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does this prove God?

MagusAlbertus

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Thomas Aquinas’ logical proof for a first-mover*below* holds not to prove God, but to prove the beginning of existence. Through means of astronomy and astrophysics the general consensus of the scientific community is that Aquinas is right, a first-mover, “big-bang”, started our universe. Though more debated the general consensus amongst scientists is that the universe will come to a similar end, called “the big crunch”. This end can be logical deduced using argument similar to that proving a beginning.



What could have existed just prior to the big-bang? Either an existence greater than the universe we know, which brings us back to our logical proofs of a beginning and end or an infinite temporal void in which no laws of physics or reality apply. From this void there exists the possibility that the universe, without any laws constraining its spontaneous creation, self-created. From this void also exists the possibility that Flying Spaghetti Monster, the eventual planer and initiator of our universe, without any laws constraining His spontaneous creation, self-created.



Self-creating existence ends in a "big-crunch", the eventual return of that existence to its point of origin. The return of existence back to nothing would bring us back to a place ware both Flying Spaghetti Monster and spontaneous-creation are possibilities. No matter how low the possibility is, it must be that a creator will self-create.

Flying Spaghetti Monster would there for exist in a place of rules created entirely of His choice. He would have existed forever, as time would have no meaning in the meaningless nothing. He would be all knowing, as all existence would be from His mind. He could do only what is “good”, as “evil” would be defined as that which He did not will directly to exist. Evil would be possible by giving autonomous decision making abilities, similar to the freewill He has, to any part of her creation and that creation choosing contrary to how Ann would have.

Simply thinking would be the creation process for Flying Spaghetti Monster. In giving humanity free will He would think about how it would proceed from there. He would not eliminate the possibility of evil prior to it’s choice, as this would eliminated the existence of all the creation that came from the continued thinking about those who had chosen evil. Good things would happen to relatively bad people and bad things happen to relatively good people, as eliminating this would eliminate all of creation that came from continued thinking about those to whom this would happen.



1st Argument: from Motion

1. Some things are in motion (as our senses show).

2. Whatever is moved is moved by another. ( Motion is actualization of a potential requiring prior actuality in the mover and unactualized potential in the moved.)

3. This cannot go on to infinity.(because laws of physics mandate that nothing moves itself without an outside action uppon it)

4. So, there must be a first (unmoved) mover.

5. This first mover is Flying Spaghetti Monster.



2nd Argument: from the nature of efficient cause

1. In the world there is an order of efficient causes

2. Nothing is the efficient cause of itself. (Because then it would be "prior to itself.)"

3. This cannot go on to infinity.

4. So, there must be a first mover.

5. This first mover is Flying Spaghetti Monster.

**************

to "say what we think" about TA's first-mover proofs was a philosophy class asignment, do you think i should turn this in?
 

z3ro

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MagusAlbertus said:
1st Argument: from Motion

1. Some things are in motion (as our senses show).

2. Whatever is moved is moved by another. ( Motion is actualization of a potential requiring prior actuality in the mover and unactualized potential in the moved.)

3. This cannot go on to infinity.

4. So, there must be a first (unmoved) mover.

5. This first mover is God.



2nd Argument: from the nature of efficient cause

1. In the world there is an order of efficient causes

2. Nothing is the efficient cause of itself. (Because then it would be "prior to itself.)"

3. This cannot go on to infinity.

4. So, there must be a first mover.

5. This first mover is God.

Except you've forgotten one important point; before the universe began to exist, there was no time. Cause requires time. Therefore, your argument breaks down at the beginning of the universe, because the laws you use no longer apply.
 
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AdamAnderson21

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3. This cannot go on to infinity.

Why not? I would add: 4. Nothing moves itself
What we see in nature is a transfer of energy. Think of it as running an experiment 1 million times and my #4 always holds true. Yours however, has no evidence.
 
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""

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You can place multiple items into #5.

But all of them would be a Creator, wouldn't you agree? If something is set in motion, and in order to be set in motion, and continue in motion, it has to have an umoving mover, then the mover must be the creator of the motion.

The OP is "does this prove God", and the answer is that it proves a Creator exists. True, it doesn't prove the Jewish God or the Christian God (who are both the same) or the Hindu god(s), or the Muslim god, or any other god, but it proves that there was a Creator of the motion.
 
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MagusAlbertus

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Why not? I would add: 4. Nothing moves itself
good point, it's a logical leap that needs to be addressed, thanks for helping strengthen the argument.
peepnklown said:
I would also like to add something. 1st & 2nd Argument: The first mover doesn’t equate God, or the Christian God. You can place multiple items into #5.
In my first incarnation i used "ragity Ann" as my conclusion instead of God, in order to point out this very fact. This ragity ann would be the all-knowing creator of all existence.
That's not a counter-example, i took what they have to say into account...*
Except you've forgotten one important point; before the universe began to exist, there was no time. Cause requires time. Therefore, your argument breaks down at the beginning of the universe, because the laws you use no longer apply.
only argued against TA instead of my argument... i must be having trouble expressing clearly what I've got to say, so here again:

*
From this void there exists the possibility that the universe, without any laws constraining its spontaneous creation, self-created. From this void also exists the possibility that God, the eventual planer and initiator of our universe, without any laws constraining His spontaneous creation, self-created.
I address both possibility's, concluding that
Self-creating existence ends in a "big-crunch", the eventual return of that existence to its point of origin. The return of existence back to nothing would bring us back to a place ware both God and spontaneous-creation are possibilities. No matter how low the possibility is, it must be that a creator will self-create.
which would mean that
He would have existed forever, as time would have no meaning in the meaningless nothing.

hope the clifs that are direct to your question help :)

Keep the arguents coming, hopefully you'll hit on something that i didn't address, or better yet: dis-prove something i did address.
The OP is "does this prove God", and the answer is that it proves a Creator exists. True, it doesn't prove the Jewish God or the Christian God (who are both the same) or the Hindu god(s), or the Muslim god, or any other god, but it proves that there was a Creator of the motion.
Nifty to hear someone else thinks so to! I'm happy to be dis-proved, as that'll just lead me to refine the argument, but i believe that it offers a strong defense and continuation of TAs argument.
 
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.Mikha'el.

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MagusAlbertus said:
Thomas Aquinas’ logical proof for a first-mover*below* holds not to prove God, but to prove the beginning of existence. Through means of astronomy and astrophysics the general consensus of the scientific community is that Aquinas is right, a first-mover, “big-bang”, started our universe. Though more debated the general consensus amongst scientists is that the universe will come to a similar end, called “the big crunch”. This end can be logical deduced using argument similar to that proving a beginning.



What could have existed just prior to the big-bang? Either an existence greater than the universe we know, which brings us back to our logical proofs of a beginning and end or an infinite nothing in which no laws of physics or reality apply. From this void there exists the possibility that the universe, without any laws constraining its spontaneous creation, self-created. From this void also exists the possibility that God, the eventual planer and initiator of our universe, without any laws constraining His spontaneous creation, self-created.



Self-creating existence ends in a "big-crunch", the eventual return of that existence to its point of origin. The return of existence back to nothing would bring us back to a place ware both God and spontaneous-creation are possibilities. No matter how low the possibility is, it must be that a creator will self-create.



God would there for exist in a place of rules created entirely of His choice. He would have existed forever, as time would have no meaning in the meaningless nothing. He would be all knowing, as all existence would be from His mind. He could do only what is “good”, as “evil” would be defined as that which He did not will directly to exist. Evil would be possible by giving autonomous decision making abilities, similar to the freewill He has, to any part of her creation and that creation choosing contrary to how Ann would have.



Simply thinking would be the creation process for God. In giving humanity free will He would think about how it would proceed from there. He would not eliminate the possibility of evil prior to it’s choice, as this would eliminated the existence of all the creation that came from the continued thinking about those who had chosen evil. Good things would happen to relatively bad people and bad things happen to relatively good people, as eliminating this would eliminate all of creation that came from continued thinking about those to whom this would happen.



1st Argument: from Motion

1. Some things are in motion (as our senses show).

2. Whatever is moved is moved by another. ( Motion is actualization of a potential requiring prior actuality in the mover and unactualized potential in the moved.)

3. This cannot go on to infinity.(because laws of physics mandate that nothing moves itself without an outside action uppon it)

4. So, there must be a first (unmoved) mover.

5. This first mover is God.



2nd Argument: from the nature of efficient cause

1. In the world there is an order of efficient causes

2. Nothing is the efficient cause of itself. (Because then it would be "prior to itself.)"

3. This cannot go on to infinity.

4. So, there must be a first mover.

5. This first mover is God.

**************

to "say what we think" about TA's first-mover proofs was a philosophy class asignment, do you think i should turn this in?

This actually came up in my political science class last semester. Our professor wondered if the first mover were a billiard ball, could it be argued that God is a billiard ball? I can remember thinking that if God needed to take the form of a billiard ball in order to be the first mover, so be it.

I think that Aquinas' proofs are sound arguments until he states that "This first mover was God," "This first creator was God," etc. As a Christian, I hold these to be true. But if one does not believe, it could be argued that another object or entity was the first mover.
 
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MagusAlbertus

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MartinM said:
You talked of an infinite void from which the Universe self-creates; that bears no resemblance whatsoever to the model I cited.
from your link:
. Instead, we explore the idea of whether there is anything in the laws of physics that would prevent the Universe from creating itself. Because space times can be curved and multiply connected, general relativity allows for the possibility of closed time like curves
an infinite curve which has no beginning or end, temporally speaking.

sounds like an infinite void to me.
if one does not believe, it could be argued that another object or entity was the first mover.
doesn't the natural tendency for any non-sentient first-mover to return back to the infinite curve mean that, for any existence to truly last, a sentient first mover must self-create?
 
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