Does the Thief on the Cross bypass the Invesigative Judgement..

[tall73]

I don't know if anyone here is contending that. It could be that what they're saying is coming across wrong to certain individuals. Given the nature of God, I highly doubt someone here is thinking that Jesus is doing this because He doesn't know who He will and won't save.

So let's ask it another way.

Does Jesus need a judgment to know who to reward then?

Because that is what ECR was contending.

 

[tall73]

Off to work now, will respond to the rest later.

 

[Stryder06]

So let's ask it another way.

Does Jesus need a judgment to know who to reward then?

Because that is what ECR was contending.

Jesus doesn't do anything on a need to know basis. He's God. He knows everything already. I'd have to read what ECR wrote to know what you're talking about. I still get the feeling you may be misunderstanding what he is saying.

 

[Stryder06]

A text that contains the criteria would. The absence of such is not my failing.

Line upon line Tall...

Have you assessed what I mentioned about the text earlier?

I did. I think your assessment leaves out the idea of the judgment that Peter spoke of continuing on.

You have not yet responded to what was noted about that text when you mentioned it the first time. So mentioning it again, without addressing what was said before does not support your position.

I still would like you to read what I said before on it. But let me make it as simple as possible:

1Pe 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God


He was speaking about this beginning in his day.

Did Peter live in 1844?

I wasn't saying that Peter was saying the IJ was starting at His time. I was using that verse to point out that various judgments seem to occur in scripture, way before the 2nd coming. I believe the 1844 judgment is what is spoken of in Revelation.

 

[Cribstyl]

1Pe 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God

Stryder, this text is not speaking of end of the world judgment. The text is speaking about how members of Christ should make righteous judgment in their lives, and not be an evil doer or wicked person.


Share the Sufferings of Christ
12 Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you;
13 but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation.
14 If you are reviled [fn10] for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.
15 Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a [fn11] troublesome meddler;
16 but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name.
17 For it is time for judgment to begin [fn12] with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
18 AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, [fn13] WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?
19 Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.


Peter is saying you're being tested, so make wise decisions. The gospel compells us to suffer for righteousness sake rather than brothers fighting because they're justified.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

So let's ask it another way.

Does Jesus need a judgment to know who to reward then?

Because that is what ECR was contending.

Why are there records kept then? Why do the books need to be opened? For God's benefit or others?

Was this whole controversy not permitted to play out to show God's creation that He is a Just and Holy God?

 

[tall73]

I'd have to read what ECR wrote to know what you're talking about. I still get the feeling you may be misunderstanding what he is saying.

I quoted what ECR wrote for you.

Did you see that I quoted what he said?

 

[tall73]

Line upon line Tall...


I did. I think your assessment leaves out the idea of the judgment that Peter spoke of continuing on.



I wasn't saying that Peter was saying the IJ was starting at His time. I was using that verse to point out that various judgments seem to occur in scripture, way before the 2nd coming. I believe the 1844 judgment is what is spoken of in Revelation.

Yes, indeed various judgments happen in the Scripture. No one has denied that. For instance Jesus, etc. refer to the judgment on Sodom etc.

There was judgment against the nations and Israel in the times of the prophets, etc.

But what Peter is referring to is not at all supporting 1844. As such, it does not further your argument. It has reference to his own time, and yes, beyond. But it does not establish the existence of an Adventist IJ, with its various particulars.

 

[tall73]

I wasn't saying that Peter was saying the IJ was starting at His time. I was using that verse to point out that various judgments seem to occur in scripture, way before the 2nd coming. I believe the 1844 judgment is what is spoken of in Revelation.

First of all you have already stated that you think there is an 1844 judgment, then say this text is talking about it. But that is the problem. You are trying to establish an 1844 judgment, not assume it exists and then say this text is referencing it.

The text in Revelation does not say it is an investigation. It does not say it is only on the righteous. It certainly doesn't mention 1844.

In its context it appears much more likely to be the carrying out of judgment on the power of Babylon which is leading the world astray:

Rev 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people.
Rev 14:7 And he said with a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come, and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water."
Rev 14:8 Another angel, a second, followed, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who made all nations drink the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality."


The hour of judgment is pronounced and then the judgment given that Babylon is fallen.

If you want to say you believe this is about the 1844 judgment, you have to show the elements of the 1844 judgment in the text itself.

Chapter 18 spells out in more detail the judgment of God against Babylon:

Rev 18:1 After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was made bright with his glory.
Rev 18:2 And he called out with a mighty voice, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place for demons, a haunt for every unclean spirit, a haunt for every unclean bird, a haunt for every unclean and detestable beast.
Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have grown rich from the power of her luxurious living."
Rev 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues;
Rev 18:5 for her sins are heaped high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
Rev 18:6 Pay her back as she herself has paid back others, and repay her double for her deeds; mix a double portion for her in the cup she mixed.
Rev 18:7 As she glorified herself and lived in luxury, so give her a like measure of torment and mourning, since in her heart she says, 'I sit as a queen, I am no widow, and mourning I shall never see.'
Rev 18:8 For this reason her plagues will come in a single day, death and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for mighty is the Lord God who has judged her."
Rev 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who committed sexual immorality and lived in luxury with her, will weep and wail over her when they see the smoke of her burning.
Rev 18:10 They will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say, "Alas! Alas! You great city, you mighty city, Babylon! For in a single hour your judgment has come."

 

[tall73]

Peter is saying you're being tested, so make wise decisions.

Agreed.

 

[tall73]

So let's ask it another way.

Does Jesus need a judgment to know who to reward then?

Why are there records kept then? Why do the books need to be opened? For God's benefit or others?

Was this whole controversy not permitted to play out to show God's creation that He is a Just and Holy God?

You seem to be addressing something other than what I was discussing.

Jesus does not need a judgment to know who to reward. He knows His own.

 

[tall73]

Why are there records kept then? Why do the books need to be opened? For God's benefit or others?

Oh I agree the books play a role, and are for others.

However, that is not the same as demonstrating an Adventist IJ with all its particulars.

And my point before was that we do see parts of the Bible that indicate judgment, and confession and that vindicate God. They just don't have the particulars of the Adventist IJ.

Nor did I say that God will not be vindicated. However, there are plain texts that talk about God being vindicated by all bowing the knee. That happens when they are present.


The books do play a role.

Mat 12:36 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak,
Mat 12:37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

Here Jesus refers to the record of our words. We GIVE AN ACCOUNT at the judgment. That is not the Adventist IJ. There is confrontation with the record which leads to conviction. Hence everyone giving an account and everyone ultimately bowing the knee.

In Revelation 20 again we see the books opened and people present at the judgment.

And of course it references the book of life. And indeed, Jesus already knows those within. But this is also consulted at the judgment in Rev. 20. However, again, people are present here. And it is not the Adventist IJ.



Now in Daniel 7 we see the books again. Here we have something different. The judgment here is against beast powers or nations, and the little horn power. The saints are delivered as a group and the beasts punished as a group.

And in this case the books are again referenced to establish guilt. But this again is not the Adventist IJ. The IJ is only on the professed people of God. And the Medes, Persians, Babylonians, etc. are not the professed people of God. Yet those powers are judged and their dominion taken away in that judgment.

The judgment there shows God's sovereignty over the nations.

The point of all this is the following:

A. There is a judgment
B. There are books
C. God is vindicated


However, the texts we are looking at so far do not show the particular characteristics of the Adventist IJ. If the IJ stands from the Bible we need the texts that establish it.

 

[tall73]

will it have any effect if somebody doesnt believe in the investigative judgment theory?

I mean if it truly exists, awareness of the judgment doesnt change anything or does it?

It means less and less lately to Adventists. But initially it was quite important. It explained their disappointment, explained the delay, gave them their marching orders, and provided a prophetic framework that they saw applying to their movement.

Now most of the members try to downplay it. They no longer seem to believe it provides these same things.

Traditionals on the other hand still see the doctrine performing that service.

 

[Stryder06]

Stryder, this text is not speaking of end of the world judgment. The text is speaking about how members of Christ should make righteous judgment in their lives, and not be an evil doer or wicked person.


Share the Sufferings of Christ
12 Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you;
13 but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation.
14 If you are reviled [fn10] for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.
15 Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a [fn11] troublesome meddler;
16 but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name.
17 For it is time for judgment to begin [fn12] with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
18 AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, [fn13] WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?
19 Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.


Peter is saying you're being tested, so make wise decisions. The gospel compells us to suffer for righteousness sake rather than brothers fighting because they're justified.

Yes Peter is saying be wise, but he is also saying that the time for judgment of the house of God is to begin. Like I was saying to Tall. I was using that text to simply say that judgment for the righteous begins before the 2nd coming.

 

[Stryder06]

I quoted what ECR wrote for you.

Did you see that I quoted what he said?

I missed that. Was it earlier in the thread? I just looked through the last couple of pages, and either I'm missing it, or it's further back.

 

[Stryder06]

First of all you have already stated that you think there is an 1844 judgment, then say this text is talking about it. But that is the problem. You are trying to establish an 1844 judgment, not assume it exists and then say this text is referencing it.

The text in Revelation does not say it is an investigation. It does not say it is only on the righteous. It certainly doesn't mention 1844.

In its context it appears much more likely to be the carrying out of judgment on the power of Babylon which is leading the world astray:

Rev 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people.
Rev 14:7 And he said with a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come, and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water."
Rev 14:8 Another angel, a second, followed, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, she who made all nations drink the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality."


The hour of judgment is pronounced and then the judgment given that Babylon is fallen.

If you want to say you believe this is about the 1844 judgment, you have to show the elements of the 1844 judgment in the text itself.

Chapter 18 spells out in more detail the judgment of God against Babylon:

Rev 18:1 After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was made bright with his glory.
Rev 18:2 And he called out with a mighty voice, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place for demons, a haunt for every unclean spirit, a haunt for every unclean bird, a haunt for every unclean and detestable beast.
Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have grown rich from the power of her luxurious living."
Rev 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues;
Rev 18:5 for her sins are heaped high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
Rev 18:6 Pay her back as she herself has paid back others, and repay her double for her deeds; mix a double portion for her in the cup she mixed.
Rev 18:7 As she glorified herself and lived in luxury, so give her a like measure of torment and mourning, since in her heart she says, 'I sit as a queen, I am no widow, and mourning I shall never see.'
Rev 18:8 For this reason her plagues will come in a single day, death and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for mighty is the Lord God who has judged her."
Rev 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who committed sexual immorality and lived in luxury with her, will weep and wail over her when they see the smoke of her burning.
Rev 18:10 They will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say, "Alas! Alas! You great city, you mighty city, Babylon! For in a single hour your judgment has come."

Like I said, I'm not arguing this with you. You already know what I know, and why I know it, since you used to believe it. Trying to explain it to you is useless since you are already convinced that the texts don't say what I believe they are saying.

 

[tall73]

I missed that. Was it earlier in the thread? I just looked through the last couple of pages, and either I'm missing it, or it's further back.

You are quite right. I can't find the post now either, but I was sure there was one between two of my earlier posts.

Sorry for sending you looking for something not there.


Earlier in the thread ECR said:

We do know that when Jesus comes again He brings His reward with Him so the judgement of the righteous would have already been done.

Jesus doesn't need a judgment to know who to rewards.

 

[tall73]

Yes Peter is saying be wise, but he is also saying that the time for judgment of the house of God is to begin. Like I was saying to Tall. I was using that text to simply say that judgment for the righteous begins before the 2nd coming.

You said to tall that various judgments are seen, and I agree.

But this does not point out anything relative to the IJ. It is simply a different judgment pictured.

Judgment on the wicked happened also before this story (flood, Sodom, Israel, etc.)

When he talks about judgment beginning at the house of God it seems to echo OT stories such as the judgment in Ezekiel where God had them start with killing the wicked at the house of God or sanctuary where there was expected to be those serving God (but was actually idolatry).

 

[tall73]

Like I said, I'm not arguing this with you. You already know what I know, and why I know it, since you used to believe it. Trying to explain it to you is useless since you are already convinced that the texts don't say what I believe they are saying.

This is not just a Tall73 problem. The problem is that your church is the only church that sees them saying this. And many within your church don't see it either.

If you can't demonstrate that the text talks about 1844, or investigation, or only on the saints, or in fulfillment of the day of atonement type, then why would we think it is that judgment?

And why would we think there IS a "that judgment" of 1844 if you don't have texts that describe it?

 

[Stryder06]

Earlier in the thread ECR said:



Jesus doesn't need a judgment to know who to rewards.

Jesus doesn't need a judgment to know who's saved and who's lost. Yet there will still be a judgment. I think ECR's point is that judgment for the righteous will be complete at the second coming.

You said to tall that various judgments are seen, and I agree.

But this does not point out anything relative to the IJ. It is simply a different judgment pictured.

Judgment on the wicked happened also before this story (flood, Sodom, Israel, etc.)

When he talks about judgment beginning at the house of God it seems to echo OT stories such as the judgment in Ezekiel where God had them start with killing the wicked at the house of God or sanctuary where there was expected to be those serving God (but was actually idolatry).

Either you've started a new tradition of speaking in 1st person, or your account has been HaX0r3D
That notwithstanding, the word judgment is used to mean many a thing. For the most part, we see judgment in the bible as an act of punishment from God. That's not what we're talking about here though. I do believe Peter was alluding to the words of the prophet Ezekiel. I believe though that in Ezekiel's vision, the call for the servants of God to be sealed, was a revelation of what was to happen at the end of time.

This is not just a Tall73 problem. The problem is that your church is the only church that sees them saying this. And many within your church don't see it either.

If you can't demonstrate that the text talks about 1844, or investigation, or only on the saints, or in fulfillment of the day of atonement type, then why would we think it is that judgment?

And why would we think there IS a "that judgment" of 1844 if you don't have texts that describe it?

I'm convinced by the explanations regarding prophecies. As I told Tall already, I'm not going to argue that point. He used to believe that point. Now he doesn't. If you disagree with the prophetic explanations, and can't see the correlation between the earthly and heavenly sanctuary, then there's nothing more I can really say, that hasn't been said already.

How many of whoever see's what we see is irrelevant. The bible teaches it, and I see it plainly now. It's the only explanation that makes any sense. I for the life of me can't even understand why this is a problem for most people (I mean I can as the adversary will do all he can to distract people from seeing Christ in the heavenly sanctuary). Not everything in scripture is spelled out. Some messages are given cryptically, so that only those who truly are seeking them, may find them.