Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Willful sin would be agonizing to the born-again believer. I don't believe obedience is marked by works but it's a sign of the Spirit working inside the believer. We wouldn't want to displease God with our sin after we receive His love, even if we fall into temptation.

I agree. The Holy Spirit within him would be screaming at him against it. He would have to totally resist the strong prompting of the Holy Spirit to go back and engage in regular willful sin. In the end, continued resistance to the Holy Spirit will grieve Him, and He will depart, leaving the person without protection from even worse sin, and if the person continues in the outward forms of Christianity, he will prove to be nothing more than a hypocrite who is now pretending to be a believer, but his heart has been hardened against Christ. He is then treading the cross underfoot, and it may be very difficult for him to return to true repentance.

 

[fhansen]

Boy....talk about confused theology!!!!

If so it's the only theology the Christian Church, in both the east and the west, has known since the beginning.

 

[fhansen]

So you are sinless???? I hope for your sake that you answer no. Otherwise you contradict plain Scripture: 1 John 1:8 "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Jesus taught us to pray, forgive us our (sins) as we forgive those who sin against us" (Matthew 6:12). Did Jesus deceive us?? Beware of being a messenger for doctrines of demons.

1 John 1:8 speaks of the beginning, of conversion. So you should keep reading:
"No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him." 1 John 3:6

 

[def]

I'm talking about the true meaning of verses and words. When we change the meaning, that's where false doctrines are birthed.

The phenomenon is known as the butterfly effect and the effect leads to chaos, the situation we have today.

The flap of a butterfly's wing (slight distortion of a meaning) in Brazil (far away) can lead to a tornado in Texas (major impact on the gospel message).

 

[BNR32FAN]

Paul spoke by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, which is the same as Jesus speaking, and he says that those who are depending on works to receive salvation are under a curse. He says if you are depending on works, you have to comply with every single law of God without exception right from childhood. One infraction of the Law will lead to condemnation.

I think that you need to consider whether you are trusting in the true gospel of Christ, and not another gospel.

Paul was talking about Judaism which is trying to be justified by works. That is completely different than abiding in Christ’s love. Abiding in Christ means you are in Him and He is in you. His love is working through you and the result of love is works. We are always eager to do works to show our love to those we love. We do it because we desire to do what makes them happy, it’s not self serving. This is what Jesus was talking about in John 15. He definitely says that bearing fruit and abiding in Him is absolutely required for salvation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

If one remains in the light, there will be no more sin to cleanse.
Men cannot hop back and forth between light and darkness, though they may think they can.
Those in darkness, sin, cannot say they have fellowship with God. (1 John 1:6)

But they can repent and come back to the light. Repentance can be instantaneous. It only takes a moment to turn to darkness and turn back to the light.

 

[Wordkeeper]

if a person premeditates to commit a willful sin, to use your example, that he is going on a date with the intention of seducing her into fornication, thinking he could just do it and then be forgiven later, he might land himself in trouble with the Lord, and, although it may not cost him his salvation, the Lord may chastise him to impress upon him that he cannot go doing things like that. One way is that the girl may become pregnant and he has to pay child support for the next 18 years, and sometime down the track he might have to explain to his child how he got born. The child may reject him for it. Also it may affect a future marriage with the "right" person.

So, premeditated sin like that involves a price to be paid, and so the Lord may chastise him quite strongly so that his soul may be saved.

But if he didn't premeditate, but through weakness and going too far in the physical encounter and they found themselves not able to resist, then there may be chastisement from the Lord, but not as strong as a premeditated act.

There is not a lot of teaching in our churches about the chastising of the Lord for willful acts of disobedience, but the Scripture does say:

"For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”
If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it" (Hebrews 12:6-11).

These works come as the result of conversion to Christ, not before. A person repents, is baptised, is obedient, etc., because he is saved. An unsaved person cannot do any of these from his heart. He may go through the motions to please those around him, but he is doing them hypocritically unless he comes to Christ, puts his full trust in Him for salvation.

Many church members have done all these things as outward ordinances, but because their hearts remain unchanged toward Christ Himself, and have more interest in the outward forms and ceremonies, than in Christ, they are hypocrites and remain lost sinners.

Read the accounts of Korah, Judas, Ananias and Sapphira, God did more than enough to free them from the captivity of the world, they tasted the goodness of God's word, and the powers of the coming age, yet they fell away.

Again, sins are primarily worldly cravings, wanting to be comfortable, eat juicy cucumbers, get married to the prom king/queen, and God says seek first how to lay down your lives for others, see how He does great works, see how you are used, to bring others out of running after futility like you were brought out, be rewarded with being close to Him, and He will add the necessities of life to you as well, without letting the cares of the world take you away from Him. These cravings are subtle, some even calling them "motivation", acceptable ways of life, forgetting that you can either serve mammon or serve God. Moral sins are a subset of these sins, extreme manifestations.

1 Corinthians 7
32I want you to be free from concerns. An unmarried man is concerned about the things of the Lord, that is, about how he can please the Lord. 33But a married man is concerned about things of this world, that is, about how he can please his wife, 34and so his attention is divided.

An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the affairs of the Lord, so that she may be holy in body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world, that is, about how she can please her husband. 35I’m saying this for your benefit, not to put a noose around your necks, but to promote good order and unhindered devotion to the Lord.
.......

Matthew 19
10His disciples asked him, “If that is the relationship of a man with his wife, it’s not worth getting married!”

11 “Not everyone can accept this saying,” he replied, “except those to whom celibacyi has been granted, 12because some men are celibate from birth,jwhile some are celibate because they have been made that way by others. Still others are celibate because they have made themselves that way for the sake of the kingdom fromk heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.”
........

Psalms 106
11The water overwhelmed their enemies,

so that not one of them survived.d

12Then they believed his word

and sung his praise.

13But they quickly forgot his deeds

and did not wait for his counsel.

14They were overwhelmed with craving in the wilderness,

so God tested them in the wasteland.

15God granted them their request,

but sent leanness into their lives.

Mark 4
18Others are like the seeds sown among the thorns. They hear the word, 19but the cares of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth,and the desire for other things come in and choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20Still others are like the seeds sown on good soil. They hear the word, receive it, and produce a crop—thirtyfold, sixtyfold, or a hundredfold.”

 

[Grip Docility]

I think your blood-sugar is getting low.

 

[Grip Docility]

I don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Grip Docility]

I was talking about scripture in general. But the verse in question was written by John.

Pick any reference to sexual immorality in the New Testament, or any sin listed in the old covenant... mentioned in the New Testament...

Jesus and the Apostles don’t spell sin of the old covenant out to reinstate the old covenant into the new covenant...

The bottom line is, if not for the armor of Jesus Christ... (His imputed Righteousness)... we would be damned!

Christians all struggle with different sins... Paul, John, George And Ringo Peter and James, are all in harmony. I reject modern dispensational understanding because it denies the harmony of the Jewish directed books and the gentile directed books (Read the intros to each epistle... it’s there... spoiler alert... Hebrews was directed towards the Diaspora and Revelation uses Israel’s imagery)....

The fact is, sin is defined by the OLD LAW, and Obedience to God is now defined as LOVE! John 13:34

I’m going to walk the plank here and speak up passionately clearly... Christians aren’t marked by their adhesion to principles of the OLD COVENANT! Christians are marked by LOVE (John 13:35).

Jesus came for Sinners. Paul specifies Jesus died for SINNERS (WHILE they were YET SINNERS)... and this means that the blood is especially effectual towards SINNERS.

You can’t Love a Sinner if you’re busy trying to make them less (SINFUL) (ACCORDING to Moses).

ALL charges of Moses have been CRUCIFIED in Christ’s Flesh! We can’t even LOVE ourselves if we charge sin of Moses to ourselves.

The Holy Spirit... HE is the CONVICTION. That’s HIS J-O-B.

Christians have sex! Unless a person is lobotomized, castrated, over the age of 70 (Sometimes 40)... or sociopathic to the point they have no desire to have sex... they have a sex drive! Christians lie, cheat, screw up and the like! What distinguishes Christians from non Christians is that Christians Love when it hurts, hope when there appears to be no Hope and have Faith in the face of Even... Disaster!

Anyone who has been in pastoral ministry will tell you sincere Christians Make HUGE mistakes!

The whole (The Law of Moses) has the power to rip the Holy Spirit from a Christian gig is a bunch of Hooey!

It’s all about Faith in Christ and the Holy Spirit working to clean the cup from the INSIDE, In God’s Time, not ours.

If Sister or Brother Nosey, Pointing Fingers Desire Sister Hot Stuff to change sooner... guess what... Sister and Brother Nosey, Pointing Finger are worse off than Sister Hot Stuff, because Jesus Saved Sister Hot Stuff’s, While He flat Blasted Brother And Sister Nosey, Pointing Finger!

The New Covenant allows us to walk where Jesus Walked... And that means among Sinners! Not artificial Sinners or Mr. Grew up in church and is “struggling” to not use four letter words Sinners, but real live, mess up big time... really in trouble, miserable, in the throws of Sin, Sinners!

Mega sinners make the best preachers and priests because they know how deeply they need Jesus! As the Holy Spirit convicts and cleans them from the inside, they never forget how deeply Jesus saved them and how deeply Jesus ultimately changed them!

An alcoholic that beat their kids, lost their wife and lived in perpetual stupor that comes out of Alcohol addiction from the natural... (Takes Time!)... Work Of (Romans 8:9) won’t want to fall off the wagon again, because it ruins their Carnal life! If they fell of the wagon, again... All the Sister and Brother Nosey, Pointing Fingers in the world can point away, But that man is still SAVED, and Jesus will pick that man up out of his own Liquor Sick and LOVE that man back to health! When Jesus is done with the man, He’s going to utilize His size 70 X 7 shoe to recalibrate Sister and brother Nosey, Pointing Finger... and I assure you, Brother fell of the Wagon will have had it easier, even if he went Homeless, than Sister and Brother NPF!

Our Job is to LOVE! God’s JOB is to Convict and sanctify over a LIFETIME!

Don’t care about this dudes theology or whatever... he understands the Gospel.

 

[Grip Docility]

These works come as the result of conversion to Christ, not before. A person repents, is baptised, is obedient, etc., because he is saved. An unsaved person cannot do any of these from his heart. He may go through the motions to please those around him, but he is doing them hypocritically unless he comes to Christ, puts his full trust in Him for salvation.

Many church members have done all these things as outward ordinances, but because their hearts remain unchanged toward Christ Himself, and have more interest in the outward forms and ceremonies, than in Christ, they are hypocrites and remain lost sinners.

Spoiler

Yes!!!!

Hebrews 12:1-3. <3

We know the self righteous were those that specifically opposed Christ, so check out the context of Hebrews 12:3.

 

[Grip Docility]

I agree. The Holy Spirit within him would be screaming at him against it. He would have to totally resist the strong prompting of the Holy Spirit to go back and engage in regular willful sin. In the end, continued resistance to the Holy Spirit will grieve Him, and He will depart, leaving the person without protection from even worse sin, and if the person continues in the outward forms of Christianity, he will prove to be nothing more than a hypocrite who is now pretending to be a believer, but his heart has been hardened against Christ. He is then treading the cross underfoot, and it may be very difficult for him to return to true repentance.

I won't hide my thoughts....

The man WILL lose. If the man is Saved and Sealed by faith... the Holy Spirit will hand the man over to Satan, until the man is driven to humility and falls before God as we see with David, all throughout scripture.

Our Heavenly Father has a Heavy Hand, that doesn't beat or bruise, but drives us to repentance. Those who KNOW His shelter, will be driven back to Him by the frost of the enemy. God can use any creatures will to bring about HIS good, without defeating a single Creations freewill. He will not lose a single One that has come to saving faith. Those stupid enough to test this out, know just how far He will go.

God isn't playing with a stacked deck, but is the Mathematical Chess Master. Whatever moves Creation makes, God has creation in "Check" the entire time, and He will have the "Check Mate" on genuine wickedness. Infact, CHECKMATE has been declared and a truce offered! Too bad the wicked are too proud and foolish to accept it. It's a terrible thing when the wicked will realize that Big Bad Leroy Leroy Brown is a Carpenter, born in a manger and Crucified on a cross. Yup.... That's one fight I don't want to pick.

I do not believe the Law of Moses can drive the Spirit of God from a man. When a man of God resists the Holy Spirits conviction, it's like a Chinese finger trap, made of steal. It actually empowers the Holy Spirit to work faster and more effectually, as that mans root of his rebellion will be carved out by circumstances provided by God using the bad for HIS good.

Redemption is the name of the goal, and it is certain. When we do stupid things, the Shepherd doesn't stop Hopeing, Loving or holding to the Faith of His Indwelling Presence.

It is only by relinquishing Faith in God as Salvic, that a man can be lost.

Those foolish enough to attempt to amplify sin in their life while saved, will end up like Jonah... in the belly of the fish. God does enjoy a fine fish sending.

 

[fhansen]

I don't know why we would insist on making righteousness an ugly thing, almost as if faith is somehow separated from it, and/or a license to escape from it. It sort of harkens back to Is 5:20.

Can't God, with His new creations, make them righteous, as He intended them to be? And be pleased with this? No one has to boast about it-that would be unrighteous, in fact.

And there seem to be contradictions here. Some folk are saying that humans cannot possibly be righteous in any way while others are saying that righteousness, i.e. sanctity, is a side benefit of being justified or saved. At least the second group acknowledges that God really can and does effect real change in redeemed man, change that involves a "God-righteousness" as opposed to self-righteousness.

For me the difference is that this sanctification, this "righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith" (Phil 3), is part and parcel of our justification; it's what faith is meant to lead to as we work out our salvation with He who works in us, to paraphrase Phil 2. It's to "invest" the "talents" He gives, with more given as the first gift is increased. It's to finally start becoming who He created man to be.

 

[Grip Docility]

I don't know why we would insist on making righteousness an ugly thing, almost as if faith is somehow separated from it, and/or a license to escape from it. It sort of harkens back to Is 5:20.

Can't God, with His new creations, make them righteous, as He intended them to be? And be pleased with this? No one has to boast about it-that would be unrighteous, in fact.

And there seem to be contradictions here. Some folk are saying that humans cannot possibly be righteous in any way while others are saying that righteousness, i.e. sanctity, is a side benefit of being justified or saved. At least the second group acknowledges that God really can and does effect real change in redeemed man, change that involves a "God-righteousness" as opposed to self-righteousness.

For me the difference is that this sanctification, this "righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith" (Phil 3), is part and parcel of our justification; it's what faith is meant to lead to as we work out our salvation with He who works in us, to paraphrase Phil 2. It's to "invest" the "talents" He gives.

I actually agree with you. The thing that people forget, is that that Righteousness is HIS, alone, and when the Holy Spirit is brought into a Sinner's life that has Saving Faith... that sinner can give God a run for His money, but in matters of shaping the soul... God will win. We zig He zags. When we Zag he Zigs. When we run, He sends a Fish. God is the God Father that genuinely makes an offer we "shouldn't" refuse.

Once a person surrenders to God, and is drawn to saving Faith... they have lost the battle of their will, "Willingly".

It's called "Surrender" for a reason.

God uses whatever circumstance available, that is necessary to bring those that have "Freely Given Him their Lives" to bring them HOME.

 

[fhansen]

I actually agree with you. The thing that people forget, is that that Righteousness is HIS, alone, and when the Holy Spirit is brought into a Sinner's life that has Saving Faith... that sinner can give God a run for His money, but in matters of shaping the soul... God will win. We zig He zags. When we Zag he Zigs. When we run, He sends a Fish. God is the God Father that genuinely makes an offer we "shouldn't" refuse.

Once a person surrenders to God, and is drawn to saving Faith... they have lost the battle of their will, "Willingly".

It's called "Surrender" for a reason.

God uses whatever circumstance available, that is necessary to bring those that have "Freely Given Him their Lives" to bring them HOME.

Except that I'd say it ain't over till the fat lady sings, as the movie line goes. We can't know with certainty whether or not we'll remain surrendered for good, whose will necessarily wins out in the end. That's what makes it a struggle-and a good one.

 

[Grip Docility]

Except that I'd say it ain't over till the fat lady sings, as the movie line goes. We can't know with certainty whether or not we'll remain surrendered for good, whose will necessarily wins out in the end. That's what makes it a struggle-and a good one.

Brother... You’ve surrendered to Him...

I like to quote two poems...

Invictus and our Deepest Fear.

Spoiler

Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds and shall find me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate,
I am the captain of my soul.

I say... I am the Captain of my Soul, that has accepted Him and Surrendered to HIM as my War Admiral.

He wins, every time.

Spoiler

“Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us; it's in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.”

We are surrendered and sealed and zig as we might, He’ll ALWAYS OutZag the Saved and Sealed.

We just let that LIGHT Shine.

Brother, we are IN the HIM, Our Sabbath Rest. Hebrews 4

 

[The Righterzpen]

You've got this backwards: I'm not the one blaming God, I blame humans. But a theology that says humans have no choice in the matter of being evil, and then are held accountable for that evil anyway to the degree of being eternally punished for it, places the real blame squarely on God. That is a confused theology.

Human choice was forfeited by the first human who ate fruit he wasn't suppose to. How is that God's fault?

If you see and understand the helpless state you are in and recognize that God has provided (and executed upon) a way out; would you not rather be grateful to God for the fact that Adam's thievery of your free will, potentially may not ultimately condemn you?

Besides the fact that if you were in Adam's (bare feet); you would have stolen his free will yourself!

Sounds an awful lot like Jacob stealing his brother's (Christ's) birthright.

Anyway, yes, fallen man is described as dead, but also asleep and in need of awakening, wounded and in need of healing, lost and in need of being found. He cannot find himself; he doesn't even know where to look and it can take time before he even realizes he's lost, if he ever does. But he can come to sense that something's lacking-that's the real purpose of this world in fact, where the Master's effectively gone away. And yes, he does still have a trace of that divine spark and if we're willing and honest we can still see it in even the most wounded of us.

And so God uses all this to appeal to us as He calls and draws us. It's a matter of both man's seeking and God's calling, even if, again, the sheep will never find the Shepherd on their own.

You realize you just contradicted yourself here don't you? (Confused theology?)

The Cross is nothing if not an invitation, a blantant demonstration of God's sheer unwillingness to force His will upon man, an offer that we can navigate towards if and when we're willing-or not. If we don't get it by now that God never forces His will upon us we'll remain open to very confused false gospels.

When you're in a pitch black house and been tripping over the furniture your entire life and suddenly someone cuts the lights on suddenly you can see! Does your "free will" say: "Shut the lights off, I'd rather trip around in the dark!"

Once one has felt the goodness of awakening, far from "will" being "forced upon"; will becomes the imputes that chases after He who's awakened you.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Well, cats out of the bag. People think Satan is out... pardon the pun “raising hell”... but the Truth revealed that Satan is the most Self Righteous being... to ever live. The Pharisees and Judas were literal pictures of the Devil’s soldiers and the doctrine of sinless perfection taught and professed was literally labeled “The Leavening”... by Jesus Christ, our Lord, God and Savior.

No false doctrine in scripture, has its own name... coined by God. But, Sinless perfection indeed does.

What did Jesus say on the matter?

John 8:44

I direct this towards no human being, but doctrinally speaking... it is a matter that should always receive immediate attention.

I pray no one sincerely misses that “you shall be like God” and “I will be like the most High”... go hand in hand!

Profound truth here - PREACH IT!

I never realized until you put it this way; that this is absolutely true. The biggest deception of Satan is self righteousness!

Which brings up an interesting question. The absolute degradation we see humans capable of committing. We assume that is also the working of Satan. Now you've got me wondering - Is that true and if it is, how does it apply? Always hear people say: "The Devil made me do it." Well, no the devil didn't make you do it; that was the sin of your own heart!

In this sense, most certainly man and Satan operate willfully on two different planes.

 

[Grip Docility]

Profound truth here - PREACH IT!

I never realized until you put it this way; that this is absolutely true. The biggest deception of Satan is self righteousness!

Which brings up an interesting question. The absolute degradation we see humans capable of committing. We assume that is also the working of Satan. Now you've got me wondering - Is that true and if it is, how does it apply? Always hear people say: "The Devil made me do it." Well, no the devil didn't make you do it; that was the sin of your own heart!

In this sense, most certainly man and Satan operate willfully on two different planes.

Satan started the fire of rebellion and we keep adding fuel to it.

Satan’s rebellion plan was so comprehensive its a top that doesn’t even have to be spun, anymore. IMO

Satan is full time in fighting the Gospel with Anathema messages of all sorts.... within Christianity, world religion and people salted by Anathema Gospels, Salty at Christ for reasons that are false.

Lies are his only weapon.

Human indifference towards other humans and Anathema messages are His present trade.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Brother, I do believe God is working on my heart. I gather you’re a Devine determinist, which I am the utter opposite of and I have found deep joy in your passion for His saving Grace and proclamation of His sufficiency to Save through Grace.

There was a time I would have tripped..., but I can sincerely say I understand and respect your perspective.

I remain opposed to Divine determinism.

I would be interested sometime in hearing your objections to Divine Determinism. I am always curious to hear other perspectives.

I think the confusion here is that there certainly is a very real element of God working "in real time" with "on the fly choices" made by creatures that in His omniscience He's able to "meld" into the "Master Plan"!

Though I agree the outcome was determined from the foundations of the world. I don't see "Divine Determinism" as the "totality of the end game" maybe? Omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence play into a real action drama in real time. How God does that; we may never understand.

But that's why He's God and we're not!