Does the Thief on the Cross bypass the Invesigative Judgement..

[EastCoastRemnant]

It was his proofs I was referring to. The ones folks supported before. But now they only support one of the several he used. I tell you what. I will post his proofs for around about 1843 and you tell me which ones you still agree with. We can make a new thread if you like.

Now before you answer consider whether you will actually do it or not.

Do you agree to that discussion?

(By the way, I like Miller. I think he was honestly convinced. And when it was wrong he admitted he was wrong.)

I am not that well versed in his 'proofs' other than the ones already presented by DL and others which you reject, so it seems a fools game to try and debate it with you.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I want Adventists to do what they claim--go by the Bible for their teachings.

Do you claim the same for other denominations... are you in the Baptist or other protestant denom rooms asking them to Biblically support their concepts of the state of the dead, hell, and the rapture myth? How about the Catholics, are you altruistically helping them out with there lack of sola scriptura?

 

[tall73]

Do you claim the same for other denominations... are you in the Baptist or other protestant denom rooms asking them to Biblically support their concepts of the state of the dead, hell, and the rapture myth? How about the Catholics, are you altruistically helping them out with there lack of sola scriptura?

Actually I have discussed in the EO forum on that topic. And I have discussed in the MJ one.

Baptists? I went there a few times but was pretty boring actually. Same with non-denominational, etc. Went to Catholic forum a few times, but most of the good tradition topics happen in GT. It is one of the main topics there.

I debate in GT some, and used to quite a lot. But I know the folks here and have a burden for this topic. Lucky you

 

[tall73]

I am not that well versed in his 'proofs' other than the ones already presented by DL and others which you reject, so it seems a fools game to try and debate it with you.

Well if you want a list I can provide it. However, I seriously doubt you are going to want to defend very many of them. They are quite strange.

 

[JohnMarsten]

As far as Miller is concerned (remember the guy was a mason) I think that one has to look at all the circumstances to put the pieces of the puzzle together...

First he completely disregaded bible prophecy, he came up with a number of 2300 days (evenings and mornings that is) and claimed to know the exact date of the 2nd coming.

My objection here is that people who were living back in the day might have actually heard that nobody know the day nor the hour and stuff. So how were they supposed to follow this man? Biblically? definitely not

Besides this text they might have actually read a little bit more into the topic and checked revelation and even what Jesus was saying in the gospels, many of them must have had some serious objections and besides books were written to disprove Miller.

So based on the bible there was no necessity to follow Miller and after the disappointment people set up their own group and called those who didnt follow Miller Babylon, and this is what I cannot swallow.

So imagine this Harold Camping guy would come along and claim everyone is going to hell who didnt join me before my last date setting...

Yup, you would call him foolish to say the least I guess...

 

[JohnMarsten]

in regard to miller I have found two books

Miller Overthrown: Or the False Prophet Confounded

An Exposition of the Prophecies Supposed by William Miller to Predict the Second Coming of Christ in 1843

I havent really read them so I dont know what they prove/disprove...

 

[tall73]

in regard to miller I have found two books

Miller Overthrown: Or the False Prophet Confounded

An Exposition of the Prophecies Supposed by William Miller to Predict the Second Coming of Christ in 1843

I havent really read them so I dont know what they prove/disprove...

Those are responses to Miller from his own time. In fairness you may want to read material from Miller himself as well.

Here are some discussions on the topic from this forum:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7406898/ This one links to some of Miller and his movement's writings.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7407543/ This one discusses Ellen White's endorsement of his message.

 

[tall73]

Here are a couple of Miller's proofs:

Proof 1:

I. I prove it by the time given by Moses, in the 26th chapter of Leviticus, being seven times that the people of God are to be in bondage to the kingdoms of this world; or in Babylon, literal and mystical; which seven times cannot be understood less than seven times 360 revolutions of earth in its orbit, making 2520 years. I believe this began according to Jeremiah xv. 4, "And I will cause them to be removed into all kingdoms of the earth, because of Manasseh, the son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, for that which he did in Jerusalem," and Isa. vii. 8, "For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Resin: and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people,"—when Manasseh was carried captive to Babylon, and Israel was no more a nation,—see chronology, 2 Chron. xxxiii. 9, "So Manasseh made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to err, and to do worse than the heathen, whom the Lord had destroyed before the children of Israel,"—the 677th year B. C. Then take 677 out of 2520, leaves A. D. 1843, when the punishment of the people of God will end. (See Miller's Lectures, p. 251.)

Proof 6:

VI. I prove it by Hosea vi. 1‑3: "Come, and let us return unto the Lord; for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord; his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth." This prophecy is the two days of the Roman kingdom, in its Imperial, Kingly, and Papal form, with its great iron teeth, tearing and persecuting the people of God; the third day is the same as Rev. xx. 6: "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years;" when the people of God will live in his sight, "live and reign with him a thousand years." If, then, the third day is a thousand years, then the two days are of equal length. When did the two days begin? Ans. When the Jews made a league with the Romans, See Hosea v. 13: "When Ephraim saw his sickness, and Judah saw his wound, then went Ephraim to the Assyrian, and sent king Jareb: yet could he not heal you, nor cure you your wound." Dan. xi. 23: "And after the league made with him, he shall work deceitfully; for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people." I Macabees, 8th and 9th chapters. This league was confirmed and ratified, and the Grecian kingdom to rule over god's people B. C. 158 years. Then add 158 to 1842, and we have 2000 years, or two days; as Peter says, 2 Pet iii. 8; "But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." And 1843 is the first year in the third thousand years, or third day of the Lord. The world has stood still since the fall of man 2000 years under the Patriarchs; 2000 years under the Assyrian. Baby-
lonian, Medo-Persian, and Grecian; and 2000 years under Rome Pagan, Papal and Kingly. (See Sec. Adv. Lib. No. 3, p. 45.)

 

[JohnMarsten]

Those are responses to Miller from his own time. In fairness you may want to read material from Miller himself as well.

Here are some discussions on the topic from this forum:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7406898/ This one links to some of Miller and his movement's writings.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7407543/ This one discusses Ellen White's endorsement of his message.

THanks Tall...

the whole thing seems to be like a mind game... no matter what you come up with, nobody is gonna believe it

remember Stryder? how unable he was to accept a plain bible teaching? how unable he was to realize there is an error in EGWs writing?

Now, where do you think this comes from?

 

[Amisk]

I dont really believe in the investigative judgment.

Biblically speaking revelation tells us that even before the foundation of the world, the book of life was and the names were already written down... so Jesus knew at the time of the crucifiction about the thiefs final destination and besides God has given everything to Him so He can decide to save whoever He wants I guess...

The investigative judgment never seemed biblical to me, in effect it doesnt change anything at all, I guess its purpose is to cause doubt in ones salvation...

I don't understand what was meant by "investigative judgment".
Secondly where in scripture does it say that "even before the foundation of the world, the book of life was and the names were already written down..."
Just wondering!

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Here are a couple of Miller's proofs:

Proof 1:

I. I prove it by the time given by Moses, in the 26th chapter of Leviticus, being seven times that the people of God are to be in bondage to the kingdoms of this world; or in Babylon, literal and mystical; which seven times cannot be understood less than seven times 360 revolutions of earth in its orbit, making 2520 years. I believe this began according to Jeremiah xv. 4, "And I will cause them to be removed into all kingdoms of the earth, because of Manasseh, the son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, for that which he did in Jerusalem," and Isa. vii. 8, "For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Resin: and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people,"—when Manasseh was carried captive to Babylon, and Israel was no more a nation,—see chronology, 2 Chron. xxxiii. 9, "So Manasseh made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to err, and to do worse than the heathen, whom the Lord had destroyed before the children of Israel,"—the 677th year B. C. Then take 677 out of 2520, leaves A. D. 1843, when the punishment of the people of God will end. (See Miller's Lectures, p. 251.)

Proof 6:

VI. I prove it by Hosea vi. 1‑3: "Come, and let us return unto the Lord; for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord; his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth." This prophecy is the two days of the Roman kingdom, in its Imperial, Kingly, and Papal form, with its great iron teeth, tearing and persecuting the people of God; the third day is the same as Rev. xx. 6: "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years;" when the people of God will live in his sight, "live and reign with him a thousand years." If, then, the third day is a thousand years, then the two days are of equal length. When did the two days begin? Ans. When the Jews made a league with the Romans, See Hosea v. 13: "When Ephraim saw his sickness, and Judah saw his wound, then went Ephraim to the Assyrian, and sent king Jareb: yet could he not heal you, nor cure you your wound." Dan. xi. 23: "And after the league made with him, he shall work deceitfully; for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people." I Macabees, 8th and 9th chapters. This league was confirmed and ratified, and the Grecian kingdom to rule over god's people B. C. 158 years. Then add 158 to 1842, and we have 2000 years, or two days; as Peter says, 2 Pet iii. 8; "But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." And 1843 is the first year in the third thousand years, or third day of the Lord. The world has stood still since the fall of man 2000 years under the Patriarchs; 2000 years under the Assyrian. Baby-
lonian, Medo-Persian, and Grecian; and 2000 years under Rome Pagan, Papal and Kingly. (See Sec. Adv. Lib. No. 3, p. 45.)

Well, proof one was included on the charts produced in 1843 and again in 1850 and was endorsed by sister White. There is alot of Biblical evidense for the 2520... you might want to check out the Seven Thunders group for their exhaustive and ongoing study into this.

The second 'proof' was not on the charts used by all the Millerite movement preachers so I don't know how long or with what conviction he had about it. To me, if it didn't make it onto the charts, then he was convicted that it wasn't valid by 1843, probably sooner.

 

[JohnMarsten]

I dont really believe in the investigative judgment.

Biblically speaking revelation tells us that even before the foundation of the world, the book of life was and the names were already written down... so Jesus knew at the time of the crucifiction about the thiefs final destination and besides God has given everything to Him so He can decide to save whoever He wants I guess...

The investigative judgment never seemed biblical to me, in effect it doesnt change anything at all, I guess its purpose is to cause doubt in ones salvation...

I don't understand what was meant by "investigative judgment".
Secondly where in scripture does it say that "even before the foundation of the world, the book of life was and the names were already written down..."
Just wondering!

revelation


Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[tall73]

Well, proof one was included on the charts produced in 1843 and again in 1850 and was endorsed by sister White. There is alot of Biblical evidense for the 2520... you might want to check out the Seven Thunders group for their exhaustive and ongoing study into this.

I mean this in all seriousness.

You do realize that Jesus did not come in 1843, correct?




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[tall73]

The second 'proof' was not on the charts used by all the Millerite movement preachers so I don't know how long or with what conviction he had about it. To me, if it didn't make it onto the charts, then he was convicted that it wasn't valid by 1843, probably sooner.

Sufficiently often that the editor of the Midnight Cry periodical reprinted it along with the other proofs as one of the proofs used by Miller in a synopsis of his views.


This was published in a book in 1844, Religious Demonimations At Present Existing in the United States.

You can read the volume here:

An original history of the religious denominations at present existing in ... - Google Books

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I mean this in all seriousness.

You do realize that Jesus did not come in 1843, correct?




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You have heard of the little book eaten, sweet in the mouth bitter in the belly, right? Of course you have...

 

[Amisk]

I dont really believe in the investigative judgment.

Biblically speaking revelation tells us that even before the foundation of the world, the book of life was and the names were already written down... so Jesus knew at the time of the crucifiction about the thiefs final destination and besides God has given everything to Him so He can decide to save whoever He wants I guess...

The investigative judgment never seemed biblical to me, in effect it doesnt change anything at all, I guess its purpose is to cause doubt in ones salvation...

revelation


Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Okay, I think I see the tiny part of the verse that you are basing the comment [COLOR="Cyan[U][COLOR="Blue"]"]".....everyone whose name is not written[d] from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered...." [/COLOR][/U][/COLOR]Rev. 13:8 Lexham English Bible (although the rest of the verse is speaking of devil.)

"investigative judgment" I had hoped you would define the term, even if it is not scriptural.

 

[tall73]

You have heard of the little book eaten, sweet in the mouth bitter in the belly, right? Of course you have...

I have heard of it!

However,

a. you haven't demonstrated that it was talking about the Adventist experience from the text.

b. His proof was wrong.

being seven times that the people of God are to be in bondage to the kingdoms of this world; or in Babylon, literal and mystical;

Or do you hold that the kingdoms of this world ended in 1843?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I have heard of it!

However,

a. you haven't demonstrated that it was talking about the Adventist experience from the text.

b. His proof was wrong.

being seven times that the people of God are to be in bondage to the kingdoms of this world; or in Babylon, literal and mystical;

Or do you hold that the kingdoms of this world ended in 1843?

Unless you watch some of the Seven Thunders presentations, you will not understand the verse. In a very condensed nutshell, the curse spoken of against God's people began with the 10 tribes being taken ito captivity in 723BC. Thus the persecution began... 2520 years later, in 1798, the curse was ended and the persecution ended as supported by Rev.

The remaining two tribes of Judah were taken into captivity in 677 BC which signalled the final scattering of God's people... 2520 years later, in 1844, God's people were again gathered, consecrated with the cleansing of the sanctuary on the anti typical day of Atonement.

There is much, much more supporting evidense of this, both Biblical and SOP. Here's an interesting fact, the persecution of God's people was equally divided between paganisn and papalism, 1260 years each.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Or do you hold that the kingdoms of this world ended in 1843?

You may dismiss it as reverse calculations, but the years 1843 and 1844 had significant meaning and an end of many prophesy's... the 2520, the 2300, the 1260, the 1290. This ended the 'time of the gentiles' as God covenanted with His people in the end time movement to carry the final message forth to usher the return of Christ.

 

[OntheDL]

My point was that in Daniel 7 the judgment includes nations such as the Medes, Babylonians etc., which were never professed people of God. Therefore, this cannot be the Adventist IJ.

Daniel 7 does not say judgment was for people such as Medes, Babylonians, Greeks...

It parallels Daniel 2 to show the progression of history and where the little horn power derives its character and attributes from Babylon, Greece and Rome.