Does Romans 11:16-22 challenge Calvinism?

[Mercy74]

But can they afterward be cut off from Israel?

They have not been cut off of their own family tree. Their attachment to Israel is only mental or spiritual. The gentiles stand by faith; faith is the substance of things hoped for, evidence of things not seen. The gentiles are not physically connected to Israel. Are you a legal citizen of the nation of Israel?

 

[Kilk1]

They have not been cut off of their own family tree. Their attachment to Israel is only mental or spiritual. The gentiles stand by faith; faith is the substance of things hoped for, evidence of things not seen. The gentiles are not physically connected to Israel. Are you a legal citizen of the nation of Israel?

I'm not a legal citizen of the modern nation of Israel, no.

 

[Mercy74]

I'm not a legal citizen of the modern nation of Israel, no.

Ephesians 2:12

 

[Jonaitis]

Hello! I apologize for taking a long time (20 days, apparently!) to reply. I looked into what you shared, and I was surprised to find that as far as the olive tree is concerned, I agree with the majority of what was said. Here's the summary from the end of the article:

1. Natural branches (Israel after the flesh) were vitally connected to the root (Abraham) apart from faith.
2. At one specific point in history (the end of the Old Covenant), unbelieving natural branches lost their connection to the root and were corporately cut off.
3. The branches that remained (Israel after the spirit) were only those vitally connected to the root (Abraham) through faith.
4. Wild believing branches (Israel after the spirit) were grafted in and vitally connected to the root (Abraham) through faith.
5. Believing branches will not be cut off because God preserves their faith.
6. There are now no branches in the olive tree without faith.
7. The tree represents Israel, both as type (Israel after the flesh) and later anti-type (Israel after the spirit).

What's interesting is that I actually agree with six of the seven bullets here; as far as I can tell, six of these are true. It's the fifth point that I'm disagreeing with. Brandon Adams gives his defense in the section titled, "Elect Excised?"

However, I believe that the text directly denies point 5. Instead of saying that no believing branches will be cut off by God, verses 20-21 explicitly states that "He may not spare" them (NKJV). At least that's how I'm seeing it; if I'm wrong, I don't want to be in error, so pointing out where my line of thought fails will only be appreciated. Thanks!

I do agree with Murray that the point of the warning is to rebuke vain boasting by throwing a hypothetical situation where if one does not remain in the faith they will be removed, not that one can truly fall away. He warns the reader with the circumstance of the unbelieving Jew for why they were broken off - they were faithless, and suggests that faith encourages humility and thankfulness, not pride and vain boasting.

 

[Kilk1]

I do agree with Murray that the point of the warning is to rebuke vain boasting by throwing a hypothetical situation where if one does not remain in the faith they will be removed, not that one can truly fall away. He warns the reader with the circumstance of the unbelieving Jew for why they were broken off - they were faithless, and suggests that faith encourages humility and thankfulness, not pride and vain boasting.

Thanks for the reply! I was surprised by how much I agree with Murray. I also agree that Paul's intention is to rebuke any potential for arrogance from Gentiles who were grafted into the cultivated tree. Where we disagree is here: From what I see, Paul's reason for them not to boast isn't merely that they could be lost in a hypothetical situation that could never actually happen; rather, it's that God really "may not spare" believing branches (Rom. 11:21, NKJV).

Doesn't the statement, "He may not spare you either" explicitly say it's possible that the believing branches will not be spared? If not, I'm open to hearing the other side, so long as evidence is given in support. Thanks!

 

[Jonaitis]

Thanks for the reply! I was surprised by how much I agree with Murray. I also agree that Paul's intention is to rebuke any potential for arrogance from Gentiles who were grafted into the cultivated tree. Where we disagree is here: From what I see, Paul's reason for them not to boast isn't merely that they could be lost in a hypothetical situation that could never actually happen; rather, it's that God really "may not spare" believing branches (Rom. 11:21, NKJV).

Doesn't the statement, "He may not spare you either" explicitly say it's possible that the believing branches will not be spared? If not, I'm open to hearing the other side, so long as evidence is given in support. Thanks!

It is a warning, just as we read in Hebrews 6:4-6 and many other places.

In the Calvinist soteriology, though we believe in the perseverance of the all true saints, we still believe warnings to remain faithful are effectual means used by God to encourage the church to endure and prove themselves the elect.

 

[Mercy74]

Thanks for the reply! I was surprised by how much I agree with Murray. I also agree that Paul's intention is to rebuke any potential for arrogance from Gentiles who were grafted into the cultivated tree. Where we disagree is here: From what I see, Paul's reason for them not to boast isn't merely that they could be lost in a hypothetical situation that could never actually happen; rather, it's that God really "may not spare" believing branches (Rom. 11:21, NKJV).

Doesn't the statement, "He may not spare you either" explicitly say it's possible that the believing branches will not be spared? If not, I'm open to hearing the other side, so long as evidence is given in support. Thanks!

Paul the Pharisee "physical" connection with Israel was broken off because of their unbelief. We know a family member may be separated from his family tree; however that branch is still "holy" although it may have traveled to a far away country and spent his full inheritance (prodigal son). Peter says he has never eaten anything unclean. That broken off branch may one day return home! Paul the Pharisee (much like the gentiles) now have only a spiritual connection with Israel while he preach the good news to the gentiles. Paul the Pharisee and the gentiles stand by faith in Yeshua the Christ.