Does Romans 11:16-22 challenge Calvinism?

[Kilk1]

Hello! I'm studying the Calvinism debate and looking at passages on both sides. The current passage I'm looking at is one that currently seems to go against Calvinism: Romans 11:16-22. I could be wrong; if so, could you answer the following questions of mine?

1. Are the branches individuals or groups?
2. If groups, what do the two trees represent?
3. What causes branches to be in the cultivated olive tree as opposed to the wild olive tree?
4. Can branches grafted into the cultivated tree be cut off?
5. Can branches cut off from the cultivated tree be grafted in again?

Thanks in advanced,
Kilk

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

1. Are the branches individuals or groups?

As written, men. One man, one branch.

4. Can branches grafted into the cultivated tree be cut off?

Obviously yes.

5. Can branches cut off from the cultivated tree be grafted in again?

Certainly. As written.

p.s. no concern nor thought for any -ism, so to speak....

 

[eleos1954]

Hello! I'm studying the Calvinism debate and looking at passages on both sides. The current passage I'm looking at is one that currently seems to go against Calvinism: Romans 11:16-22. I could be wrong; if so, could you answer the following questions of mine?

1. Are the branches individuals or groups?
2. If groups, what do the two trees represent?
3. What causes branches to be in the cultivated olive tree as opposed to the wild olive tree?
4. Can branches grafted into the cultivated tree be cut off?
5. Can branches cut off from the cultivated tree be grafted in again?

Thanks in advanced,
Kilk

Paul likens the faithful remnant in Israel to a noble olive tree, some of whose branches have been broken off (the unbelieving ones)—an illustration he used to prove that “God hath not cast away his people” (vs. 2). The root and trunk are still there.

Into this tree the believing Gentiles have been grafted. But they are drawing their sap and vitality from the root and trunk, which represent believing Israel.

What happened to those who rejected Jesus could happen also to the believing Gentiles. The Bible teaches no doctrine of “once saved, always saved.” Just as salvation is freely offered, it freely can be rejected. Though we have to be careful of thinking that every time we fall we are out of salvation, or that unless we are perfect we aren’t saved, we need to avoid the opposite ditch as well—the idea that once God’s grace covers us, there is nothing we can do, no choices we can make, that will take the provision of salvation away from us. In the end, only those who “continue in his goodness” (vs. 22) will be saved.

No believer should boast of his or her own goodness or feel any superiority over his or her fellow human beings. Our salvation was not earned; it was a gift. Before the Cross, before the standard of God’s holiness, we all are equal: sinners in need of divine grace, sinners in need of a holiness that can be ours only through grace. We have nothing of ourselves to boast about; our boasting should be only in Jesus and what He has done for us by coming into this world in human flesh, suffering our woes, dying for our sins, offering us a model for how we are to live, and promising us the power to live that life. In it all, we are completely dependent upon Him, for without Him we would have no hope beyond what this world itself offers.

 

[joshua 1 9]

1. Are the branches individuals or groups?

The branches are individual. The tree represents Israel. The wild branches grafted in represent the gentiles. They are adopted into the family of Abraham. There are three religions, the "Jewish" - Muslim & Christian religions. "Jewish" & Muslim descended from Abraham. Abraham is their DNA Patriarch. Christians are not natural descendants of Abraham, they are adopted into the family.

3. What causes branches to be in the cultivated olive tree as opposed to the wild olive tree?

Yes I can answer that. Paul uses the word: "goodness". This is a term that Paul gets from David and David very much followed the Law of God. For the Gentiles Paul would use the word: "right" or "righteous". This means we have to have right standing with God. We have to be righteous before God. Paul explains this back in chapter 3 "10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one." I had a conversation with Paul and he explained it to me. What he did was give me a packet of information to process. So I am still working on this myself.

If the "Jewish" can not be good enough, and we can not be right or righteous enough. Then it is though the Blood of Jesus and the annotating of the Holy Spirit in us. This of this as the river of life. We can get our feet wet but we need to go deeper into the river, up to our knees, up to our waste until we are over our head in the river. This represents the Holy Spirit of God in our life. There is healing, there is deliverance and we overcome painful memories in and though the River of Life, the HOLY Spirit of God that proceeds from the Throne of God.

4. Can branches grafted into the cultivated tree be cut off?
5. Can branches cut off from the cultivated tree be grafted in again?

Yes and yes. IF we do not continue with God we can be cut off. The natural branches can be grafted back in if they repent and return to God. That is why we have time give to us. Only some day our time will run out. We are limited in the amount of time we are given in the life that we are here to live.

The Holy Spirit of God helps us to understand. We cannot teach truth so much as people have to discover the truth for themselves. Even Paul explained this to me, I am still learning and processing this information that I received from Him. Over time we learn and we understand.

The Holy Spirit of God produces fruit in us: Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness & Self Control. This is the fruit we will produce when we are grafted into the tree. If we do not produce this fruit then we will be cut off and thrown into the fire and another branch will be grafted in.

 

[Jonaitis]

Hello! I'm studying the Calvinism debate and looking at passages on both sides. The current passage I'm looking at is one that currently seems to go against Calvinism: Romans 11:16-22. I could be wrong; if so, could you answer the following questions of mine?

1. Are the branches individuals or groups?
2. If groups, what do the two trees represent?
3. What causes branches to be in the cultivated olive tree as opposed to the wild olive tree?
4. Can branches grafted into the cultivated tree be cut off?
5. Can branches cut off from the cultivated tree be grafted in again?

Thanks in advanced,
Kilk

Instead of challenging Calvinism, this passage is one of the most discussed concerning other doctrinal dividing issues among Reformed Christians - the covenants. The other would be Hebrews. There are several interpretations.

The paedobaptist will use this to defend the concept of infant baptism, while most baptist will use this to attack such a concept and understand the real meaning behind it.

Brandon Adams wrote great articles on this years ago, and I'd rather share it first before expanding it in my own words.

It is recommended that you read this article first --> They are not all Israel, who are of Israel (Romans 9:7), before reading this one --> The Olive Tree (Romans 11:16-24). Great stuff here! He is a giant among us, if you have learned anything give him a shout out if you could!

 

[Kilk1]

As written, men. One man, one branch.


Obviously yes.

Certainly. As written.

p.s. no concern nor thought for any -ism, so to speak....

Thanks for the reply! Given your answers, I'd also like to know how you answer the third question, if that's okay: What causes branches to be in the cultivated olive tree as opposed to the wild olive tree? Thanks!

 

[Kilk1]

Paul likens the faithful remnant in Israel to a noble olive tree, some of whose branches have been broken off (the unbelieving ones)—an illustration he used to prove that “God hath not cast away his people” (vs. 2). The root and trunk are still there.

Into this tree the believing Gentiles have been grafted. But they are drawing their sap and vitality from the root and trunk, which represent believing Israel.

What happened to those who rejected Jesus could happen also to the believing Gentiles. The Bible teaches no doctrine of “once saved, always saved.” Just as salvation is freely offered, it freely can be rejected. Though we have to be careful of thinking that every time we fall we are out of salvation, or that unless we are perfect we aren’t saved, we need to avoid the opposite ditch as well—the idea that once God’s grace covers us, there is nothing we can do, no choices we can make, that will take the provision of salvation away from us. In the end, only those who “continue in his goodness” (vs. 22) will be saved.

No believer should boast of his or her own goodness or feel any superiority over his or her fellow human beings. Our salvation was not earned; it was a gift. Before the Cross, before the standard of God’s holiness, we all are equal: sinners in need of divine grace, sinners in need of a holiness that can be ours only through grace. We have nothing of ourselves to boast about; our boasting should be only in Jesus and what He has done for us by coming into this world in human flesh, suffering our woes, dying for our sins, offering us a model for how we are to live, and promising us the power to live that life. In it all, we are completely dependent upon Him, for without Him we would have no hope beyond what this world itself offers.

This basically sounds like how I'm understanding the passage!

 

[Kilk1]

The branches are individual. The tree represents Israel. The wild branches grafted in represent the gentiles. They are adopted into the family of Abraham. There are three religions, the "Jewish" - Muslim & Christian religions. "Jewish" & Muslim descended from Abraham. Abraham is their DNA Patriarch. Christians are not natural descendants of Abraham, they are adopted into the family.
Yes I can answer that. Paul uses the word: "goodness". This is a term that Paul gets from David and David very much followed the Law of God. For the Gentiles Paul would use the word: "right" or "righteous". This means we have to have right standing with God. We have to be righteous before God. Paul explains this back in chapter 3 "10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one." I had a conversation with Paul and he explained it to me. What he did was give me a packet of information to process. So I am still working on this myself.

If the "Jewish" can not be good enough, and we can not be right or righteous enough. Then it is though the Blood of Jesus and the annotating of the Holy Spirit in us. This of this as the river of life. We can get our feet wet but we need to go deeper into the river, up to our knees, up to our waste until we are over our head in the river. This represents the Holy Spirit of God in our life. There is healing, there is deliverance and we overcome painful memories in and though the River of Life, the HOLY Spirit of God that proceeds from the Throne of God.
Yes and yes. IF we do not continue with God we can be cut off. The natural branches can be grafted back in if they repent and return to God. That is why we have time give to us. Only some day our time will run out. We are limited in the amount of time we are given in the life that we are here to live.

The Holy Spirit of God helps us to understand. We cannot teach truth so much as people have to discover the truth for themselves. Even Paul explained this to me, I am still learning and processing this information that I received from Him. Over time we learn and we understand.

The Holy Spirit of God produces fruit in us: Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness & Self Control. This is the fruit we will produce when we are grafted into the tree. If we do not produce this fruit then we will be cut off and thrown into the fire and another branch will be grafted in.

Thanks for your reply! The general answers I'd give seem to match up with yours. Are you a Calvinist or a non-Calvinist?

 

[Kilk1]

Instead of challenging Calvinism, this passage is one of the most discussed concerning other doctrinal dividing issues among Reformed Christians - the covenants. The other would be Hebrews. There are several interpretations.

The paedobaptist will use this to defend the concept of infant baptism, while most baptist will use this to attack such a concept and understand the real meaning behind it.

Brandon Adams wrote great articles on this years ago, and I'd rather share it first before expanding it in my own words.

It is recommended that you read this article first --> They are not all Israel, who are of Israel (Romans 9:7), before reading this one --> The Olive Tree (Romans 11:16-24). Great stuff here! He is a giant among us, if you have learned anything give him a shout out if you could!

Thanks for the resources. I'll give them a look soon!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Thanks for the reply! Given your answers, I'd also like to know how you answer the third question, if that's okay: What causes branches to be in the cultivated olive tree as opposed to the wild olive tree? Thanks!

?? I'm not sure of your question, but think basically branches either grow were they are, or they grow were they are grafted in, if they grow at all.

 

[klutedavid]

Hello! I'm studying the Calvinism debate and looking at passages on both sides. The current passage I'm looking at is one that currently seems to go against Calvinism: Romans 11:16-22. I could be wrong; if so, could you answer the following questions of mine?

1. Are the branches individuals or groups?
2. If groups, what do the two trees represent?
3. What causes branches to be in the cultivated olive tree as opposed to the wild olive tree?
4. Can branches grafted into the cultivated tree be cut off?
5. Can branches cut off from the cultivated tree be grafted in again?

Thanks in advanced,
Kilk

Paul warns the Gentiles that they can be severed from the root also. Which means that anyone and everyone remains attached to the olive tree purely because of God's kindness.

The real problem is that Calvinism is based on an interpretation of the scripture. An interpretation of the scripture is at times different to any plain reading of the scripture.

Any interpretation tends to highlight certain ideas in the interpretation, an accepted premise to be more precise. For example, if God's sovereignty is the background idea one uses to read the scripture, then one usually just sees God's sovereignty as the cause of everything.

An interpretation based on the idea of say love being the primary premise, then that person when reading the scripture sees a different God in the scripture.

The history of Christianity reduces to some extent to the application of these interpretations of the scripture. Every major church movement reads the scripture somewhat differently to every other church movement.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Thanks for your reply! The general answers I'd give seem to match up with yours. Are you a Calvinist or a non-Calvinist?

I am a non Calvinist. God told Eve NOT to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. To say that God wanted her to do what He told her NOT to do is absurd. We choose life or death, blessing or curse, sickness or health, poverty or prosperity. Even every day we make many choices. There are choices people make that have huge consequences on their life. God requires us to choose and He holds us accountable for the choices that we make in life.

 

[joshua 1 9]

2. If groups, what do the two trees represent?

The Science of Botany studies how wild plants become domesticated or cultivated plants. Don't know if that would help in this discussion or not. Usually Science does help us to understand what we read in our Bible.

 

[Kilk1]

?? I'm not sure of your question, but think basically branches either grow were they are, or they grow were they are grafted in, if they grow at all.

Sorry if the wording was confusing. I mean, why are some branches grafted in the cultivated tree and others aren't? Is the answer in verses 19-20, perhaps?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Sorry if the wording was confusing. I mean, why are some branches grafted in the cultivated tree and others aren't? Is the answer in verses 19-20, perhaps?

'selah' (think on this)

WHO grafts them ?

 

[Kilk1]

Paul warns the Gentiles that they can be severed from the root also. Which means that anyone and everyone remains attached to the olive tree purely because of God's kindness.

The real problem is that Calvinism is based on an interpretation of the scripture. An interpretation of the scripture is at times different to any plain reading of the scripture.

Any interpretation tends to highlight certain ideas in the interpretation, an accepted premise to be more precise. For example, if God's sovereignty is the background idea one uses to read the scripture, then one usually just sees God's sovereignty as the cause of everything.

An interpretation based on the idea of say love being the primary premise, then that person when reading the scripture sees a different God in the scripture.

The history of Christianity reduces to some extent to the application of these interpretations of the scripture. Every major church movement reads the scripture somewhat differently to every other church movement.

Thanks for the reply! How would your interpretation answer the questions I posted?

 

[Kilk1]

'selah' (think on this)

WHO grafts them ?

Definitely God. But what is it about some that causes them to be grafted while others are broken off. Is the answer in verses 19-20?

 

[Kilk1]

Paul warns the Gentiles that they can be severed from the root also. Which means that anyone and everyone remains attached to the olive tree purely because of God's kindness.

The real problem is that Calvinism is based on an interpretation of the scripture. An interpretation of the scripture is at times different to any plain reading of the scripture.

Any interpretation tends to highlight certain ideas in the interpretation, an accepted premise to be more precise. For example, if God's sovereignty is the background idea one uses to read the scripture, then one usually just sees God's sovereignty as the cause of everything.

An interpretation based on the idea of say love being the primary premise, then that person when reading the scripture sees a different God in the scripture.

The history of Christianity reduces to some extent to the application of these interpretations of the scripture. Every major church movement reads the scripture somewhat differently to every other church movement.

Thanks for the reply! How would you answer the questions I posted, based on your interpretation?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Definitely God. But what is it about some that causes them to be grafted while others are broken off. Is the answer in verses 19-20?

Nothing 'causes' them to be grafted or broken off.

Yahuweh Grafts them in if He Wants to, and Yahuweh Breaks them off if He Wants to.
As Written, Yahuweh Does Whatever He Pleases To Do - With Perfect Righteousness and Judgment, with no iniquity at all, ever....

 

[Kilk1]

I am a non Calvinist. God told Eve NOT to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. To say that God wanted her to do what He told her NOT to do is absurd. We choose life or death, blessing or curse, sickness or health, poverty or prosperity. Even every day we make many choices. There are choices people make that have huge consequences on their life. God requires us to choose and He holds us accountable for the choices that we make in life.

I'm mainly directing the questions to Calvinists, but getting some non-Calvinist input is useful as well. Thanks!