Does the Thief on the Cross bypass the Invesigative Judgement..

[reddogs]

as since the Thief was given the promise that he would be in paradise by Christ himself.....give your answer and I will be back later...

 

[JohnMarsten]

I dont really believe in the investigative judgment.

Biblically speaking revelation tells us that even before the foundation of the world, the book of life was and the names were already written down... so Jesus knew at the time of the crucifiction about the thiefs final destination and besides God has given everything to Him so He can decide to save whoever He wants I guess...

The investigative judgment never seemed biblical to me, in effect it doesnt change anything at all, I guess its purpose is to cause doubt in ones salvation...

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

The idea of coming before the judgement throne is not an uinusually concept in Chritianisty, the difference, is when it will take place. Most beieve it will happen individually when we die... but this idea ignores the Bibles stand on events after death. We do know that when Jesus comes again He brings His reward with Him so the judgement of the righteous would have already been done.

As far as the thief goes, when he accepted Jesus as his Saviour, all his previous sins were forgiven... we know he died shortly thereafter so I doubt he had much opportunity to sin again, especially having the wonderful glow of peace that would have come over him knowing he was forgiven. When his name came up in judgement, there would have been nothing against it..

 

[Cribstyl]

The idea of coming before the judgement throne is not an uinusually concept in Chritianisty, the difference, is when it will take place. Most beieve it will happen individually when we die... but this idea ignores the Bibles stand on events after death.

We do know that when Jesus comes again He brings His reward with Him so the judgement of the righteous would have already been done.

This is falsely reasoned and it even contradicts your doctrine of the dead. When are the righteous judged if they're dead and unable to answer until the final resurrection of the dead? (I expect you to ignor this, we'll see)

As far as the thief goes, when he accepted Jesus as his Saviour, all his previous sins were forgiven... we know he died shortly thereafter so I doubt he had much opportunity to sin again, especially having the wonderful glow of peace that would have come over him knowing he was forgiven. When his name came up in judgement, there would have been nothing against it.. .

Tell us why his lifetime of crime and sins wont be in the IJ review along with the whole world?

Is He the only forgiven sinner that wont have his sin history on review? (I expect you to ignor or asks questions to seem too knowleable to give a reasonable response.)

 

[phoenixdem]

The righteous will not be judged for salvation, only for rewards. When the Judgement Day comes, it will only be the lost who are finally judged and they will also receive their rewards along with the Anti-Christ and his henchmen.

 

[OntheDL]

The righteous will not be judged for salvation, only for rewards. When the Judgement Day comes, it will only be the lost who are finally judged and they will also receive their rewards along with the Anti-Christ and his henchmen.

Where does the bible say "The righteous will not be judged for salvation, only for rewards"?

 

[JohnMarsten]

Where does the bible say "The righteous will not be judged for salvation, only for rewards"?

The bible says some people will not be judged and others are judged already...

 

[OntheDL]

The bible says some people will not be judged and others are judged already...

Can you provide those quotes?

 

[phoenixdem]

Where does the bible say "The righteous will not be judged for salvation, only for rewards"?

<DIV class=itemhead>Will Christians Be Judged?

11Jan08

 

[reddogs]

as since the Thief was given the promise that he would be in paradise by Christ himself.....give your answer and I will be back later...

Here is a explanation that I can across that is really good.....

'"Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 10:32

The thief on the cross did this.

"And straightway he preached Christ...that he is the Son of God." Acts 9:20 (speaking of Paul, right after he had his sight restored)

The thief on the cross did this.

"But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved" Acts 15:11

The thief on the cross did this (believed in Jesus).

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" Ephesians 2:8

The thief did this (he acted on his faith & accepted the gift).

The IJ will show that the thief on the cross had fruit. '

 

[JohnMarsten]

Can you provide those quotes?

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:18

 

[reddogs]

Here is a explanation that I can across that is really good.....

'"Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 10:32

The thief on the cross did this.

"And straightway he preached Christ...that he is the Son of God." Acts 9:20 (speaking of Paul, right after he had his sight restored)

The thief on the cross did this.

"But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved" Acts 15:11

The thief on the cross did this (believed in Jesus).

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" Ephesians 2:8

The thief did this (he acted on his faith & accepted the gift).

The IJ will show that the thief on the cross had fruit. '

So the IJ is so everyones record can be put in the books and judged by God, and I dare say used for eternity and all the universe can see that God was just in what he did...

 

[Cribstyl]

Here is a explanation that I can across that is really good.....

'"Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 10:32

The thief on the cross did this.

"And straightway he preached Christ...that he is the Son of God." Acts 9:20 (speaking of Paul, right after he had his sight restored)

The thief on the cross did this.

"But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved" Acts 15:11

The thief on the cross did this (believed in Jesus).

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" Ephesians 2:8

The thief did this (he acted on his faith & accepted the gift).

The IJ will show that the thief on the cross had fruit. '

Really??? odd peices works well together when knitting a sweater, but those text does not fit in establish that teaching.

 

[rainbowinthesky]

I agree with those who stated that when his name came up in the investigative judgment of the dead, after Jesus entered the Most Holy Place on the 22nd of October, 1844, he passed its scrutiny since all his sins had been sent beforehand to judgment. He died a forgiven man. Therefore the IJ could not show any unconfessed sin.

sky

 

[reddogs]

Really??? odd peices works well together when knitting a sweater, but those text does not fit in establish that teaching.

Faith can be shown in a instant as well as a lifetime and God accepts it as he pleases, the Bible is very clear on that, so nothing odd about it.....

 

[Cribstyl]

I agree with those who stated that when his name came up in the investigative judgment of the dead, after Jesus entered the Most Holy Place on the 22nd of October, 1844, he passed its scrutiny since all his sins had been sent beforehand to judgment. He died a forgiven man. Therefore the IJ could not show any unconfessed sin.

sky

It seem clear that the question is whether the thief would bypass the judgment altogether. The question is not that he would somehow get a clean record at his day of judgment.

ECR said in post#3 ...... the judgement of the righteous would have already been done.
(he's ducking further questions)

reddogs checklist conclude .....The IJ will show that the thief on the cross had fruit. '




What I would like to know is, since judgment has been going on for 160yrs, where are those who have been judged since 1844?

 

[Cribstyl]

Faith can be shown in a instant as well as a lifetime and God accepts it as he pleases, the Bible is very clear on that, so nothing odd about it.....

Really? it's been 160yrs..

I do remember reading somewhere that; every iddle words.......

 

[tall73]

The idea of coming before the judgement throne is not an uinusually concept in Chritianisty, the difference, is when it will take place. Most beieve it will happen individually when we die... but this idea ignores the Bibles stand on events after death. We do know that when Jesus comes again He brings His reward with Him so the judgement of the righteous would have already been done.

I don't think it is possible to rule out a judgment before Jesus coming. On the other hand I don't see the specific IJ of Adventist doctrine spelled out in Scripture. The following elements are part of that IJ:

a. Beginning in 1844
b. only on the professed people of God
c. in fulfillment of the Day of Atonement cleansing.

I have found no scripture that has all those elements.


Nor do you need a judgment for Jesus to bring his reward.


John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

Jesus already knows His own.

For that matter, if you posit a judgment, why would it only be on the righteous? The IJ of Adventist doctrine is to be on the professed people of God. But wouldn't the profession be the first thing that needs evidence?

If the onlooking universe can't trust God to save those who have truly believed without evidence, why wouldn't they also need evidence for EVERY person regarding who is a professed believer in the first place?

Now, we do agree, there will be a judgment. If anything we ought to look at the plain texts in the Bible that spell out judgement being in the presence of God.


Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.


We stand before the judgment seat. We bow the knee and confess. We give an account to God.

That is not describing the Adventist IJ. In the Adventist IJ we are not present and do not know when our name comes up. Therefore we are not standing before the judgment seat, nor bowing the knee, nor giving an account.

Notice also that there is no reason for the onlooking universe to be convinced by a prolonged IJ to ferret out the issues. All will confess to God.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

We must APPEAR before the judgment seat, and then we receive what is due.

It is at Jesus' coming that things of the heart are revealed. That is the time when things will be judged.

1Co 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

The hidden things are brought to light at Jesus' coming. It is then that all acknowledge Him. There is no need for a the prolonged posited Adventist IJ. Each person is convinced of their ungodly deeds:

Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


These are definite texts indicating that the hearts of men will be revealed by judgment before God at His coming. So either way, God being vindicated is not an issue.

in these texts the people are present, they give an account, they confess. Those things do not happen at the IJ.

So if there is one it is up to you to point out a text that has all the elements. But it is not needed to vindicate God, and it is not needed for Jesus to know who to reward.

Here is another text, a parable, that puts the giving account of the righteous at Jesus' coming:


Mat 25:14 "For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property.
Mat 25:15 To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away.
Mat 25:16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more.
Mat 25:17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more.
Mat 25:18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money.
Mat 25:19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
Mat 25:20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, 'Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.'
Mat 25:21 His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.'

 

[Stryder06]

I don't think it is possible to rule out a judgment before Jesus coming. On the other hand I don't see the specific IJ of Adventist doctrine spelled out in Scripture. The following elements are part of that IJ:

a. Beginning in 1844
b. only on the professed people of God
c. in fulfillment of the Day of Atonement cleansing.

I have found no scripture that has all those elements.


Nor do you need a judgment for Jesus to bring his reward.


John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

Jesus already knows His own.

For that matter, if you posit a judgment, why would it only be on the righteous? The IJ of Adventist doctrine is to be on the professed people of God. But wouldn't the profession be the first thing that needs evidence?

If the onlooking universe can't trust God to save those who have truly believed without evidence, why wouldn't they also need evidence for EVERY person regarding who is a professed believer in the first place?

Now, we do agree, there will be a judgment. If anything we ought to look at the plain texts in the Bible that spell out judgement being in the presence of God.


Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;
Rom 14:11 for it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.


We stand before the judgment seat. We bow the knee and confess. We give an account to God.

That is not describing the Adventist IJ. In the Adventist IJ we are not present and do not know when our name comes up. Therefore we are not standing before the judgment seat, nor bowing the knee, nor giving an account.

Notice also that there is no reason for the onlooking universe to be convinced by a prolonged IJ to ferret out the issues. All will confess to God.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

We must APPEAR before the judgment seat, and then we receive what is due.

It is at Jesus' coming that things of the heart are revealed. That is the time when things will be judged.

1Co 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

The hidden things are brought to light at Jesus' coming. It is then that all acknowledge Him. There is no need for a the prolonged posited Adventist IJ. Each person is convinced of their ungodly deeds:

Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


These are definite texts indicating that the hearts of men will be revealed by judgment before God at His coming. So either way, God being vindicated is not an issue.

in these texts the people are present, they give an account, they confess. Those things do not happen at the IJ.

So if there is one it is up to you to point out a text that has all the elements. But it is not needed to vindicate God, and it is not needed for Jesus to know who to reward.

Here is another text, a parable, that puts the giving account of the righteous at Jesus' coming:


Mat 25:14 "For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property.
Mat 25:15 To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away.
Mat 25:16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more.
Mat 25:17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more.
Mat 25:18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money.
Mat 25:19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
Mat 25:20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, 'Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.'
Mat 25:21 His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.'

If you don't mind, could you explain to me how you understand the following verses?

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begins with us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

1 Cor 6:3 Know you not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Daniel 7:10 A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened.

Rev 20 11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Also, if you don't mind, what is the purpose of the judgment? Since God knows everything and is wholly just, why is there any need for a judgment at all? Who does the judgment benefit?

 

[tall73]

If you don't mind, could you explain to me how you understand the following verses?

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begins with us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

1Pe 4:14 If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you.
1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler.
1Pe 4:16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name.
1Pe 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18 And "If the righteous is scarcely saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"

He sees it applying to his time, and the events involving the Christians being persecuted. He warns them that their actions during this time have eternal weight, not only for them, but for unbelievers who are in a worse position, but could be influenced by them.

It certainly doesn't indicate 1844, etc.





1 Cor 6:3 Know you not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

We don't do that in 1844 either according to Adventists. It would clearly happen after the resurrection.


Daniel 7:10 A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened.

The judgment pictured is not the IJ. It involves judgment on not only the little horn power, but judgment on the other three beasts/nations as well. It is a view of God's judging the nations.

The Babylonians, Medes and Persians, etc. were hardly all "professed believers". Therefore it does not meet Ellen White's criteria:


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So in the great day of final atonement and investigative judgment the only cases considered are those of the professed people of God. [/FONT] Great Controversy Chapter 28, page 480



Rev 20 11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

A judgment on every man.

Also, if you don't mind, what is the purpose of the judgment? Since God knows everything and is wholly just, why is there any need for a judgment at all? Who does the judgment benefit?

It demonstrates God's justice and allows people to give an account. Incidentally, the IJ doesn't have an account giving, like the texts I referenced.

The judgment involves all people giving an account and confessing, vindicating God fully. That is different than the idea that only the angels, etc. go through books without people being present to give account, confess, etc.

Jesus knows His own all along. But the secrets of men's hearts are revealed at His coming.

1Co 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.