God did not create from nothing

[timewerx]

If anyone reads Genesis 1:1 in Hebrew, it is more accurately told that God "fashioned" the heavens and the earth.

This means something already existed before. The "ingredients" are already there because you can't "fashion" something from nothing. The very definition of "fashion" in the context of creation forbids it.

The Bible doesn't give details on what existed prior to the heaves and the earth but it can be anything. A cloud of dust and gas, the quantum fields or space-time fabric itself. So who created these things? Who created the ingredients this world was fashioned from? The Bbile doesn't have an answer.

It gets "worse" in Genesis 1:2 in Hebrew. Because the text is referring to the Earth as a "wasteland". It can only mean the Earth wasn't a wasteland prior to Genesis 1:2 and may have had a thriving, living ecosystem OR there are other places in the universe that is NOT a wasteland (which can also implicate healthy, living alien ecosystems beyond the Solar System).

So if God did not create the ingredients from which God fashioned the heavens and the earth. This leaves a lot to speculation. What if God also spontaneously arose from the same "ingredients" He used to fashion the heaves and the earth? This could support some theories that life/intelligence is simply an emergent property of the universe or even the space-time or quantum fields.

This also implicates that some point in our technological advancement eons from now if our advanced civilization did not collapse and then advanced even further, we'd be able to create worlds from the same ingredients freely available across the Universe at which point, we'd be doing exactly the same act of "creation" that God did in Genesis 1:1. We'd be like God Himself.

The space-time fabric though unseen is just as relevant or even more relevant than the visible Universe. Something that important should have been written in the Bible, but we get no answer.

Jesus may have implicated it but if true that would also imply that His "Father" is not the same God who created the heavens and the Earth in Genesis 1:1. Because the God of Genesis 1:1 only created the visible Universe which only came after the unseen "ingredients" of the Universe. While Father of Jesus is also called the "Lord of the Unseen" as implicated by some of the teachings of Jesus.

These are all speculation. However, one thing is not, God did not create the heavens and the Earth from nothing. Something already existed before and we're not told who created what existed before.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

These are all speculation. However, one thing is not, God did not create the heavens and the Earth from nothing. Something already existed before and we're not told who created what existed before.

The idea that the elements already existed, ex- materia, assumes the Creator is just a craftsman working with found materials, but that contradicts the very nature of being the Alpha, ex-nihilo. If the building blocks of the universe were already there, then those elements would be just as eternal as God, and He wouldn't truly be the beginning of all things. Hebrews 11:3 explicitly says that "the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible," which tells us that the physical world didn't come from pre-existing matter. Instead of just reshaping old stuff that was already lying around, the Creator brought the very atoms and energy into existence out of nothing by His word alone.

Blessings

 

[Tinker Grey]

This thread might do better in the Christians Only section.

 

[timewerx]

This thread might do better in the Christians Only section.

Unfortunately, I'm not allowed to post in Christians Only section.

I'm also trying to see things in scientific perspective as well. Incredibly, the Torah by itself does not explicitly say nothing came before God nor that God created things from nothing.

Certain things seem to line up with quantum physics, the visible created from the invisible. Invisible does not equate to nothing.

The writings that say God created "absolutely everything" came much much later or became teachings or belief much much later. To me that's a problem.

However, focusing on the original writings - the Torah, it does not deny the possibility that God could have spontaneously emerged within a primordial universe, a concept more agreeable to science.

 

[timewerx]

The idea that the elements already existed, ex- materia, assumes the Creator is just a craftsman working with found materials, but that contradicts the very nature of being the Alpha, ex-nihilo. If the building blocks of the universe were already there, then those elements would be just as eternal as God, and He wouldn't truly be the beginning of all things. Hebrews 11:3 explicitly says that "the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible," which tells us that the physical world didn't come from pre-existing matter. Instead of just reshaping old stuff that was already lying around, the Creator brought the very atoms and energy into existence out of nothing by His word alone.

Blessings

Who made the things that are not visible?

We now know through Quantum Physics these things are very real and are not "nothing" but something real and tangible. The fact that computers work, we have internet is making these "invisible entities" work for us with engineered precision.

The idea that God created absolutely everything were much much later teachings and not part of the original scriptures the Torah.

That is a matter of concern as well especially when even Jesus talked about "exceeding the righteousness of the scribes". If scribes are not as righteous and we see beliefs and faiths undergoing dramatic evolution within the Bible itself, it might be symptoms of a problem.

 

[Ophiolite]

If scribes are not as righteous and we see beliefs and faiths undergoing dramatic evolution within the Bible itself, it might be symptoms of a problem.

The problem might best be explained by stating what forum rules prohibit me from saying, so I leave that as an exercise for the student.

 

[NBB]

Hebrews 11:3
"3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible."

 

[NBB]

God has the power to do this, and he is a very kind Father, that also pay attention to us, who wants to bring you a bright future, that is enough to cure anyone depression.

 

[timewerx]

The problem might best be explained by stating what forum rules prohibit me from saying, so I leave that as an exercise for the student.

I assume the exercise at discerning what could be substantiated with tangible and fair measures without prejudice nor biases. A task not fit for the religious, nor a believer of any faiths, nor atheist, nor AI (AI is still trained on people and will have the default bias of the majority).

 

[Ophiolite]

I assume the exercise at discerning what could be substantiated with tangible and fair measures without prejudice nor biases. A task not fit for the religious, nor a believer of any faiths, nor atheist, nor AI (AI is still trained on people and will have the default bias of the majority).

I'm reasonably sure that you didn't understand what I meant. I am much more confident that I didn't understand what you meant. That makes our exchange an excellent case study of normal human communication. We should both be very proud to have contributed.

 

[timewerx]

Hebrews 11:3
"3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible."

Still does not say *who* made what is not visible.

In fact, Hebrews 11:3 confirms Genesis 1:1 that God merely "fashioned" the Universe from a previous state of existence which already consists of something although not visible.

 

[timewerx]

I'm reasonably sure that you didn't understand what I meant. I am much more confident that I didn't understand what you meant. That makes our exchange an excellent case study of normal human communication. We should both be very proud to have contributed.

I agree. Sadly, it has disturbing implications on all belief systems based on how easily distorted our own perceptions are.

 

[NBB]

Still does not say *who* made what is not visible.

In fact, Hebrews 11:3 confirms Genesis 1:1 that God merely "fashioned" the Universe from a previous state of existence which already consists of something although not visible.

I understand that if it was not visible is because it didn't existed.

 

[timewerx]

I understand that if it was not visible is because it didn't existed.

The Greek φαίνω phainó "visible" have nothing to do with existence.

It's whether something can be seen directly ie "visible to the naked eye", not behind something, or near enough to be seen, or revealed by light.

Strong's Greek: 5316. φαίνω (phainó) -- To appear, to shine, to become visible, to be evident

 

[Oompa Loompa]

If anyone reads Genesis 1:1 in Hebrew, it is more accurately told that God "fashioned" the heavens and the earth.

The entire premise of your discussion is factually incorrect. The word that you claim means "fashioned" is the word ברא (bara) and has only been used in the old testament in the contextual range as "to create," "to be created," to make (cause)," "Creator God," or "to do (act)." This was the same word used in Gen 1:21, 27, 2:3, 5:1-2, 6:7, Deuteronomy 4:32, Psalm 51:10, 89:47, Isiah 41:20, 42:5, 43:1, 7, 15, 45:7, 12, 18, and 54:16. So I do not know what source you are using that convinced you that somehow the word is "more accurately" means "fashioned," but I assuredly can tell you that is is wrong. Therefore the entire premise of your argument is false. Respectfully.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

The entire premise of your discussion is factually incorrect. The word that you claim means "fashioned" is the word ברא (bara) and has only been used in the old testament in the contextual range as "to create," "to be created," to make (cause)," "Creator God," or "to do (act)." This was the same word used in Gen 1:21, 27, 2:3, 5:1-2, 6:7, Deuteronomy 4:32, Psalm 51:10, 89:47, Isiah 41:20, 42:5, 43:1, 7, 15, 45:7, 12, 18, and 54:16. So I do not know what source you are using that convinced you that somehow the word is "more accurately" means "fashioned," but I assuredly can tell you that is is wrong. Therefore the entire premise of your argument is false. Respectfully.

“Created” (bārāʾ) is used in the Old Testament consistently in reference to a new activity. It forms a sound play with the previous “in the beginning,” where the three initial letters are the same: brʾšyt brʾ. It occurs in the creation account six times (1:1, 21, 27 [3x]; 2:3; cf. also 2:4a). The etymology of the term is disputed and is of little help, but its frequent appearance in the Old Testament enables us to define its meaning with some security.55 The striking feature of the word is that its subject is always God. It therefore conveys the idea of a special activity accomplished only by deity that results in newness or a renewing. Also bārāʾ always refers to the product created and does not refer to the material of which it is made. For these reasons commentators have traditionally interpreted the verb as a technical term for creatio ex nihilo (“creation out of nothing”). In doing so, it is often contrasted with the verb ʿāśâ, meaning “to make” or “do,” which may have as its subject human activity (as well as divine). In particular ʿāśâ is used where “making” involves existing material. As the argument goes, ʿāśâ can refer to human activity in which preexisting material is transformed, but bārāʾ is used exclusively of God’s activity with no presence of preexisting material.
“Create,” however, does not necessarily mean an altogether new thing. For example, Ps 51:10a [12a] reads, “Create [bārāʾ] within me a new heart”; this line parallels “renew [ḥādaš] within me an upright spirit” (v. 10b), indicating here that “create” has the nuance of restoration. David was asking for a transformation, not a new entity. Isaiah 57:19 speaks of God “creating praise on the lips of the mourners.” The context of the passage involves restoration of his wayward people in which he will “heal” and “restore” (“repay,” NRSV). The sense of bārāʾ in the context of Isaiah 57 indicates that God will renew again the lips of Israel’s mourners where there once was praise.
More importantly, in the context of the creation account itself “create” and “make” are used interchangeably for the creation of human life (vv. 26–27; cp. 2:7; 5:1). In the heading of the following tôlĕdôt section (2:4), “created” and “made” occur in matching temporal clauses. The term ʿāśâ at 2:3 is used to elucidate the meaning of bārāʾ: “which God created by doing [ʿāśâ].” By itself ʿāśâ occurs in 1:7, 16, 25, where it indicates God uniquely accomplished his creative task. If bārāʾ were a technical term among the Hebrews for creatio ex nihilo, in distinction from human endeavor, we would expect it to dominate the creation narrative. However, it is used sparingly in the account and is reserved for highlighting significant aspects of the creation where the blessing of procreation is bestowed on the first animate life (1:21–22) and supreme animate life (1:27–28). If the doctrine of creatio ex nihilo is expounded here, it must be from the tenor of the text and not from this single lexical term. Elsewhere in the narrative it is apparent that God created ex nihilo (e.g., 1:3).
While we disagree that “create” is a technical term for fiat creation, it is clear that bārāʾ, with God exclusively as its subject, indicates special significance for God as autonomous Creator. The term maintains our focus on the thematic subject of God, who alone can accomplish creation. The declaration of v. 1 without any intimation of competing preexisting matter is so distinctive from its ancient counterparts that we must infer that all things have their ultimate origin in God as Creator.
“Created” is found most often in Isaiah (twenty times in chaps. 40–66), where the prophet distinguishes Israel’s God as Creator and true Lord of history. In the context of Babylon’s religious practices of astrology and idolatry (e.g., Isa 40:26), Isaiah celebrated Yahweh as Creator who acts in history, creating Israel for himself (e.g., 42:5; 43:1, 7, 15) and accomplishing a “new thing” by delivering his people (43:15–19; 48:6–8). God then begins history at creation but continues to “create” history through his sovereign lordship among the nations. Since God is Creator of all that exists, he is antecedent to it, distinct from it, while yet intimately involved with it. According to ancient Near Eastern lore, gods abounded in heaven, and deities were the forces of land and sea. The ancient myths did not adequately distinguish between the creator and the creature, but Israel declares that the universe is no more than a creature. In Israel’s view there was no divine heaven or earth.64 It was this view that freed the heavens and the earth from superstition and provided an ideological basis for the emergence of modern science.
The expression “the heavens and the earth” indicates the totality of the universe (see the excursus “Translating 1:1–2,” page. 137).


K. A. Mathews, Genesis 1-11:26, vol. 1A, The New American Commentary (Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 1996), 128–129.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

The idea that the elements already existed, ex- materia, assumes the Creator is just a craftsman working with found materials, but that contradicts the very nature of being the Alpha, ex-nihilo. If the building blocks of the universe were already there, then those elements would be just as eternal as God, and He wouldn't truly be the beginning of all things. Hebrews 11:3 explicitly says that "the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible," which tells us that the physical world didn't come from pre-existing matter. Instead of just reshaping old stuff that was already lying around, the Creator brought the very atoms and energy into existence out of nothing by His word alone.

Blessings

Agreed.

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Colossians 1:15-16

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Unfortunately, I'm not allowed to post in Christians Only section.

I'm also trying to see things in scientific perspective as well. Incredibly, the Torah by itself does not explicitly say nothing came before God nor that God created things from nothing.

Certain things seem to line up with quantum physics, the visible created from the invisible. Invisible does not equate to nothing.

The writings that say God created "absolutely everything" came much much later or became teachings or belief much much later. To me that's a problem.

However, focusing on the original writings - the Torah, it does not deny the possibility that God could have spontaneously emerged within a primordial universe, a concept more agreeable to science.

Understandable. There use to be an apologetics section that I think has been closed. So unfortunately, this may be the only place where non-Christians can ask these deep questions. As long as your questions are genuine and an attempt to seek understanding, rather than just to argue "gotchas" from the Skeptics Annotated Bible, you should be fine.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Who made the things that are not visible?

15 The Son [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. Colossians 1:15-16.

 

[timewerx]

15 The Son [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. Colossians 1:15-16.

I think this is the closest verse saying that God also created the "invisible elements".

However, Colossians 1:16 may not be referring to "invisible" as hidden matter (nor particles) from which the visible universe is created from.

ἀόρατος or aoratos (invisible) is used elsewhere in the Bible in reference to God or Christ's invisible attributes which are most likely spiritual in nature and not a hidden nor invisible physical things like particles and energy. The spiritual reality which God clearly created as well.

Strong's Greek: 517. ἀόρατος (aoratos) -- Invisible

Also, not everything came from God:

1 John 2:16
For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world.

That's the system man built on top of God's creations and is typically defunct, corrupt, and stained by injustice.