Does the Bible teach that obedience is expected after salvation?

[razzelflabben]

in other words, in 5-6 it was about leaving both, obviously they were t leave Judaism, but also the other elementals were seen as the basic stuff, that they were called to go on from, it is twofold.

come on...what is listed as the basic/elementary teachings they were suppose to move on from? You changed your mind about them being Jewish traditions, now go the next step and discover what the text says they are....you can do it, I have faith that you can.

 

[razzelflabben]

Reading all this back and forth has been interesting. Begs a few questions for me though: can we be anymore righteous than we already are (the God-kind, as imputed by him, not the self-righteous kind)? And therefore, can our actions or behavior make us more righteous?

The record shows we are righteous with the righteousness of Christ. I don't think there is such a thing as more or less righteous. That being said, we can tarnish that righteousness, or maybe another way to say it is to charge another sin to our account which is why scripture tells us to many times to confess and repent of our sins. Even after we come to Christ and our record is cleared, we can sin and sometimes do sin which leaves our account in debt. Cleansing it is as simple as confessing and repenting, but it needs done if we are to take scripture at it's word. The problem is that like some here, many think that it is not necessary to turn from any sins that creep into our life after we come to the saving knowledge of Christ.

 

[razzelflabben]

and just for the record folks, the two words here could be temple references, as per judaism, again it is twofold. They layed hands on the lambs, and washings in the plural, would be more than baptism, as we know it, there were temple washings, no big deal, just bringing that out.

They had to leave legalistic Judaism, and that is the thrust of the book.


6 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

get all of them, not just the law part...come on, you can do it....go froggy, you can find out from the text what the elementary teachings are.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Yes, amen, and works are wonderful, and if we think about it, should they be called works of obedience, or just doing what comes natural? If one has to be obedient to do a task, it may indicate that one does not really want to do it. If one just does it, great, but if everything is so obedience orientated, it makes me wonder. Some people are so caught up with living obediently, I think there dogmatism may indicate something. I say may indicate, maybe, maybe not, but quite possibly it does.

It is as though they are arguing with themselves, when they keep telling everyone, how they, the other people must be obedient. The naturally obedient ones are thinking.."well...ummmm..yeah, ok, fine no big deal, where is the argument?"


The argument might just be in the soul of the obedience people, they may be arguing with themselves, convincing themselves. Maybe...I say maybe...

The reason that it is an inner work is because it goes against the nature that we have to deal with while we are on this earth. Peter advises to add to our discipline gentleness, kindness, longsuffering, tolerance, brotherly love because it is not a natural occurance and it takes daily stopping, starting, picking up the cross and following Him.
Yes they probably do have to argue with themselves until they can submit to the commands of Christ until the discipline produces a disciple of Christ.

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Originally Posted by Frogster View Post
..... hebrews was about how they should be leaving the elementals of Judaistic rituals bhind, they were stalled, or reverting backwards..to works, obedience mindsets.

The higher end, was to walk with a cleansed conscience in Hebrews, not elementalism, dead works. 9:14.


soooo

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Rituals of laying on of hands, repentance, and elementary teachings were to give place to a higher meatier walk. According to Peter that would be aligning self to Him who gave His precious blood for us by applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and so on so as to continually be progressing in our walk. Those who neglect that cannot be assured of their salvation.
John says to continue in love so that also takes constant vigilance of bringing everything to Him, cleansing of the conscience takes coming to Him in prayer.

People who object to workbased obedience are looking at outward acts for the sake of human reward. The inner work takes a yeilding to the Spirit daily for His work to be wrought in us.

BUT I think that if any do the work that feeds, adds dignity, clothes, visits the downtrodden for nothing more than a reward in heaven, my bet is that they will recieve it.
__________________

 

[Frogster]

come on...what is listed as the basic/elementary teachings they were suppose to move on from? You changed your mind about them being Jewish traditions, now go the next step and discover what the text says they are....you can do it, I have faith that you can.

Oh come on, the whole book is about leaving legalsitic Judaism and i proved my point using gal 4, and the elementalism was law, that fact you ignore.

Why?

Elementalism is in 5:12. No?

Were they to leave the elementary or not?


lol..you're acting like you got me or something, no way, and please, prove me wrong about gal 4.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Stephanie says, You cannot live in both natures simultaneously. IF you live in the new nature consistently, the old nature is dead. So, yes, we CAN "just live and breathe in the new nature". For, IF we are in the new nature, the cross has already killed the old nature.

Notice the word consistently, then the words can and if bolded.
That's saying the same as stay obedient, so what's the problem with staying obedient?
Any friend will get along with another friend. Not go contrary to them.

Thats why Paul says to pray without ceasing

 

[Frogster]

get all of them, not just the law part...come on, you can do it....go froggy, you can find out from the text what the elementary teachings are.

Why can't you see it is twofold? Both were at issue in the book, and you seem to deny that, and that they were called to leave the elementary as I have been stressing al along, in Hebrews, and Galatians..

My point stands. You want to argue about what the elementary is, while the word needs no definition, t he gildren, or as said below, the INFANT.


Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

14. strong meat—"solid food."

them … of full age—literally, "perfect": akin to "perfection" (Heb 6:1).

by reason of use—Greek, "habit."

senses—organs of sense.

exercised—similarly connected with "righteousness" in Heb 12:11.

to discern both good and evil—as a child no longer an infant (Isa 7:16): so able to distinguish between sound and unsound doctrine. The mere child puts into its mouth things hurtful and things nutritious, without discrimination: but not so the adult. Paul again alludes to their tendency not to discriminate, but to be carried about by strange doctrines, in Heb 13:9.


Bottom line, legalsim is elemental, and other things can be too. you are trying to isolate the text, from the whole of the context of the whole of the book.


How am i wrong about stoicheion?

 

[Frogster]

The reason that it is an inner work is because it goes against the nature that we have to deal with while we are on this earth. Peter advises to add to our discipline gentleness, kindness, longsuffering, tolerance, brotherly love because it is not a natural occurance and it takes daily stopping, starting, picking up the cross and following Him.
Yes they probably do have to argue with themselves until they can submit to the commands of Christ until the discipline produces a disciple of Christ.

*************************

Originally Posted by Frogster View Post
..... hebrews was about how they should be leaving the elementals of Judaistic rituals bhind, they were stalled, or reverting backwards..to works, obedience mindsets.

The higher end, was to walk with a cleansed conscience in Hebrews, not elementalism, dead works. 9:14.


soooo

*********************************

Rituals of laying on of hands, repentance, and elementary teachings were to give place to a higher meatier walk. According to Peter that would be aligning self to Him who gave His precious blood for us by applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and so on so as to continually be progressing in our walk. Those who neglect that cannot be assured of their salvation.
John says to continue in love so that also takes constant vigilance of bringing everything to Him, cleansing of the conscience takes coming to Him in prayer.

People who object to workbased obedience are looking at outward acts for the sake of human reward. The inner work takes a yeilding to the Spirit daily for His work to be wrought in us.

BUT I think that if any do the work that feeds, adds dignity, clothes, visits the downtrodden for nothing more than a reward in heaven, my bet is that they will recieve it.
__________________

Hi, yes thanks, i read this post.

 

[Frogster]

get all of them, not just the law part...come on, you can do it....go froggy, you can find out from the text what the elementary teachings are.

what is the stoicheion here? Judaism or not?


4:3 In the same way we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world.

it is used in 5:12 also, it all shows the same things, go on to maturity from any baby stuff.

 

[Frogster]

get all of them, not just the law part...come on, you can do it....go froggy, you can find out from the text what the elementary teachings are.

where is that post that you say i said the law died?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Hi, yes thanks, i read this post.

Then my question to you is what is one to leave the elementary (milk) (legalism) behind to continue on to the (meat) (spiritual) mean to you since you have no comment on it being an inner working

 

[Frogster]

Then my question to you is what is one to leave the elementary (milk) (legalism) behind to continue on to the (meat) (spiritual) mean to you since you have no comment on it being an inner working

Actually, I love inner things, the kingdom is in us.

The text I posted, is about going on to faith.

The gospel faith was hidden, prior to the asvent of it. So to me, the real riches, and the meat, is walking by faith, which does not involve flesh.

The just shall live by faith, the watchword of the reformation, used 3 times in the NT.

To me that is the maturity, because everything comes by faith. We received the Spirit by faith, not by our efforts.

Gal 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?


That was the chronological evolution that unfolded, the Spirit came after the age of law, the age of children.


Sonship, the mature age, was when the Spirit came, when the sons were no longer under tutors.



gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”

Thanks, frog.

 

[Frogster]

get all of them, not just the law part...come on, you can do it....go froggy, you can find out from the text what the elementary teachings are.

The dead works were obviously about Judaism, and washings in the plural were about the temple, unless you can show me where Christianity has several washings.

What other works would the Jewish Chrisitans be under in 6:1?

Same here, so lets no act like judaism was not a pert of this, but again, the point I stressed was about leaving the elementalism, and 5:12. And gal 4 confirms it.



9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

So that settles that!

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I think this is a necessary division . people need the written code to survive or grasp the idea of God and live their lives a certain way . other people have taken hold of another aspect of God such as the Holy Spirit in such a way that this form of existence being forced on them causes them to drown . yes . back again to the fish . and the frog . and the stone .
.
people who drink the water of the word separately from the wind of God because like the beasts and humans .. are above ground . and no longer under the water . no longer under the written code . now if those in the water relying on water only could see the harmony of the new whole creation .. there wouldn't be so much squabbling over what "the one right way is" when we interact .

 

[razzelflabben]

Oh come on, the whole book is about leaving legalsitic Judaism and i proved my point using gal 4, and the elementalism was law, that fact you ignore.

Why?

Elementalism is in 5:12. No?

Were they to leave the elementary or not?


lol..you're acting like you got me or something, no way, and please, prove me wrong about gal 4.

Frog man, I simply asked you to look at what the text in question actually tells us not what you want it to say, so let me cut and paste the text and point out a few things to you.

Therefore, leaving the elementary message about the Messiah,

question 1, is it talking about the Jewish traditions as you originally said? No it is talking about the message of the Messiah, a Messiah that the Jews did not believe in. IOW's it is talking about going to the cross and stopping there. But keep looking, it clarifies some things for us.

let us go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works,

Now we see that we are not to return to the moment of salvation, which is an elementary teaching (salvation is)

faith in God,

faith in God is listed among the elementary teachings....iow's we already should be fully aware of these things and moving on to harder things than faith and salvation and the cross.

2 teaching about ritual washings, laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And we will do this if God permits.


And only now, do we talk about the rituals that many people try to put above God and His word. These are the things that we want to use to appease God even though the living God is not appeased by these things. The legalism that we talked about....but what then is the deeper things of God? Well, let's look at the text and see.


4 For it is impossible to renew to repentance those who were once enlightened, who tasted the heavenly gift, became companions with the Holy Spirit, 5 tasted God’s good word and the powers of the coming age, 6 and who have fallen away, because, to their own harm, they are recrucifying the Son of God and holding Him up to contempt.

It says it is impossible to go our own way and then return to God (for the true believer) because that would be to crucify Christ all over again. IOW's the deeper things of God are obedience that is consistent with our new man.

7 For ground that has drunk the rain that has often fallen on it and that produces vegetation useful to those it is cultivated for receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it produces thorns and thistles, it is worthless and about to be cursed, and will be burned at the end.

And as more than one of us has pointed out to you, the deeper teachings include the fruits of righteousness, iow's our obedience through the power of the indwelling HS

9 Even though we are speaking this way, dear friends, in your case we are confident of the better things connected with salvation.


Deeper things than merely our salvation....but what things would those be...well the text tells us.

10 For God is not unjust;


First, God's justice

He will not forget your work and the love you showed for His name when you served the saints—and you continue to serve them. 11 Now we want each of you to demonstrate the same diligence for the final realization of your hope, 12 so that you won’t become lazy but will be imitators of those who inherit the promises through faith and perseverance.

Ah, what does that say? Works of Love, remember, the NT law is the law of LOVE...so the deeper things of God are the works of Love. this is not works righteousness but rather a living out of our faith, we know that by vs. 11 and 12 where we are told to imitate and demonstrate our hope in the promises of God. We could go on, but I fear it would be a waste of time being that scripture doesn't seem to hold much weight with some here on this thread.

 

[razzelflabben]

Why can't you see it is twofold? Both were at issue in the book, and you seem to deny that, and that they were called to leave the elementary as I have been stressing al along, in Hebrews, and Galatians..

My point stands. You want to argue about what the elementary is, while the word needs no definition, t he gildren, or as said below, the INFANT.


Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

14. strong meat—"solid food."

them … of full age—literally, "perfect": akin to "perfection" (Heb 6:1).

by reason of use—Greek, "habit."

senses—organs of sense.

exercised—similarly connected with "righteousness" in Heb 12:11.

to discern both good and evil—as a child no longer an infant (Isa 7:16): so able to distinguish between sound and unsound doctrine. The mere child puts into its mouth things hurtful and things nutritious, without discrimination: but not so the adult. Paul again alludes to their tendency not to discriminate, but to be carried about by strange doctrines, in Heb 13:9.


Bottom line, legalsim is elemental, and other things can be too. you are trying to isolate the text, from the whole of the context of the whole of the book.


How am i wrong about stoicheion?

see my previous post, scripture is more than capable of interpreting scripture and intent for us.

BTW just for clarification, I am not talking about legalism and I have clarified that for you multiple times now.

 

[razzelflabben]

what is the stoicheion here? Judaism or not?


4:3 In the same way we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world.

it is used in 5:12 also, it all shows the same things, go on to maturity from any baby stuff.

Scripture is the authority by which I draw my understanding, not you as such, scripture stands just like I showed you

Two quick words, when I quote something, I am responding to it, so no need to go back and find the post,
also, when we study a passage, we always read it in context because from a literary standpoint, most text clarifies itself, thus the passage in question, clarifies for us what it intends to tell us about what is elementary and what is beyond. No guess work involved

 

[Frogster]

Scripture is the authority by which I draw my understanding, not you as such, scripture stands just like I showed you

Two quick words, when I quote something, I am responding to it, so no need to go back and find the post,
also, when we study a passage, we always read it in context because from a literary standpoint, most text clarifies itself, thus the passage in question, clarifies for us what it intends to tell us about what is elementary and what is beyond. No guess work involved

as far as both posts, i showed the Judaistic reference in Gal 4, and the burden of proof is on you disprove, not to sprawl all of that in your post, but to answer directly

What other dead works were the hebrews doing, besides judaism?

What are the numerous washings in Christianity?:o

Answer, it was Judaism, there are none ( numerous washings), so indeed there is judaism included in 5-6, not only that, but the point of emphasis was about leaving, and goint to maturity from elementalism.


So you can ignore all of that, but that won't help.

Gosh the whole book of galatians and Hebrews is so similar, leave the elementals, and in both books judaism was the issue. So so go ahead, strain at a gnat, even though i showed judaism in the verses.

Why do yo ustill ignore gal 4?

 

[Frogster]

see my previous post, scripture is more than capable of interpreting scripture and intent for us.

BTW just for clarification, I am not talking about legalism and I have clarified that for you multiple times now.

but my post was showing about leaving babyhood, the elementals, I have said that all along, lets not divert, thanks!

 

[Alithis]

well..ummm..yes. we died, I don't see your point, but the emphasis is, the law was died to, then Paul went onto live by the higher way, by faith. There is a sequence there, just like in Gal 4, the child grew, and then became anheir, leaving the childhood obedience classes. It is als seen in chaprer 3, no more grade school, bye bye to the tutor, hello Spirit. Chronologies in the text are important to note, because they show spiritual evolvement, growth, change, leaving the elementals already, like Heb 5;12.

That has been my premise all along, leave the elementals.

When we WERE children, it says, were....past tense...in 4:3.

No more>>>> stirct pedagogues.

Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,


No more govenors or guardians, or mangaers, they are for children..


4:2 but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by his father.

its getting rather weird how you equate everything back to the law .our relationship with God and journey into God ,who is eternal will be eternally guided by the Holy Spirit .. we cannot catch up to the eternal god who has no beginning and no end we will never cease getting to know him and it is an error to consider the Lord only a savior and friend ,he is also our LORD and God .and even the lord Jesus himself submitted in love and obedience to the father and so we do also because it is an evidence that the love of God is within us and at work through us .
Adam walked and talked with the lord in full relationship until he disobeyed ..so we see clearly that obedience is an absolute in remaining in relationship with God because the instruction given is given for our good always and when ignored leads to only our bad .We always obey the older the wiser the one who knows what we cannot know .And we need not always understand why he instructs us in certain things .. but law? its nothing to do with written Law and everything to do with HEARING his voice ,with loving him , with getting to know him
if meeting the lord JESUS were breathing in ..then obedience is breathing out