Does the Bible teach works must follow God's grace as a part of our salvation?

[SeventyOne]

Seventy.....close but no cigar. Here’s why. Once we find out the starting point, then what? Only Jesus is perfect and since He knows that we can’t be perfect , what is the standard? 51% perfect ,75% perfect or gulp,99% perfect..again I plead....What must we do?

I'm hoping he can fill us in. He's making all the claims. I just want to see the scriptures from where these claims originate. I certianly don't want to be told that I started my good works 3 hours too late and only achieved 94% perfection rather than the required 95%.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

No. James was referring to New Covenant Law and not Old Covenant Law. The Perfect Law of Liberty is a New Covenant Law because the Old Law did not provide any liberty like the New Covenant does today. Loving your neighbor is the Royal Law and the Perfect Law of Liberty. For loving your neighbor is the same thing as the keeping of the Moral Law (like do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc.) (See Romans 13:8-10).

As for James 2:13 it says this in NLT,

"There will be no mercy for those who have not shown mercy to others. But if you have been merciful, God will be merciful when he judges you." (James 2:13).

This point was raised by James to help those believers who were not giving favor to the poor brethren.

I can agree with about half of what you say, the other half is your premise of logic, which isn't going to change.
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For example, Romans 13, that infamous statement that sums up all the commandments and "any other commandment" by love not harming their neighbour and fulfilling the law.
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There's another dimension of understanding here, but I didn't get it back then either, So I trust God to make it clear as he sees fit.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I can agree with about half of what you say, the other half is your premise of logic, which isn't going to change.
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For example, Romans 13, that infamous statement that sums up all the commandments and "any other commandment" by love not harming their neighbour and fulfilling the law.
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There's another dimension of understanding here, but I didn't get it back then either, So I trust God to make it clear as he sees fit.

You can disagree but that is not the same as actually showing me why I am wrong with Scripture. Are you saying the Royal Law and the Perfect Law of Liberty is the Old Law? If so, what verse suggests that this is exclusively the Old Law and not New Covenant Law?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

You can disagree but that is not the same as actually showing me why I am wrong with Scripture. Are you saying the Royal Law and the Perfect Law of Liberty is the Old Law? If so, what verse suggests that this is exclusively the Old Law and not New Covenant Law?

According to the proverbs and my own experience, you cannot be shown the error of your interpretation according to your premise of logic. I have provided points, that you can consider at a later date.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

I can agree with about half of what you say, the other half is your premise of logic, which isn't going to change.
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For example, Romans 13, that infamous statement that sums up all the commandments and "any other commandment" by love not harming their neighbour and fulfilling the law.
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There's another dimension of understanding here, but I didn't get it back then either, So I trust God to make it clear as he sees fit.

No. James was referring to New Covenant Law and not Old Covenant Law. The Perfect Law of Liberty is a New Covenant Law because the Old Law did not provide any liberty like the New Covenant does today. Loving your neighbor is the Royal Law and the Perfect Law of Liberty. For loving your neighbor is the same thing as the keeping of the Moral Law (like do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc.) (See Romans 13:8

Wow.....sounds waaaaay too complicated for me.Who knew Christianity would be this hard?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

According to the proverbs and my own experience, you cannot be shown the error of your interpretation according to your premise of logic. I have provided points, that you can consider at a later date.

No. You need show me with Scripture that what you believe is true if you want to prove me wrong. If you cannot do that, then I and others will conclude that you are just hitting the disagree button for no good reason.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Wow.....sounds waaaaay too complicated for me.Who knew Christianity would be this hard?

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (2 Timothy 2:15).

In other words, prove to me why you are right and why I am wrong on what James is saying about the Perfect Law of Liberty in James 1 and James 2. Why do you think this is talking about the Old Law? What verse gives you that idea?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

No. You need show me with Scripture that what you believe is true if you want to prove me wrong. If you cannot do that, then I and others will conclude that you are just hitting the disagree button for no good reason.

Regrettably, I don't grow from pointless debates anymore, so I just can't motivate myself to explain my point of view any more than I already have.
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Sorry about that.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Regrettably, I don't grow from pointless debates anymore, so I just can't motivate myself to explain my point of view any more than I already have.
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Sorry about that.

Showing people the truth of the Scriptures should never be a pointless exercise or debate. But you are free to believe whatever you like. For man shall not live by bread alone.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (2 Timothy 2:15).

In other words, prove to me why you are right and why I am wrong on what James is saying about the Perfect Law of Liberty in James 1 and James 2. Why do you think this is talking about the Old Law? What verse gives you that idea?

With apologies to Collum , I offer the following——


Regrettably, I don't grow from pointless debates anymore, so I just can't motivate myself to explain my point of view any more than I already have.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Showing people the truth of the Scriptures should never be a pointless exercise or debate. But you are free to believe whatever you like. For man shall not live by bread alone.

That's the thing tho, I did use scripture, and you proceeded to tell me that I didn't use scripture, and then continued to ask me to think according to your logical premise to prove you wrong. That sounds very one sided, I'm not interested.

 

[Linktogunner]

No. James was referring to New Covenant Law and not Old Covenant Law. The Perfect Law of Liberty is a New Covenant Law because the Old Law did not provide any liberty like the New Covenant does today. Loving your neighbor is the Royal Law and the Perfect Law of Liberty. For loving your neighbor is the same thing as the keeping of the Moral Law (like do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc.) (See Romans 13:8-10).

Micheal Collum said "James offered an alternative for his rule oriented disciples in his letter, he invented this concept called the law of liberty, it's not about following the mosaic law, it's about the loving your neighbour as yourself, not showing favouritism, and helping the unfortunate and weak." What are you arguing with Micheal about here?! You are saying the same thing he is! At least on this one point.

 

[1stcenturylady]

If your saying that we must Believe in Jesus for the Forgiveness of Sins, and do good works before we are Saved. Then "NO" we don't.

It's by Faith, not by works.

BUT.

Eph. 2:10
For we are his workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The good works come after our Salvation, they are an outward sign of our Salvation, which we have been ordained to do, meaning the Saved person WILL have good works.

BUT

Our Salvation is not coupled with good works in order to receive Salvation.

What I've noticed on the forums there is a difference of degree when it comes to what are the "works" being talked of. Some say only the Mosaic laws of circumcision, meats, and days. While others go to the opposite extreme and say obedience to the commandments of Jesus are "works." I think it is important to specify what one means by "works" as there are many differing interpretations.

 

[JIMINZ]

What I've noticed on the forums there is a difference of degree when it comes to what are the "works" being talked of. Some say only the Mosaic laws of circumcision, meats, and days. While others go to the opposite extreme and say obedience to the commandments of Jesus are "works." I think it is important to specify what one means by "works" as there are many differing interpretations.

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Don't ask me it's not my thread.
You could specify what you take on works is, then at least we would know where you stand.

 

[discipler7]

Does the Bible teach works must follow God's grace as a part of our salvation?

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Yes.

Notice that before the 1st Advent of Jesus Christ to earth at 000BC, the Jews had to have faith in God's Law or Moses Law and keep the Law, in order to be saved from hell, as per LUKE.16:19-31. How come.? = 1PETER.3:19 & 4:6 says that these faithful Jews were actually saved when Jesus Christ broke into the gates of hell and preached to gospel to them.(cf; MATT.17:3 & 27:52)
... So, in effect, these Jews were saved from hell by having faith in God's Law and in God's Son, Jesus.

After the 1st Advent of Jesus Christ to earth at 000BC, the above requirements for salvation remained, ie new Jewish Christians like the 12 apostles were required to continue to keep Moses Law, as many as possible, because it was not a burden to them.
... But for new Gentile Christians, there were only required to keep laws that were not a burden, starting with the 4 easy laws of ACTS.15:24-29. So, in effect, Gentiles were saved from hell by having faith in God's Son, Jesus and in the non-burdensome parts of God's Law.

Faith does not just focus on Jesus Christ. The Law/commandments/Word of God also requires faith.

MATTHEW.7:21-23, 1CORINTHIANS.6:9-11, GALATIANS.5:19-21, HEBREWS.11 and REVELATION.22:12-15 attest to this fact.

P S - The confusion about Grace vs Law was caused by some Jewish Christians/Judaizers, led by James the Just, requiring new Gentile Christians to also keep Moses Law - GALATIANS.2:9-14.
... Today, the Jews still falsely believe that they will be saved from hell when they die by just having faith in God's Law and keeping the Law. Having rejected Jesus as their Messiah/Christ, the Jews are still waiting for the 1st Advent of Christ/Messiah to earth.

 

[JIMINZ]

Exceptions to the rule? I have yet to see the passages that detail these exceptions. Why not just come out and say you believe there are multiple paths to salvation? You've just admitted works are not necessary for salvation.

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What kind of multiple paths are you referring to?
Sounds like your saying works are one way.

 

[Cat Loaf You]

Works salvation is heresy , if you have anything than Jesus + nothing to be saved you are preaching another gospel and no you don't need to "keep your salvation " it's like saying thanks Christ that you died for me but your not good enought to forgive me for that last party when i drank too much beer.

People who put faith in thier works put no faith in God , moreover if you try to keep your salvation you have two saviors yourself and God .

 

[A_Thinker]

While I believe we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith, what is the opposite of being too law oriented?

Trusting in the LOVE and GRACE that Jesus brings, while allowing His Spirit to motivate you to the GOOD WORKS that God desires from you.

Did not Jesus say if you will enter into life, keep the commandments?

He said this to a works-oriented Jew prior to His sacrifice for sin ...

Matthew 19

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, WHAT GOOD THING SHALL I DO that I may have eternal life?”

17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? NO ONE IS GOOD, that is, GOD. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and yourmother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth.What do I still lack?”

21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

We see that the young man clearly asked "What good thing shall I do ?" ... to enter heaven.

And we see Jesus' response that "Noone is Good, but God". This would indicate to me that noone earns heaven by being Good, ... because only God is Good.

And, finally, we see the results of such a works-oriented approach to salvation ... "The young man went away sorrowfully," ... because he could not do ... what Jesus asked of him (in order to be perfect).

 

[A_Thinker]

There are two kinds of people.

#1. Folks who are looking to justify doing the wrong doing.
#2. Folks who are looking to do the right thing.

Doing the right thing will lead one to accept Christ and to do good works for Him whereby they will turn away from sin and fight against it with the power of the Lord with a pure heart in honestly of reading the Scriptures plainly.

I tend to agree with you here.

Those that come to Christ must desire something (from a relationship with God) ... that is worth their alignment of their will with God's will (at least, to a degree).

That same motivation will translate into the performance of God-enabled good works ... and resistance to sin in their lives ... while enjoying and pursuing relationship with God.

 

[SBC]

Does the Bible teach works must follow God's grace as a part of our salvation?

Yes. This is true (according to the Bible); For we see clearly that holiness (Ephesians 5:25-27) and works (Titus 2:14) is a natural by-product of God's grace. Paul was talking about the works of the Law of Moses (because he referred to circumcision many times - Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12, Galatians 5:2), and not the works of Faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3) (2 Thessalonians 1:11). Paul was not condemning all forms of works or works as a part of the salvation process (after God's grace), but he was condemning "Works Alone Salvationism" without God's grace. This is why Paul says if it is by works it is no more grace. Surely if salvation was exclusively alone by works, we would all be doomed. For all men have sinned and they need a Savior to wipe out their past record of sin. We have to understand that Paul was talking to the Jews who rejected their Messiah when he said grace is no more grace if it is of works (Romans 11:6 cf. Romans 11:1). The Jews rejected God's grace and their Messiah. One of the points that Jesus made with the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee is that he was condemning the Pharisee's false religion of trying to be saved by works alone without God's grace because the Pharisee did not cry out unto God to have mercy on his own life. The Pharisee was also not concerned in helping the Tax Collector in overcoming his sin, either. He was just seeking to condemn the poor guy. However, what you will not find in the Bible is a verse saying that God's grace + obedience to Him is not a part of His salvation. In fact, the very Fall of Adam and Eve was an act of disobedience. In fact, the first lie in the Garden by Satan to Eve was, "Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4). This same lie is being pushed today. You can disobey God's laws and not die. So obedience (works and holiness) plays a part in our salvation after we repent and believe in Jesus Christ to be saved (i.e. God's grace).

No.
A mans Salvation Is A Gift From God To A Man WHO has overcome His Disbelief In God, AND confessed His Belief, from his heart, To God.

ONCE A Man IS Saved....He Is Prepared to DO Works that Glorifies Gods Name.

But what If the man doesn't?

Does that man Lose his Salvation?

No.

And what If that man Does Do Works that Glorifies Gods Name?

Well then, as Scripture teaches, that man Shall receive heavenly rewards From God.

And the man who does No Works To Glorify Gods Name?

Well then, he shall be standing among the Saved observing others receiving THEIR heavenly rewards, while he receives none....
Well not "none". But rather Less.

More precisely... All men that are Saved receive the reward of the Crown of Life, because confessing belief in God to God,
Is accounted as a righteous act and worthy for that man to receive the reward of the Crown of Life.

And some men will receive additional crowns,
While others will not.

God Bless
SBC