Does righteousness ...

[SavedByGraceThruFaith]

Acts is not Torah or Neviim-level Scripture for me. With that said, your example shows me that the selling was ongoing for the group represented by the various and numerous individual persons. "the group continually sold their collective properties", with an indefinite end from the perspective of the writer of Acts. I see no problem with understanding this present participle.

Finally, πιστεύων does not only mean "believe". It also includes the idea of trust, compliance (obedience), and faithfulness. Jn 3:36 confirms this in a different way:

ὁ πιστεύων εἰς τὸν υἱὸν ἔχει ζωὴν αἰώνιον ὁ δὲ ἀπειθῶν τῷ υἱῷ οὐκ ὄψεται ζωήν ἀλλ᾽ ἡ ὀργὴ τοῦ θεοῦ μένει ἐπ᾽ αὐτόν - He who πιστεύων on the Son has everlasting life: and he that continually-ἀπειθῶν/not-comply/disobedience the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him.

One-time "Belief" alone does not save.

Jesus Christ disagrees with you.

John 11:25-26
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

So from verse 26, one-time belief and Jesus Christ said "shall never die.

 

[ananda]

Jesus Christ disagrees with you.

John 11:25-26
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

So from verse 26, one-time belief and Jesus Christ said "shall never die.

Again, "believeth" in both these verses are in the Greek present and shows an ongoing state. "He that continually-believeth/trusting/faithful in me".

Ongoing belief involves obedience. Lack of obedience shows lack of belief, trust, and faithfulness. "He that does not comply will not see life ...."

I think it's sad and borderline offensive that most translators continue to translate verses like these vaguely, e.g. "I believe". The time aspect is unclear in the English, and it can be taken both as "I (once) believe" or "I (continue to) believe".

 

[SavedByGraceThruFaith]

Again, "believeth" in both these verses are in the Greek present and shows an ongoing state. "He that continually-believeth/trusting/faithful in me".

Ongoing belief involves obedience. Lack of obedience shows lack of belief, trust, and faithfulness. "He that does not comply will not see life ...."

I think it's sad and borderline offensive that most translators continue to translate verses like these vaguely, e.g. "I believe". The time aspect is unclear in the English, and it can be taken both as "I (once) believe" or "I (continue to) believe".

No. Jesus clearly said:

"believeth in me shall never die" One time belief (believes) and shall never die.

 

[ananda]

No. Jesus clearly said: "believeth in me shall never die" One time belief (believes) and shall never die.

Sorry, but your translation is not my final authority.

No translation should be the final authority, the original languages have greater authority. The words in the original language encompasses more definitions than the one single definition chosen by any translator. Your translators chose one meaning out of a range of possible original meanings for any particular word, including this word "believeth".

It's like venn diagrams. The source language & word has its own realm of meanings, and the target language also has its own realm of meanings. The meaning of the word chosen by a translator in the target language will overlap that of the meaning of the source, but it is rarely if ever a perfect match.

 

[SavedByGraceThruFaith]

Sorry, but your translation is not my final authority.

No translation should be the final authority, the original languages have greater authority. The words in the original language encompasses more definitions than the one single definition chosen by any translator.

It's like venn diagrams. The source language & word has its own realm of meaning, and the target language also has its own realm of meaning. The word chosen by a translator in the target language may overlap that of the source, but it is rarely if ever a perfect match.

I have God's words in English.

Jesus Christ, who is God Almighty, said the following:

Mathew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mark 13:31
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Luke 21:33
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Obviously the words of Jesus Christ do not pass away.

So where can the words of Jesus Christ be?

 

[ananda]

I have God's words in English.

No, you have one interpretation of His Words in English.

Think about it: Is any English translation much more different than a commentary? The only major difference is that a regular commentary expounds on the meaning of the various hebrew & greek words in a much more expanded sense than that which we would call a "translation" today.

Both provides one man's (or a group's) personal understanding of what the underlying texts really says.

Jesus Christ, who is God Almighty, said the following:

Mathew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mark 13:31
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Luke 21:33
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Obviously the words of Jesus Christ do not pass away. So where can the words of Jesus Christ be?

I believe His perfect Word is in heaven today, in Himself. Messiah, to me, is the Word of YHWH embodied as a man. He Himself is the perfect and original "Bible".

What we have on earth today are simply descendant copies, translations, and interpretations. Much like we have disciples on earth today - men and women who are walking and talking copies of the Original, but not to be confused with the Original.

 

[SavedByGraceThruFaith]

No, you have one interpretation of His Words in English.

Think about it: Is any English translation much more different than a commentary? The only major difference is that a regular commentary expounds on the meaning of the various hebrew & greek words in a much more expanded sense than that which we would call a "translation" today.

Both provides one man's (or a group's) personal understanding of what the underlying texts really says.

I believe His perfect Word is in heaven today, in Himself. Messiah, to me, is the Word of YHWH embodied as a man. He Himself is the perfect and original "Bible".

What we have on earth today are simply descendant copies, translations, and interpretations. Much like we have disciples on earth today - men and women who are walking and talking copies of the Original, but not to be confused with the Original.

We can all agree that the originals are inspired. But the originals have not survived. Maybe some fragments remain somewhere. But all the words from the originals have not survived.

But wait, Jesus said His words shall not pass away. So where can the words of Jesus Christ be?

Maybe they are just in heaven and no place on the Earth.

But from the Old Testament we have the following:

Deuteronomy 30:12
It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

Maybe they are locked up in “the manuscripts,” in a language that few could understand, meaning most people would not have the word of God.

Deuteronomy 30:13
Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

In fact they are available for us in our own native tongue.

Deuteronomy 30:14
But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

The same conclusion comes from many passages in the Holy Bible.

For example, how can you study what you do not have?

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

If the scripture is only in the originals, which have passed away, how are they profitable as the next verse says?

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Maybe it is just the words that Jesus Christ spoke, the words in red, which are have not passed away. If that is true then all we would have is words out of context that would be very hard to understand without that context.

But Jesus Christ also said the law would not pass (Luke 16:17). Jesus expounded all things written about Him in the law, prophets, and psalms (Luke 24:44-45). Jesus Christ words are recorded in all 4 Gospels, Acts, 1 Corinthians, and Revelation. Acts has Paul as the apostles to the Gentiles chosen by Jesus Christ. Acts 28 leads right into Romans 1. It does not take much to know that the entire Holy Bible will not pass away. Anyone with the Holy Spirit should know this.

 

[ananda]

We can all agree that the originals are inspired. But the originals have not survived. Maybe some fragments remain somewhere. But all the words from the originals have not survived.But wait, Jesus said His words shall not pass away. So where can the words of Jesus Christ be? Maybe they are just in heaven and no place on the Earth.

The Original has survived in the form of Messiah Himself. He is the Perfect Word & will never pass away.

But from the Old Testament we have the following: Deuteronomy 30:12
It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

Maybe they are locked up in “the manuscripts,” in a language that few could understand, meaning most people would not have the word of God.

Deuteronomy 30:13
Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

In fact they are available for us in our own native tongue.

Deuteronomy 30:14
But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

The same conclusion comes from many passages in the Holy Bible.

For example, how can you study what you do not have?

We have diligent copies of the Original, but not perfect copies. YHWH only demands diligent obedience. What we have is "close enough", but some (copies in the original language) are closer (>) than others (faithful translations > faithful commentaries > faithful sermons, etc.)

 

[SavedByGraceThruFaith]

The Original has survived in the form of Messiah Himself. He is the Perfect Word & will never pass away.

We have diligent copies of the Original, but not perfect copies. YHWH only demands diligent obedience. What we have is "close enough", but some (copies in the original language) are closer (>) than others (faithful translations > faithful commentaries > faithful sermons, etc.)

What manuscripts are you referring to?
Does it include the corrupt manuscripts Vaticanus and Sinaiticus?

But from the Old Testament we have the following:

Deuteronomy 30:12
It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

Maybe they are locked up in “the manuscripts,” in a language that few could understand, meaning most people would not have the word of God.

Deuteronomy 30:13
Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

In fact they are available for us in our own native tongue.

Deuteronomy 30:14
But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.


I do not have Greek in my mouth. I have the word of God in English in the King James Bible.

 

[ananda]

What manuscripts are you referring to?
Does it include the corrupt manuscripts Vaticanus and Sinaiticus?

But from the Old Testament we have the following:

Deuteronomy 30:12
It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

Maybe they are locked up in “the manuscripts,” in a language that few could understand, meaning most people would not have the word of God.

Deuteronomy 30:13
Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

In fact they are available for us in our own native tongue.

Deuteronomy 30:14
But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

I do not have Greek in my mouth. I have the word of God in English in the King James Bible.

I prefer the Majority Text in the Greek, consisting of the consensus readings of all of the early Greek manuscripts.

"The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord." Mt 10:24. A translation is a disciple of its master, the source languages.

If there are any apparent conflict, the master takes precedence over his disciple.

 

[SavedByGraceThruFaith]

I prefer the Majority Text in the Greek, consisting of the consensus readings of all of the early Greek manuscripts.

"The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord." Mt 10:24. A translation is a disciple of its master, the source languages.

If there are any apparent conflict, the master takes precedence over his disciple.

Except that Jesus Christ said His words do not pass away.

I believe God Almighty.

 

[ananda]

Except that Jesus Christ said His words do not pass away.

I believe God Almighty.

So do I. His Words have not passed away.

 

[SavedByGraceThruFaith]

So do I. His Words have not passed away.

In the King James Bible in English.
Praise be to God.

 

[ananda]

In the King James Bible in English.
Praise be to God.

No, in the American Standard Version in English. Praise be to YHWH!

 

[SavedByGraceThruFaith]

No, in the American Standard Version in English. Praise be to YHWH!

King James for about 400 years.
The ASV for about 100 years.

So where was the persevered word of God in English for 400 years, not the ASV, but the KJB.

Although the ASV does agree with the KJB that if you believe then from then on everlasting life.

John 11:26
and whosoever liveth and believeth on me shall never die. Believest thou this?

 

[ananda]

King James for about 400 years.
The ASV for about 100 years.

So where was the persevered word of God in English for 400 years, not the ASV, but the KJB.

The Greek texts for about 2000 years.
Tyndale's Bible for about 500 years.
King James for about 400 years.

So where was the persevered word of God in English for 500 years, not the KJB, but the Tyndale Bible.

 

[SavedByGraceThruFaith]

The Greek texts for about 2000 years.
Tyndale's Bible for about 500 years.
King James for about 400 years.

So where was the persevered word of God in English for 500 years, not the KJB, but the Tyndale Bible.

Tyndale never finished the whole Bible. So it was not Tyndale's Bible.

 

[ananda]

Tyndale never finished the whole Bible. So it was not Tyndale's Bible.

If you're talking about the Protestant canon, then Matthew's Bible came well before the KJV.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Acts is not Torah or Neviim-level Scripture for me.

Really that doesn't matter in our discussion here. We are looking at usage, so if I can find particular uses of the present participle that discount what you are saying, whether biblical or extra-biblical, it lends support to my position.

With that said, your example shows me that the selling was ongoing for the group represented by the various and numerous individual persons. "the group continually sold their collective properties", with an indefinite end from the perspective of the writer of Acts. I see no problem with understanding this present participle.

So here is where you are just wrong. There isn't really any reason to argue. The relative time of this particular present participle is based on the principle verb. πωλοῦντες ἔφερον, or sold them and brought. Because brought is the principle verb here and is used in past tense, the participle also follows suit. For an opposite example, check out Matthew 10:22-

"and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved."

The principle verb ἔσεσθε is modifying the present participle μισούμενοι, which thus renders the present participle as future. This is koine itself, not me you are arguing with. If you wish to argue about this, take it up with great scholars like A.T. Robertson or Burton. Actually Burton has way more than Robertson on the participle. Here is one of his "general rules":

The tenses of the participle, like those of the other dependent moods, do not, in general, in themselves denote time. To this general rule the Future Participle is the leading exception, its functions being such as necessarily to express time-relations. The fundamental distinguishing mark of each of the other tenses is the same for the participle as for the dependent moods in general. The Present denotes action in progress; the Aorist, action conceived of indefinitely; the Perfect, completed action. These distinctions, however, impose certain limitations upon the classes of events which may be expressed by the participle of each tense, and thus indirectly and to a limited extent, the tense of the participle is an indication of the time-relation of the event denoted by it. Since for purposes of interpretation it is often needful to define the time-relation of an event expressed by the participle, it becomes expedient to treat the tenses of the participle apart from those of the dependent moods in general.

Take note that the present participle denotes progress and nothing more in regards to time. It just means "in progress". When it happens, it will be presently happening. The act of believing. Also notice that these rules all change depending on context of a particular event. So again, you cannot lay out a flat rule and judge all present participles by it. To do so is to misunderstand, and all of greek scholarship will disagree with you on it.

Finally, πιστεύων does not only mean "believe". It also includes the idea of trust, compliance (obedience), and faithfulness.

I agree with this.

Jn 3:36 confirms this in a different way:

ὁ πιστεύων εἰς τὸν υἱὸν ἔχει ζωὴν αἰώνιον ὁ δὲ ἀπειθῶν τῷ υἱῷ οὐκ ὄψεται ζωήν ἀλλ᾽ ἡ ὀργὴ τοῦ θεοῦ μένει ἐπ᾽ αὐτόν - He who πιστεύων on the Son has everlasting life: and he that continually-ἀπειθῶν/not-comply/disobedience the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him.

Yeah you can stop with the "continual". It's just "does not believe". Nothing more regarding tense.

One-time "Belief" alone does not save.

I never said it did. However, I am also not saying that belief must be perfect in its continuance either.

 

[SavedByGraceThruFaith]

If you're talking about the Protestant canon, then Matthew's Bible came well before the KJV.

Is that Bible available?

I have a facsimile of it. It is a large book.

Unfortunately it did not mark the apocryphal books as such, so it is not yet the word of God in English.

It is a good translation though.