Does the Bible teach works must follow God's grace as a part of our salvation?

[bugkiller]

What verse or passage even makes you think such a thing?

Jn 10

This is what the verse says in the Bible,

"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." (Matthew 12:32).

I see nothing about the rejection of Christ here. The blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is exactly that. It is speaking bad words against the Holy Spirit.

The word "blasphemy" means to speak bad words against God.

I mean, how do you even interpret .... "the world to come" with your view?
It is clearly talking about how speaking bad words against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven even during the time of the future 1,000 year reign of Christ (i.e. the Millennium).

Right on cue. Aren't you glad I mentioned it. I would discuss this but know you're not open.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

No. I am just telling you what the Bible says. Lets check it out and see what it says.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16-17). (KJV).

So the above passage says all Scripture is profitable for reproof or correction.

1 Corinthians 6:5 says,
"I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren?" (KJV 2016).

No you're providing quotes to back your argument in place of what the Scripture intends us to understand.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

You mentioned, I excluded myself.

God Bless,
SBC

Please quote me.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Yes God throws out much seed, some dies of draught, some get grow weak but some get eaten by predators but some fall in good soil and get fertilized, or say nourished and produce harvest. As someone who has sown a lot of seed I have noticed that much seed dies only tender care and a bit of blessing or as some call it good luck will produce harvest but much of it is planning, and timing and patience.

Lots of predators around.

bugkiller

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sad to see you think the wages of only some sins are death, contrary to what was showed (and the "serious sin" division was added by you later, an d is not a division made by LoveofTruth in the link you gave, while you yourself once said "You can disobey God's laws and not die" and, "if one is sinning on occasion in their life (with no intention in doing so), how then are they living holy?)

The Bible says there is a

1. "sin not unto death" and that there is a
2. "sin unto death."

"If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16-17).​

Some have proposed that the "sin not unto death" is a sin that leads to physical death. But how would anyone know what that sin was? How would they identify it?

Some have suggested that the "sin not unto death" is any sin that is not the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost. However, nowhere does John even hint about this idea within his epistle.

Others have said that the "sin not unto death" is any sin that does not lead to apostasy. Again, where does John talk about apostasy in his 1st epistle?

John says, "all unrighteousness is sin, and then says "there is a sin not unto death." So John is making two points here that are distinctive. He is saying all unrighteousness is sin (point #1) and there is not a sin unto death (point #2). Seeing John says this earlier in his epistle:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9).​

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. This is not a sin that leads unto death because they are confessing their sin. In fact, they are cleansed of "all unrighteousness by confessing their sin." This is the "sin not unto death." We see the words "all unrighteousness" in relation to sin used in 1 John 5:17 which says "all unrighteousness is sin."

In fact, we see Jesus hint or allude to the topic of a "sin not unto death" vs. a "sin unto death."

Jesus says,
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." (Matthew 23:23).​

Jesus essentially says they should have left the tithing undone and they should have focused on doing judgment, mercy, and faith instead. In Luke 11:42 Jesus essentially says to focus on love, as well. For if tithing was a sin unto death, then Jesus would not have said for them to leave such a command undone in favor of the more important matters of God's commands within the faith.

As for "LoveofTruth":
I consider him as a dear brother in the Lord. I can feel the love of God from him and the ministry that he has. We do not agree on everything, but we do agree on 1 John 3:6, and 1 John 3:9 in the fact that it is talking about a singular transgression or sin.

And that "sin unto death" is not reprobation/apostasy, as demonstrated it was, and that one who only sins on rare occasions or once in this life time with a penitent heart (which what i argued and showed) is lost, contrary to the person God says He saves.

Your statement is not clear in what it says here. I am not sure what you are saying.

It seems i cannot help your blindness, or lack of comprehension or unwillingness to follow what Scripture collectively teaches.

Meanwhile. I just received the the nice little present the man who does not sin occasionally apparently got me:

Staff removed your post from this thread for saying, "the false accursed gospel of Jason0047" which makes it personal and flames that member.

I think to be that touchy (and what i addressed was your teaching), and to go to a mod with it - which thus gets what reproves you removed - evidences something sinful. And which whining affirms i was right to break off the exchange with you, who evidenced he is not be reasonably reasoned with.

It really is not about me (like you are thinking). It simply is a violation of forum rules to flame or attack other posters here at Christian Forums. You need to talk more with a Forum Moderator about it so that you understand the rules in posting here at Christian Forums.

Anyways, may the Lord's love shine upon you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think the verse should read - For if we purposely sin after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins would more accurrately convey the truth.

That would imply practicing intentional sin as a lifestyle.

That's All I wish to address at this time.

bugkiller

I am not sure where your belief is at on this issue (Because sometimes words do not always convey what you are trying to really say).
However, I hear the words "practicing intentional sin as a lifestyle" a lot. But it is not a concept that is any different than those who say "we will always in in this life" or "we do not intend to sin but we always will sin." Others say, "Believers will always sin but they do not intend to sin, as long as they confess their sin and are not living a lifestyle of sin, they are saved."

My comment on these kinds of statements:
So is occasional sin okay with God vs. say doing a lot of sin?
Was not Adam separated from God by just one sin?
Did Adam set out to disobey God or did Adam intend to disobey Him?
Can we really say that sin done on occasion is innocent if we use the excuse that says that our sin was not intended or unintentional? What kinds of sins can man justify as being okay as long as they are occasional and unintentional sins?
Murder? Hate? Lying? Adultery? Theft?
Granted, I am not suggesting you believe that any of these sins are okay (even done on occasion or unintentionally). My point is that we as believers have to think with the mind set as being over-comers and to think positively about being a follower and servant of the Lord. We cannot have a defeatist attitude about sin (if you believe we cannot stop sinning in this life). Is not God more powerful than sin?
Yes, God can forgive us of hate, lying, and adultery if we repent, but we cannot say we will always do them on occasion or unintentionally (if that is what you are suggesting). We cannot say that we will not overcome sin in this life (if that is what you are suggesting). I believe there is no difference between that and practicing intentional sin as a lifestyle. It is an admittance to doing wrong doing ahead of time.
We have to fight to overcome sin and never make excuses for it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You hit on a primary key here with abide (live in).

The Christian doesn't abide in sin. The Christian abides in Jesus just like He said in Jn 15.

bugkiller

So what are you saying?
Are you saying that:

(a) A Christian does not live a sinful lifestyle?
(b) A Christian is forgiven even if they sin because they are forgiven of present and future sins?
(c) All of the above?

Note: What if a believer backslides into a life style of sin for a few months and then comes back. Were they saved or unsaved during their time of living in a lifestyle of habitual intentional sin? Or do you think that such a scenario will not ever happen in the Christian life? On the unbiblical belief of Eternal Security: Gotquestions says that a believer will not live a lifestyle of sin and yet they also say a believer can backslide into a lifestyle of sin and still be saved. This to me is a contradiction.

Is a backsliding Christian still saved?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No you're providing quotes to back your argument in place of what the Scripture intends us to understand.

bugkiller

Yeah, I think that if you do not want to discuss the actual verses in Scripture that I put forth and you are seeking to just give me opinions, or one liners, etc. I will put you on ignore. Too many times have I talked with Christians who do not want to discuss the actual verses I bring forth in any detail. In these cases, it just becomes an unfruitful discussion. So unless you bring up the actual words that I bolded and bring up the context and talk about what God's Word says, I cannot be bothered to read your posts anymore. I am here to discuss the Bible. So let's talk about the Bible. So I will give you a 1 or 2 more chances to respond correctly. If not, I am placing you on ignore, my friend.

But please do not take it personally. I am only interested in discussing the Bible with those who want to address the actual words of what Scripture has to say.

Anyways, as much as we disagree about the Word of God,
May God's love shine upon you tonight;
And have a Happy New Year.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jn 10

Giving me a general chapter to dig into is not really helpful to prove your case.
You have to give me actual words that say what you said before.
I have skimmed the chapter and does not say what you said it does.

[Jesus says,]
"I and my Father are one."

Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

Jesus answered them,
"Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?"

The Jews answered him, saying,
"For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

Jesus answered them,
"Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him."

Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,"
(John 10:30-39).​

Here is what John 10:36 says in several translations:

New International Version
what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

New Living Translation
why do you call it blasphemy when I say, 'I am the Son of God'? After all, the Father set me apart and sent me into the world.

English Standard Version
do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

Berean Study Bible
then what about the One whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world? How then can you accuse Me of blasphemy for stating that I am the Son of God?

Berean Literal Bible
do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You blaspheme,' because I said, 'I am Son of God'?

New American Standard Bible
do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God '?​

I don't see anything in these translations that would help to support what you say.
Please show me the exact words you think says what you say.

Right on cue. Aren't you glad I mentioned it. I would discuss this but know you're not open.

bugkiller

But you are not just responding to me so as to help me. You have to realize that others read these threads months and years down the road. If your post is helpful in explaining what God's Word says, then you should be jumping at the chance (IMO) to give me an answer (So as to help a fellow believer besides me).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You try to put words in my mouth just to argue. No thanks here.

bugkiller

They are questions and they are not accusations of what you believe. You said before you don't believe the Bible says there are different levels of sin. I shown you Scripture verses that prove otherwise. The questions were to engage you into what God's Word actually says. The questions were not meant to tell you what you believe. Questions are not meant to be accusations. My questions were to help for you to tell me what you believe those verses say. For example: If I asked you: Do you like red? That is not me saying that you like red. It is a question.

In other words, you can say, "no" or "yes" and then explain the verses.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What ever you wish.

bugkiller

A one liner like this does not really prove that you are correct, my friend.
Please show me why you believe the verses I quoted do not say what I think they say.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sorry but that's not what Jn 5:24 says.

Jesus says,
"He that heareth my word" (John 5:24).

The words, "Heareth my word" is talking about obeying God's commands or obeying God's Word.

Jesus says,
"Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice." (John 18:37).

Jesus voiced many commands for us.

In fact, Jesus said,

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

He [the rich young ruler] saith unto him,
"Which?"

Jesus said,
"Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

(Matthew 19:17-19).​

What commands are you talking about?

I believe Jesus is talking about the Moral Law of Love. See Matthew 19:19 above. Jesus said, "Thou shalt do not murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, etc."

Very true. The issue is what commands are being talked about. Are those the commands of Jesus as I Jn 3:23 says or are those commands the law issued to Israel alone?

The Moral Law still applies under the New Covenant. In Romans 13:8-10, Paul talks about how if one loves their neighbor they will not steal, murder, covet, etc. This is the Royal Law that still applies under the New Covenant. John says if we do not love our brother, no eternal life abides within us (1 John 3:15). Jesus says if we do not help the poor (Who is our neighbor) in this life, then we can be cast into everlasting fire (See Matthew 25:31-46).

I've accepted the invitation Jesus gave in Mat 11:28-30.

bugkiller

Jesus says in Matthew 11:29,

"and learn of me"

This means we are to follow in His footsteps and walk as Christ walked (i.e. to obey His commands or good ways).

 

[Jan001]

Sorry but that's not what Jn 5:24 says.

John 5:24
Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. nkjv​

This Scripture is present tense only. A person does not continue to believe in Jesus Christ unless he also continues to obey Jesus Christ's commandments which are His Father's commandments. If a person is believing in Jesus Christ (and obeying His commandments) at the time of his death, he will not come into the judgment/second death/hell.

Luke 6:46
But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? nkjv

Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. nkjv​

What commands are you talking about?

The commands that Jesus told His Apostles to teach.

Matthew 28:19-20
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age. niv​

Very true. The issue is what commands are being talked about. Are those the commands of Jesus as I Jn 3:23 says or are those commands the law issued to Israel alone?

1 John 3-23
And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. niv
​

In the New Covenant, there is no distinction between Israelites and Gentiles.

Romans 10:12
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and bestows his riches upon all who call upon him. rsv

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.​

There must be circumcision of all males in order to be legitimate members of the Old Covenant. Circumcision is unnecessary to be a legitimate member of the New Covenant. Therefore the Old Law/Covenant is obsolete/no longer in effect for God's people.

Examples of commandments for Christians:

Matthew 19:16-19
And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to him, “Which?” And Jesus said, “You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” rsv

Luke 3:9-14
9 Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”
10 And the multitudes asked him, “What then shall we do?” 11 And he answered them, “He who has two coats, let him share with him who has none; and he who has food, let him do likewise.” 12 Tax collectors also came to be baptized, and said to him, “Teacher, what shall we do?” 13 And he said to them, “Collect no more than is appointed you.” 14 Soldiers also asked him, “And we, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Rob no one by violence or by false accusation, and be content with your wages.” rsv

Romans 13:9
The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” rsv

1 Corinthians 14:37
If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. nkjv​

I've accepted the invitation Jesus gave in Mat 11:28-30.

Matthew 11:28-30
28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” rsv​

What is Jesus' yoke? His yoke is His commandments.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. rsv
​