches this becuase this is what has come from the apostles, so in that sense, it's 'of the faith' --you do have to assent.

Homosexual living and acts is sin. Period. You can’t argue that it’s not and not find yourself at odds with the Church.

You can struggle with this, not comprehend this and that’s okay but you are to assume the Church does know better than you and just submit to that fact and not to what you personally believe is true, to what you believe is right or wrong based on your subjective view.

Like I said, this will have no happy ending because some kids are probably better off physically and emontionally with gay parents. The Church I’m sure realizes that. The Church is not saying they aren’t placing these kids because the parents aren’t good parents but are not placing them with gay couples who live this sin out because that is spiritual danger and condoning the life and acts which are sins. The Church can not do that.

I think what stopping you is a humanistic POV over an overall spiritual POV. That our first and main priority is to be as pain free in this world.

This life will never ever bring us or anyone total happiness and sometime innocent kids as well as adults suffer here, it is a fact of life and gay lifestyle tolerance and abortion, all those things aren’t going to prevent suffering from happening. We can’t fight evil with evil; we can’t use evil to try to accomplish good.

It’s for reasons known only to God why some people will suffer more than others. We are dealing with a divine mystery. What we should take away from this is that this world sucks and that’s why we as Christians are told to despise it and look to the world to come.

People are losing their faith left and right these days because when they see how rotten and evil the world is, and seeing that is actually a gift from God, they cling more to it and less to God and then it’s only a matter of time, they’ll lose faith, live outside the truth and even become atheists.


Suffering can be a good tool in detachment where one finds real joy through faith in Jesus. Remember what he said, this world will give us trouble, he promised it would but said “Take care, I have conquered the world.” Complete happiness really can’t be found in this world, only in the next.

If we obey the commandments and obey God, we can have a certain amount of reasonable happiness here but look around, how many is doing that? And then ppl want to blame the Church when the innocent suffer because the Church will not allow sin to correct the situation when sin caused it in the first place.

The Church does recognize the limitations in this matter, that she can not offer something better but she can not, in no way condone something that God sees as an abomination, she has zero authority to do that.

The kids in the system suffering is not the Church’s fault, it the parents of these kids. If the kids don’t get a good home, the Church isn’t to blame, their natural parents are.

 

[Benedicta00]

well maybe because i personally don't consider homosexuals fire breathing heathens. who is turning this into the morality debate? my point is, homosexuals as well as atheist as well as single parents are just as capable of being loving and nurturing to a child who only wishes someone would love them enough to adopt them. bottom line.

Kim, try not to spin this, no one said that homosexuals are bad ppl. I know so many myself personally who are raising kids and I don’t have a bad thing to say about them at all.

This is not an issue of them being demonized, it's an issue that they are living in sin and the Church will not place a child in the middle of that.

The Church will not also place a child where the couple is cohabiting either, why? because it's immoral and a sin. Secular adoption doesn’t even do that because they want commitment and stability for the child.

The people who chose to live in sin can be lovely people but sin is still sin. They need our prayers to show them that as hard as it is to imagine, sin is sin and it can cost them eternity. They are just blind and they know not what they do, they need grace to convict them and show them the way.

 

[Benedicta00]

I'm not Kim but I'll answer the question. They cannot receive communion because they are in a state of mortal sin.

Sad- but the ones I know, go up anyway.

 

[Benedicta00]

..

 

[Debi1967]

The Pope has said having a homosexual couple raise a child does violence to him or her. However, if all of our options involve doing violence to the child, aren't we obligated to find the lesser of the evils?

Please show me where it is Biblical to align ourselves with the devil?.... If the Bible calls them the UNRIGHTEOUS then who is their head? And then who are we giving the child to? The protection of God or the Devil?

So there is your lesser evil......

 

[WarriorAngel]

here is a chocolate bunny..

That was me last Easter...how did you catch that on video?? lol

 

[WarriorAngel]

There is no question about it......the state cannot and should not regulate the way the Church handles her adoption agencies.

IF they dont like it, they can open three more state regulated agencies...

Hands OFF!

This also goes for outsiders who feel they have a say over how the Church should run things.

NOW is it true the agency had to close?...The kids suffer, and no one else.

..... I am gonna behave...but I dont wanna.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

There is no question about it......the state cannot and should not regulate the way the Church handles her adoption agencies.

IF they dont like it, they can open three more state regulated agencies...

Hands OFF!

This also goes for outsiders who feel they have a say over how the Church should run things.

NOW is it true the agency had to close?...The kids suffer, and no one else.

..... I am gonna behave...but I dont wanna.

The state has say over how the Church runs the adoption agency because adoption is a responsibility of the state. Catholic Charities was merely acting as an agent of the state.

The MA bishops chose to terminate their contract with the state.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

Please show me where it is Biblical to align ourselves with the devil?.... If the Bible calls them the UNRIGHTEOUS then who is their head? And then who are we giving the child to? The protection of God or the Devil?

So there is your lesser evil......

Gay people are not the devil.

 

[GraceInHim]

That was me last Easter...how did you catch that on video?? lol

Just would like to add to this thread..

(Gen 2:18-25 NIV) The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him." - Did God make another Man..

{24} For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh. {25} The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.

Believe that the fundamental reason why homosexual activity is wrong is found in the creation account in which God brought man and woman together and then the bible comments: For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh (Gen 2:24). This passage of scripture is endorsed by Jesus in Mt 19:5 and Mk 10:8 and by Paul in Eph 5:31.

Those who have entered into a homosexual lifestyle can find help, hope and courage to exit from that lifestyle. believe in the right to choose to exit a gay lifestyle.

People can choose thier lifestyles. A persons orientation does not force him to carry out sodomy or buggery. Gays are not robots or creatures of animal instinct. A gay gene does not force a person to do anything, people are not preprogrammed like a robot. We have a choice, which includes celibacy. No one has died because they did not have sex!

Of course We do not condemn those who are in a homosexual lifestyle, we believe that Jesus came into the world not to condemn it but to save it, and he also called sinners to repentance and said "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick" (Luke 5:31-32). We also believe that there will be a day of judgment when each person will have to answer to their Creator, we should prepare for that day.

This issue on adopting children is the right decision the Church made to halt all adoptions. Would Jesus hand over a child to a Gay couple? This is the Catholic Church!

Believe that through Jesus Christ a homosexual can change his/her lifestyle - 1 Cor 6:11 But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God'.

​

 

[Benedicta00]

The state has say over how the Church runs the adoption agency because adoption is a responsibility of the state. Catholic Charities was merely acting as an agent of the state.

The MA bishops chose to terminate their contract with the state.

The state can not make the Church do something the Church is against morally speaking. The Church will close it's agency before she will participate in compromising her truth.

That is what has happened, who's losing? The kids. Again- I don’t know what you all want but the Church can not be asked to do something immoral to appease everyone one who believes it’s not immoral.

Leave the Church alone, please and allow her the same religious freedom you give to yourself. If not placing kids in gay homes is what is against her religious beliefs, respect her for it, okay? You can't make her do something that is against her beliefs.

 

[Benedicta00]

Gay people are not the devil.

No, of course they aren’t the devil and we have never said they are. I wish y’all would stop adding drama to this.

The acts they commit are disordered and an abomination to God. It’s a sin that really does offend God in a bad way for the simple fact, he didn’t create the act to be used in that way.

If any one dies still unrepentant, who committed those sins, will suffer the eternal consequences for them.

I also dare say anyone who dies, meets the Lord and still argues with Him that those sins are acceptable even when they learn they aren’t, then they too just may lose their soul as well.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Gay ppl are not the devil, but they are allowing the devil to manipulate their sexuality.

Sad really.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

I am disturbed by the apparent double standard here. The reasons given for why homosexual couples should never be able to adopt apply just as well to other couples, yet few if any here seem to care about those cases.

 

[marciadietrich]

So other than Debi's reply, which I think the cases she mentioned were not "single" parents (never married and no intent of marrying in the near future) but rather people who either were currently married (barren women, in OT times knew that due to having sex and not having children) or women who had been married (widows) there isn't really anything addressing single parents.

Single parent adoption would not have the opposite sex parent and which would be skipping the sacrament of marriage right to the fruit of marriage (who needs a man - or woman - just adopt) ... and not opposed to or less opposed to unmarried heterosexuals adopting? What is the reasoning behind saying no adoption at all as opposed to having the gay couples be in the que with other sinners, nonChristians or athiest or cases which are not ideal (ideal being stable, married, financially secure heterosexual union of Christian parents).

I think it is possible to be opposed to gay marriage and stand firm on that issue, but also to allow for adoption - given particular requirements are met - for the sake of children in need of love and care.

Marcia