Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

The Righterzpen · Jun 21, 2019

Grip Docility said:
Satan started the fire of rebellion and we keep adding fuel to it.

Satan’s rebellion plan was so comprehensive its a top that doesn’t even have to be spun, anymore. IMO

Satan is full time in fighting the Gospel with Anathema messages of all sorts.... within Christianity, world religion and people salted by Anathema Gospels, Salty at Christ for reasons that are false.

Lies are his only weapon.

Human indifference towards other humans and Anathema messages are His present trade.

Came to a realization not too long ago from the discussion on another thread that Satan's fall was immediate, absolute and "faster than the speed of light". Free fall faster than the World Trade Center - his self induced "controlled demolition"!

Unlike humanity who retained the ability to make moral decisions; Satan's fall was not of "total depravity". No, he was "depraved totally". Absolutely and utterly morally and ethically bankrupt!

Yet being "second in command of the angelic host" (if we accept traditional theologians interpretations of this) with knowledge of the entire battle plan; that betrayal of God was incredibly severe.

I'm beginning to see more and more how what ever those "spirit entities" we call "angels" are; that they are fundamentally very different from carbon based life.

fhansen · Jun 21, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Human choice was forfeited by the first human who ate fruit he wasn't suppose to. How is that God's fault?

If you see and understand the helpless state you are in and recognize that God has provided (and executed upon) a way out; would you not rather be grateful to God for the fact that Adam's thievery of your free will, potentially may not ultimately condemn you?

Besides the fact that if you were in Adam's (bare feet); you would have stolen his free will yourself!

Sounds an awful lot like Jacob stealing his brother's (Christ's) birthright.

Doesn't do much good for those He predestined to eternal torment, the unavoidable down side to such theology.

The Righterzpen said:
You realize you just contradicted yourself here don't you? (Confused theology?)

No, because I didn't. But you're welcome to enlighten me if somehow able.

The Righterzpen said:
When you're in a pitch black house and been tripping over the furniture your entire life and suddenly someone cuts the lights on suddenly you can see! Does your "free will" say: "Shut the lights off, I'd rather trip around in the dark!"

It doesn't work that way. God doesn't overwhelm us by throwing the light on full blast, even while some experiences can be more profound that others at times. Rather we grow in comprehension of the light and as we do we grow in love for the Light-bearer and as we do our justice increases.

The Righterzpen said:
Once one has felt the goodness of awakening, far from "will" being "forced upon"; will becomes the imputes that chases after He who's awakened you.

Like I said, it doesn't work that way. The human will is totally captivated in that way only in heaven, where we know fully just as we're fully known. Until then we struggle with sin, we strive, we may or may not persevere. Heaven is the prize.

The Righterzpen · Jun 21, 2019

fhansen said:
Doesn't do much good for those He predestined to eternal torment, the unavoidable down side to such theology.

No one is "predestine to eternal torment" they earned that as the wages of their sin.

And they got exactly what they always wanted; because in this life their greatest and grandest desire was to be "out from the thumb of God" so they could "enjoy their sin in peace". They so desired to be away from the presence of God that in the end - that's what they get.

Now the flip side of this "predestination coin" is that if it were not for God's intention upon the part of some; this would be the end of all of us because this is what we all wanted from the get go. No one seeks after God - Romans 3

fhansen said:
No, because I didn't. But you're welcome to enlighten me if somehow able.

Well, if you can't see it; I'm not the One who can help you.

fhansen said:
It doesn't work that way. God doesn't overwhelm us by throwing the light on full blast, even while some experiences can be more profound that others at times. Rather we grow in comprehension of the light and as we do we grow in love for the Light-bearer and as we do our justice increases.

"Throwing the light on" isn't about experience. It's about being raised from the dead.

fhansen said:
Like I said, it doesn't work that way. The human will is totally captivated in that way only in heaven, where we know fully just as we're fully known. Until then we struggle with sin, we strive, we may or may not persevere. Heaven is the prize

You misunderstand what it means to be born of God. The realization that one has been raised to life, is the imputes that causes obedience. And that very much translates into the experience of "chase down the will of the Object of one's love in this life".

This does not negate that a believer still contends with sin; but as Paul said: "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death."

Of if I were to translate that truth into an earthly human behavior; it would be a "come here let me hug and kiss You Jesus" moment.

MDC · Jun 21, 2019

fhansen said:
Except that I'd say it ain't over till the fat lady sings, as the movie line goes. We can't know with certainty whether or not we'll remain surrendered for good, whose will necessarily wins out in the end. That's what makes it a struggle-and a good one.

There’s certainty in Christ. You have none simply because you see your works as the bases for your salvation. This is the fallacy with your doctrine. There’s no faith that Christ is sufficient to save. In other words there’s no faith in the gospel. This is why there’s no guarantee you’ll be delivered from your sin in the end. Christ and His merits guarantees salvation for believers. There’s no assurance simply because there’s no faith in Christ

fhansen · Jun 21, 2019

MDC said:
There’s certainty in Christ. You have none simply because you see your works as the bases for your salvation. This is the fallacy with your doctrine. There’s no faith that Christ is sufficient to save. In other words there’s no faith in the gospel. This is why there’s no guarantee you’ll be delivered from your sin in the end. Christ and His merits guarantees salvation for believers. There’s no assurance simply because there’s no faith in Christ

Nonsense. Christ is the absolute center of my faith. I just don't have faith in my faith as you do, as if I can assess it's level and quality and efficacy and say, yes, it's sufficient, let alone, yes, I'll persevere in it. God, alone, knows that with perfect certainty at this point and for us it would be presumptuous to think we had that kind of certainty ourselves. Christ admonishes us to abide in Him, because of the possibility that we may not.

We don't earn our way to heaven, we just do His will the best with the grace were given and let Him judge how well we've done. As Christianity teaches, summing this up, "At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

MDC · Jun 21, 2019

fhansen said:
Nonsense. Christ is the absolute center of my faith. I just don't have faith in my faith as you do, as if I can assess it's level and quality and efficacy and say, yes, it's sufficient, let alone, yes, I'll persevere in it. God, alone, knows that with perfect certainty at this point and for us it would be presumptuous to think we had that kind of certainty ourselves. Christ admonishes us to abide in Him, because of the possibility that we may not.

We don't earn our way to heaven, we just do His will the best with the grace were given and let Him judge how well we've done. As Christianity teaches, summing this up, "At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

Well you summed up what I said previously. The only erroneous comment you said was my faith is in my faith. Whatever that means

fhansen · Jun 21, 2019

MDC said:
Well you summed up what I said previously. The only erroneous comment you said was my faith is in my faith. Whatever that means

It means that we can't just rely on faith, itself, as if that can stand in for righteousness or allow us to escape our obligation to it. Faith, properly understood, is the only right means to righteousness as it's the first step in reestablishing the relationship or communion with God that man was made for but which fallen man lacks. From within that relationship God causes justice or righteousness in man; He justifies us as we abide in Him.

Anyway, when the gospel is truly understood the quote I gave is readily understood as well. Love is the primary definition of justice for man which is why the Greatest Commandments are what they are incidentally. God expects more and wants much more for us than we often give Him credit for.

MDC · Jun 21, 2019

fhansen said:
It means that we can't just rely on faith, itself, as if that can stand in for righteousness or allow us to escape our obligation to it. Faith, properly understood, is the only right means to righteousness as it's the first step in reestablishing the relationship or communion with God that man was made for but which fallen man lacks. From within that relationship God causes justice or righteousness in man; He justifies us as we abide in Him.

Anyway, when the gospel is truly understood the quote I gave is readily understood as well. Love is the primary definition of justice for man which is why the Greatest Commandments are what they are incidentally. God expects more and wants much more for us than we often give Him credit for.

There’s no such thing as you describe. What is faith without the object it relies in? Hebrews 11:1. Faith isn’t meritorious. Faith is the means by which one rest in what’s meritorious (Christ). The object I rest in, is Christ and He alone as my assurance of salvation and righteousness. Christ’s righteousness is my justification. This is the opposite of what you believe. You seem to believe infused righteousness justifies you.. which is nothing more than you working for your salvation. The fruit of faith in Christ is faithfulness. Salvation is Gods work alone. Philippians 1:6. Not a cooperative effort you erroneously believe

Grip Docility · Jun 21, 2019

fhansen said:
It means that we can't just rely on faith, itself, as if that can stand in for righteousness or allow us to escape our obligation to it. Faith, properly understood, is the only right means to righteousness as it's the first step in reestablishing the relationship or communion with God that man was made for but which fallen man lacks. From within that relationship God causes justice or righteousness in man; He justifies us as we abide in Him.

Anyway, when the gospel is truly understood the quote I gave is readily understood as well. Love is the primary definition of justice for man which is why the Greatest Commandments are what they are incidentally. God expects more and wants much more for us than we often give Him credit for.

I’ll say it per James and Paul... and Jesus... Faith without Love is Dead! But... He’s supplies that too.

You’re saved and sealed Brother.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 21, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Paul was talking about Judaism which is trying to be justified by works. That is completely different than abiding in Christ’s love. Abiding in Christ means you are in Him and He is in you. His love is working through you and the result of love is works. We are always eager to do works to show our love to those we love. We do it because we desire to do what makes them happy, it’s not self serving. This is what Jesus was talking about in John 15. He definitely says that bearing fruit and abiding in Him is absolutely required for salvation.

You are confusing justification with sanctification.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 21, 2019

fhansen said:
I don't know why we would insist on making righteousness an ugly thing, almost as if faith is somehow separated from it, and/or a license to escape from it. It sort of harkens back to Is 5:20.

Can't God, with His new creations, make them righteous, as He intended them to be? And be pleased with this? No one has to boast about it-that would be unrighteous, in fact.

And there seem to be contradictions here. Some folk are saying that humans cannot possibly be righteous in any way while others are saying that righteousness, i.e. sanctity, is a side benefit of being justified or saved. At least the second group acknowledges that God really can and does effect real change in redeemed man, change that involves a "God-righteousness" as opposed to self-righteousness.

For me the difference is that this sanctification, this "righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith" (Phil 3), is part and parcel of our justification; it's what faith is meant to lead to as we work out our salvation with He who works in us, to paraphrase Phil 2. It's to "invest" the "talents" He gives, with more given as the first gift is increased. It's to finally start becoming who He created man to be.

It is true that sanctification is linked with Justification, but Justification is receiving Jesus as Saviour and that is achieve through faith in His finished work alone. As soon as that happens, we are sanctified in the eyes of God and are given, as a free gift, the righteousness of Christ. Christ took our sinfulness and exchanged it for His righteousness. Then we do the works of sanctification not for salvation, but because we are saved.

Having said that, a person who does not go on, being led of the Spirit indwelling him, to works of sanctification, cannot show the evidence that he has been truly converted to Christ through what he does.

Grip Docility · Jun 21, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Paul was talking about Judaism which is trying to be justified by works. That is completely different than abiding in Christ’s love. Abiding in Christ means you are in Him and He is in you. His love is working through you and the result of love is works. We are always eager to do works to show our love to those we love. We do it because we desire to do what makes them happy, it’s not self serving. This is what Jesus was talking about in John 15. He definitely says that bearing fruit and abiding in Him is absolutely required for salvation.

Oscarr said:
You are confusing justification with sanctification.

Oscarr... correct me if I’m wrong...

BNR32FAN... Oscarr isn’t admonishing or saying you are way off target... but He’s reassuring you that Christ has fully justified you and you are fully SAVED. He’s reassuring you that Sanctification is a process that God does... over time, as a result of Faith in Him that is brought Faith to Faith by Him.

In other words... Ditch the John 15 idea, keep the Love and trust that God, now, has you grasped, you’re not grasping God.

In other words... Enjoy your Sabbath Rest (Hebrews 4... AKA Jesus)

Stop fearing being thrown into the fire! Perfect Love casts out ALL fear and Sibling in Him... God is Perfect Love.

My mere opinion.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 21, 2019

fhansen said:
Except that I'd say it ain't over till the fat lady sings, as the movie line goes. We can't know with certainty whether or not we'll remain surrendered for good, whose will necessarily wins out in the end. That's what makes it a struggle-and a good one.

I understand that this is Catholic theology, and that a church law canon says that those who trust in Christ alone for salvation are to be anathema. Catholic theology on salvation is that one has to wait for the judgment and his good deeds are weighed up with his bad deeds and according to the balance, he is either admitted or rejected.

It is interesting that look as hard as I may, I can't see anything in Paul's epistles that actually teach that there will be a balancing of this kind at the day of judgment. He seems that those who are trusting in the works of the law to get them to heaven, fail through just one sinful act, and that one sinful act, from childhood, swings the balance right down toward rejection, and any good works are totally cancelled out.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 21, 2019

Grip Docility said:
Brother... You’ve surrendered to Him...

I like to quote two poems...

Invictus and our Deepest Fear.

Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds and shall find me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate,
I am the captain of my soul.

I say... I am the Captain of my Soul, that has accepted Him and Surrendered to HIM as my War Admiral.

He wins, every time.

“Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us; it's in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.”

We are surrendered and sealed and zig as we might, He’ll ALWAYS OutZag the Saved and Sealed.

We just let that LIGHT Shine.

Brother, we are IN the HIM, Our Sabbath Rest. Hebrews 4

After having studied Catholic theology concerning salvation, I can say that he will never agree with you. If he did, he would have to leave, or be excommunicated from the Catholic church.

Grip Docility · Jun 21, 2019

Oscarr said:
After having studied Catholic theology concerning salvation, I can say that he will never agree with you. If he did, he would have to leave, or be excommunicated from the Catholic church.

Oh... well... I’m Catholic.

But... I guess the “Invisible Universal Body” meaning isn’t what you’re talking about, or what he is claiming as his main squeeze?

Well he is... but he carries a brand name.

fhansen · Jun 21, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
No one is "predestine to eternal torment" they earned that as the wages of their sin.

If they have no choice but to sin then they've earned nothing. Accountability/ cupability is based on freedom to choose or the terms are meaningless.

The Righterzpen said:
And they got exactly what they always wanted; because in this life their greatest and grandest desire was to be "out from the thumb of God" so they could "enjoy their sin in peace". They so desired to be away from the presence of God that in the end - that's what they get.

Ok, that works; man's will, independent of God's, directly affects his eternal destiny. According to what they "want".

The Righterzpen said:
"Throwing the light on" isn't about experience. It's about being raised from the dead.

It's about knowledge, revealed by Christ and made believable by grace. Either way it's not a one time event nor is it strictly done to us. We respond, or not, we can resist; we can say yes; we can say no.

The Righterzpen said:
You misunderstand what it means to be born of God. The realization that one has been raised to life, is the imputes that causes obedience. And that very much translates into the experience of "chase down the will of the Object of one's love in this life".

No, that's not it.

The Righterzpen said:
This does not negate that a believer still contends with sin; but as Paul said: "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death."

Of if I were to translate that truth into an earthly human behavior; it would be a "come here let me hug and kiss You Jesus" moment.

I admit I didn't quite understand this last part. Either way the more we know God the more we love Him, along with neighbor; this cannot be helped. And the more we love God and neighbor the less we sin, and, BTW, the more we do- for "the least of these"-acts which Jesus just happens to mention as criteria for judgment in Matt 25.

Grip Docility · Jun 21, 2019

fhansen said:
If they have no choice but to sin then they've earned nothing. Accountability/ cupability is based on freedom to choose or the terms are meaningless.

Ok, that works; man's will, independent of God's, directly affects his eternal destiny. According to what they "want".

It's about knowledge, revealed by Christ and made believable by grace. Either way it's not a one time event nor is it strictly done to us. We respond, or not, we can resist, we can say yes, or no.

No, that's not it.

I admit I didn't quite understand this last part. Either way the more we know God the more we love Him, along with neighbor; this cannot be helped. And the more we love God and neighbor the less we sin, and, BTW, the more we do- for "the least of these"-acts which Jesus just happens to mention as criteria for judgment in Matt 25.

Acts of Love... but.... This verse...

Philippians 4:19

Do you believe it? From Paul to the church of Brotherly Love. (Insert Rock Hand Emoji).

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 21, 2019

Grip Docility said:
Oh... well... I’m Catholic.

But... I guess the “Invisible Universal Body” meaning isn’t what you’re talking about, or what he is claiming as his main squeeze?

Well he is... but he carries a brand name.

Oh dear! I hope I didn't put my foot in it!
If you are trusting in Christ's finished work alone for salvation, and agree that sanctification is a progressive work that you do with the strength of the Holy Spirit (without which you can't), then maybe you have put the bit of Catholic theology that is based on faith and works on the back burner!

I have been reading JC Ryle's book on Holiness, and he says that if we have Jesus, then it matters not which church we go to, whether we use the liturgy, or not, because the church is just the scaffolding to support our faith in Christ. I like that.

My wife was educated Catholic, and she has a very good and strong character, and very faithful and supportive. She has really helped me to understand how Catholic-educated people think.

Grip Docility · Jun 21, 2019

Oscarr said:
Oh dear! I hope I didn't put my foot in it!
If you are trusting in Christ's finished work alone for salvation, and agree that sanctification is a progressive work that you do with the strength of the Holy Spirit (without which you can't), then maybe you have put the bit of Catholic theology that is based on faith and works on the back burner!

I have been reading JC Ryle's book on Holiness, and he says that if we have Jesus, then it matters not which church we go to, whether we use the liturgy, or not, because the church is just the scaffolding to support our faith in Christ. I like that.

My wife was educated Catholic, and she has a very good and strong character, and very faithful and supportive. She has really helped me to understand how Catholic-educated people think.

It’s just a brandname. We’re all in the same NASCAR race.

Ask who we are saved by and Jesus’ Name will raise the roof.

I tend to appreciate the RCC folk, quite a bit.

def · Jun 21, 2019

Grip Docility said:
Oscarr... correct me if I’m wrong...

BNR32FAN... Oscarr isn’t admonishing or saying you are way off target... but He’s reassuring you that Christ has fully justified you and you are fully SAVED. He’s reassuring you that Sanctification is a process that God does... over time, as a result of Faith in Him that is brought Faith to Faith by Him.

In other words... Ditch the John 15 idea, keep the Love and trust that God, now, has you grasped, you’re not grasping God.

In other words... Enjoy your Sabbath Rest (Hebrews 4... AKA Jesus)

Stop fearing being thrown into the fire! Perfect Love casts out ALL fear and Sibling in Him... God is Perfect Love.

My mere opinion.

I think the debate is on OSAS:

Oscarr's position is OSAS. The Holy Spirit will ensure the believer remains saved.

BNR32FAN's position is once saved, believers have to abide in Jesus to remain saved otherwise they may fall away.

Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

Does willful sin separate those once saved from God.

No, obedience is "works" and we are not saved by works.

Yes, willful sin must be repented from in order to stay saved.

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