Does Romans 11:16-22 challenge Calvinism?

[Kilk1]

The Science of Botany studies how wild plants become domesticated or cultivated plants. Don't know if that would help in this discussion or not. Usually Science does help us to understand what we read in our Bible.

I'm sure the more we know about the science of grafting, the better we can understand the analogy in Romans 11. I agree!

 

[Kilk1]

Nothing 'causes' them to be grafted or broken off.

Yahuweh Grafts them in if He Wants to, and Yahuweh Breaks them off if He Wants to.
As Written, Yahuweh Does Whatever He Pleases To Do - With Perfect Righteousness and Judgment, with no iniquity at all, ever....

Verses 19-20 seem to say it's about faith versus unbelief: "You will say then, 'Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.' Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear" (NKJV, emphasis mine). Does this make sense?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I'm mainly directing the questions to Calvinists, but getting some non-Calvinist input is useful as well. Thanks!

Who do you think can give you a truthful answer ? An answer that will make a difference in your life ? A helpful answer leading to purity, obedience, and "the mind of Christ" ?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I'm sure the more we know about the science of grafting, the better we can understand the analogy in Romans 11. I agree!

Why are you even thinking about the science ? Can science explain anything spiritual ?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Verses 19-20 seem to say it's about faith versus unbelief: "You will say then, 'Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.' Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear" (NKJV, emphasis mine). Does this make sense?

What Yahuweh Says is always Truth. He is Correct, Right, and Perfect in All He Says.

 

[klutedavid]

Hello! I'm studying the Calvinism debate and looking at passages on both sides. The current passage I'm looking at is one that currently seems to go against Calvinism: Romans 11:16-22. I could be wrong; if so, could you answer the following questions of mine?

Hello Kilk1.

1 Are the branches individuals or groups?

The branches are two nations; the nation of Israel and the Gentile nations.

2. If groups, what do the two trees represent?
Two olive trees, one cultivated olive tree and one wild olive tree. The nation of Israel and the nation of the Gentiles; Gentile means not Jewish.

The root is Christ and the branches in an olive tree are attached to the root of the olive tree. The branches are not attached to a tree trunk on an olive tree.

3. What causes branches to be in the cultivated olive tree as opposed to the wild olive tree?

There are two answers to this question and at two levels.

The first is that the Jews represent the branches in the cultivated olive tree and this was a result of God's choice. That is God chose the nation of Israel and it is was therefore His will that Israel was a cultivated olive tree. So at one level a Gentile can convert to Judaism and therefore be a member of the cultivated olive tree.

The second level is that Gentiles who convert to a belief in Jesus Christ are grafted into the root. Hence, the Gentiles become a cultivated branch by virtue of being attached to the root.


4. Can branches grafted into the cultivated tree be cut off?

Yes, the text specifies that branches were cut off. Paul also warns the Gentiles that they can be severed for unbelief.

5. Can branches cut off from the cultivated tree be grafted in again?

Yes, severed branches can in fact be grafted back into the root. Paul states this to be true.

Romans 11:23
And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

There are two levels in the text and for this reason the text is difficult to understand.

 

[Blade]

Asking Him about love..short is "show me a branch that was no org of the vine. I am the vine you are the branches". As for this or that *ism.. pass. One God and many tents. One body. So what ever we wish to call that over hand foot..yeah.. your no different. One body.

 

[Kilk1]

What Yahuweh Says is always Truth. He is Correct, Right, and Perfect in All He Says.

Amen! Do you agree that the standard God uses to put those in the cultivated tree is their faith? Do you agree the standard God uses to cut off those in the tree is unbelief?

If so, great! If not, how do you explain verses 19-20: "You will say then, 'Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.' Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear" (NKJV, emphasis mine)?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Amen! Do you agree that the standard God uses to put those in the cultivated tree is their faith? Do you agree the standard God uses to cut off those in the tree is unbelief?

If so, great! If not, how do you explain verses 19-20: "You will say then, 'Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.' Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear" (NKJV, emphasis mine)?

The standard (spiritual) Yahuweh uses for anything cannot be understood by most people. (the flesh/ the world/ society/ carnal) .....

Those (spiritual) who are granted understanding from heaven by Yahuweh, are like little children , knowing what is revealed by Yahuweh.

 

[Kilk1]

Hello Kilk1.

1 Are the branches individuals or groups?

The branches are two nations; the nation of Israel and the Gentile nations.

2. If groups, what do the two trees represent?
Two olive trees, one cultivated olive tree and one wild olive tree. The nation of Israel and the nation of the Gentiles; Gentile means not Jewish.

The root is Christ and the branches in an olive tree are attached to the root of the olive tree. The branches are not attached to a tree trunk on an olive tree.

3. What causes branches to be in the cultivated olive tree as opposed to the wild olive tree?

There are two answers to this question and at two levels.

The first is that the Jews represent the branches in the cultivated olive tree and this was a result of God's choice. That is God chose the nation of Israel and it is was therefore His will that Israel was a cultivated olive tree. So at one level a Gentile can convert to Judaism and therefore be a member of the cultivated olive tree.

The second level is that Gentiles who convert to a belief in Jesus Christ are grafted into the root. Hence, the Gentiles become a cultivated branch by virtue of being attached to the root.


4. Can branches grafted into the cultivated tree be cut off?

Yes, the text specifies that branches were cut off. Paul also warns the Gentiles that they can be severed for unbelief.

5. Can branches cut off from the cultivated tree be grafted in again?

Yes, severed branches can in fact be grafted back into the root. Paul states this to be true.

Romans 11:23
And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

There are two levels in the text and for this reason the text is difficult to understand.

Those answers seem to line up with what I've been thinking. Since those God grafts in "by faith" (believers) can be broken off, does this demonstrate that those who have been saved can later be lost?

 

[Kilk1]

The standard (spiritual) Yahuweh uses for anything cannot be understood by most people. (the flesh/ the world/ society/ carnal) .....

Those (spiritual) who are granted understanding from heaven by Yahuweh, are like little children , knowing what is revealed by Yahuweh.

But if the Bible tells us what Yahuweh's standard is, and it's faith vs. unbelief, then wouldn't this prove it's faith vs. unbelief?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

But if the Bible tells us what Yahuweh's standard is, and it's faith vs. unbelief, then wouldn't this prove it's faith vs. unbelief?

Not in the flesh,

but in spirit and in truth, considering all things as Yahuweh Clearly Says, yes.

(no proof needed - Yahuweh's Word is always True)

 

[klutedavid]

Those answers seem to line up with what I've been thinking. Since those God grafts in "by faith" (believers) can be broken off, does this demonstrate that those who have been saved can later be lost?

Nothing can separate a believer from Jesus Christ and that means no external force or entity.

Though someone can choose not to continue to believe in Jesus Christ. Thereby they allow themselves to be severed from the root of the cultivated olive tree.

 

[Kilk1]

Nothing can separate a believer from Jesus Christ and that means no external force or entity.

Though someone can choose not to continue to believe in Jesus Christ. Thereby they allow themselves to be severed from the root of the cultivated olive tree.

This is what I see when reading the text, too! What's important, though, is that this contradicts Calvinism, right? This is why I think the passage goes against Calvinism.

 

[Kilk1]

Not in the flesh,

but in spirit and in truth, considering all things as Yahuweh Clearly Says, yes.

(no proof needed - Yahuweh's Word is always True)

I agree; Yahuweh's word is always true. Since those God grafts in "by faith" (believers) can be broken off, does this demonstrate that those who have been saved can later be lost?

 

[klutedavid]

This is what I see when reading the text, too! What's important, though, is that this contradicts Calvinism, right? This is why I think the passage goes against Calvinism.

A Calvinist will interpret the text somewhat differently from the way that you read that text.

For example, a Calvinist would tell you that someone who once believed in Jesus, but now does not believe in Jesus. Was never chosen by God to believe in Jesus and that is why they did not persevere. The severed branches of the cultivated olive tree are those that are not elected to be saved.

The interpretation of the text, the way you read and understand the text, is what determines what you believe to be true in Christianity.

If you hold to the primary premise of the sovereignty of God then, you will interpret the text differently to someone who does not hold that as a primary premise.

 

[Kilk1]

A Calvinist will interpret the text somewhat differently from the way that you read that text.

For example, a Calvinist would tell you that someone who once believed in Jesus, but now does not believe in Jesus. Was never chosen by God to believe in Jesus and that is why they did not persevere. The severed branches of the cultivated olive tree are those that are not elected to be saved.

The interpretation of the text, the way you read and understand the text, is what determines what you believe to be true in Christianity.

If you hold to the primary premise of the sovereignty of God then, you will interpret the text differently to someone who does not hold that as a primary premise.

Yes, a Calvinist believes that those who turn to God in faith do so only by a direct operation of the Holy Spirit, and they believe such a direct operation is performed on the elect only. Therefore, they would interpret the passage to mean that if someone is broken off the cultivated olive tree, they never truly believed.

However, the reason I'm looking at this passage is because those grafted in do believe. The reason they're grafted in is because they "stand by faith," whereas those broken off fell by unbelief (v. 19-20). And who in this text does the grafting and breaking off, separating the believers from the unbelievers? God!

Therefore, the text doesn't allow for people with a false faith to be grafted in. God isn't going to make any mistakes when He grafts in believers. And yet God "may not spare" them (v. 21), meaning they could be lost. So the text requires that the saved may lose salvation.

Is my line of thought correct? If not, please let me know; I don't want to say anything inaccurate. Thanks!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I agree; Yahuweh's word is always true. Since those God grafts in "by faith" (believers) can be broken off, does this demonstrate that those who have been saved can later be lost?

Yes.

 

[Kilk1]

Yes.

That's what I see in the text as well. Since Calvinists believe that those who are saved can never be lost, that's the point I'm making. I'm open to hearing the other side (which is the whole purpose of this thread), but I'm having trouble seeing what an alternative could be.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

That's what I see in the text as well. Since Calvinists believe that those who are saved can never be lost, that's the point I'm making. I'm open to hearing the other side (which is the whole purpose of this thread), but I'm having trouble seeing what an alternative could be.

Why should there be any alternative ? Or, what do you mean ? "The other side" opposed to Yahweh's Way do not need a platform , although they have one "made to order" in the internet, eh!? No one and nothing is able to correct them if they don't care for nor seek the truth. In the end, LIFE, via the narrow way, or destruction, via the wide road.