Mike7251 said:
Ezekiels Bone Yard
Then He said to me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off! Therefore prophesy and say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD:
Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves. I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it, says the LORD. (Ezekiel 37:11-14)
During the Babylonian captivity Israel was cut off from her homeland. They spent seventy years in another country. (Heres the point.) Israel was cut off from the Promised Land was, in the sight of God, as dead! All these Jews were alive physically, but as the Lord showed Ezekiel they were in a valley of dry bones and in a grave nationally.
God in restoring His people to their own land uses the figure of graves opening and His people coming forth in national resurrection.
Reader if you now understand this second meaning of death (national Jews cut off from the promised land), then you possess a valuable tool in understanding mans separated from God in (Genesis 3:23-24). Man was cut off from the tree of life and no longer in the presence of God. Man was cut off from God, just like Israel was cut off from their promise land while in Babylonian captivity. To God they were also separated from Him and in a grave nationally.
It was after Babylonian captivity that Jerusalem was re-built that futurist get confused with the day we are living in right now when it comes to the re-building of the temple. Most of the prophecies concerning the restoration of Israel by Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc. had to do with the Herods temple. Not any future temple where a world ruler called the Antichrist will be. After 70 AD the only temple that scripture deals with is the body of the believer in which indwells Jesus Christ. Well the Father and Holy Spirit also. In Christ is the fullness of the Godhead bodily the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Colossians 2
8Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.
Being Caught Up
The modern concept that physical human bodies had to be transformed into the likeness of Christ is not consistent with scripture. The first century saints were indeed transformed in the likeness of Christ in their physical bodies.
In Romans 6:1-11 the apostle demonstrates how in baptism the Romans had died with Christ, vs. 3, and had been raised with him, vs. 4. This patently cannot refer to a physical body, and resurrection. But notice verse 5: "If we have been planted with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection."
Is the likeness of his death a physical likeness? If so, Paul and the other had died physically. But if it be admitted that this refers to a spiritual likeness how does this impact verse 5? Are we to see that in baptism there is a spiritual likeness to the death of Jesus but in resurrection there will be a physical imitation of his resurrection? Who changed Paul's hermeneutic here? Our Modern interpreters, not Paul, change the nature of the discussion.
For Paul, the "likeness" was the same in both death and life. In verse 8 the apostle says "if we died with Christ, we believe we shall also live with him." Here Paul is talking to people still living in physical bodies yet he says they had died with Christ. The coming life was of the same nature as the death; but the death was not physical, therefore the coming life was not physical. . Paul has not changed subjects; he is still focused on his singular desire to be in the "likeness of Christ.
In order to understand what Paul is saying we must see how Paul talks in terms of covenants. Colossians 3:1 is of the same discussion. Paul said the Colossians had died with Christ and their lives were hidden. Was that a physical death NO.
The New Testament writers likened life under the Old Covenant to death, because all those under the Law were under the curse, Gal. 3:10f. We must see things the way Paul was teaching the covenant change over.
The futurist view just does not make sense when you look at it in the context of the entire New Testament. The typical futurist takes scripture out of context not only of other scripture, but of its cultural and historical context. For example, they say that being transformed to His likeness has to do with the physical body. Yet, the writers of the New Testament said this transformation was already in progress in Pauls day.
But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
2 Cor. 3:18 (NKJV)
If we take the futurist interpretation to heart this must mean that their physical bodies were changing. Maybe they could walk half way through a wall!
We see similar problems everywhere in the New Testament. For example, the early church was exhorted by Paul to put on the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 13:14). What were they doing? Were they literally putting on His glorified body?
Many passages in Romans create severe problems for the futurist.
Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Rom. 6:6
The body of sin had already been done away with. I guess that means that the first century Christians had no physical bodies! And the list goes on .
Clouds are most often symbolic of the Lords presence or if the Lord comes on the clouds, it denotes coming in judgment. Moreover, the word air in I Thes. 4 does not mean the air way up there. It means the air in the lungs or the immediate vicinity. Why do you suppose Paul would use this word if he had literal clouds in mind?
Verse 17 of I Thes. 4 is the crux of the matter. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Are we not now with the Lord now that the fullness of the New Covenant is here? The way into the fullness of Gods presence awaited the destruction of the Old Covenant world and the Parousia (Heb 9:8). Now that it has occurred, we will always be with the Lord. Thus Jesus words in John eight ring true.
Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.
As far as Ephesians two is concerned, I think we can look at the state of the first century church in light of their union with Christ. What was past concerning Christ at the time? He had died, and the early believers had died with Him. He was raised and seated in a position above all rule and authority and power. He was reigning over what He would put an end to at the Parousia. Ephesians one and two are a picture of the church in her reigning state at that time. Yet, the scriptures also say that when Christ was revealed they too would be revealed with Him in glory. In other words, their full and final victory awaited the Lords appearing.
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