Does morality exist without God?

[sunshine456]

I would say NO we wouldn't.

GOD the heavenly father was the one who set the standards of morality by his all eternal perfect goodness, grace and wisdom. He gave us the instructions, laws and examples to define and guide us with morality and righteousness.

"Praise be to GOD the heavenly father and his son lord JESUS CHRIST forever."

 

[sunshine456]

but which denomination is correct?...catholic, protestant (baptist, pentecostal, etc.),

This one I have a hard time contending with. I ask myself which one follows JESUS CHRIST principles to the key. Then I ask "How can there be divisions in the church, or how can it stand when it is against itself?"

There never is any easy answers, so we consult GOD the heavenly father or JESUS CHRIST his son in prayer of discernement to guide us in truth.

As for the first remark in your statement.....better to be safe than sorry I say. GOD the heavenly father will again lead you in discernment of the correct practice if you are one of his children.

 

[Loudmouth]

GOD the heavenly father was the one who set the standards of morality by his all eternal perfect goodness, grace and wisdom. He gave us the instructions, laws and examples to define and guide us with morality and righteousness.

"Praise be to GOD the heavenly father and his son lord JESUS CHRIST forever."

But how do we know that those commandments are moral?

 

[trientje]

But how do we know that those commandments are moral?

You don't know cause you do not accept God as your supreme moral giver. And when that is true you are left to make your own moral guidelines. There for making yourself to be a God. And that is called, in the world, post modernism. Where there is no such thing as good and evil, it boils down to individual preference. Therefore there is no way that I or any other believer can convince you of the morality of God. You have to first come to believe in him and accept him as your creator and recognize that he is the supreme moral giver

 

[Loudmouth]

Does morality exist without God?

Can morality exist with God? That is the real quesiton.

If morality can shift on the whims of God, is it really morality? Blindly following what God commands is not morality. It is obedience. "Because God says so" is not the same as "Because it is moral".

Even worse, if we were specially created by God, how can we know if God gave us the ability to even tell the difference between right and wrong? For all we know, God's commands are immoral, but we are unable to see it.

So the opposite question is just as important. If God does exist, can there be morality?

 

[Loudmouth]

You don't know cause you do not accept God as your supreme moral giver.

So how do you know that God's commandments are moral?

And when that is true you are left to make your own moral guidelines. There for making yourself to be a God.

No, I am making myself a source of morality, not a god. Those are two different things.

And that is called, in the world, post modernism.

No, it isn't. You have that concept wrong as well. Post-modernism is the view that all opinions are equal. I am not arguing that at all.

Where there is no such thing as good and evil, it boils down to individual preference.

I am saying that there is good and evil.

Therefore there is no way that I or any other believer can convince you of the morality of God.

So what convinced you that God was moral?

 

[trientje]

If morality can shift on the whims of God, is it really morality? Blindly following what God commands is not morality. It is obedience. "Because God says so" is not the same as "Because it is moral".

Numbers 23:19cGod is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Has he said, and will he not do it?
Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?



It says in the bible that John14:15"If you love me, keep my commands.


Blindly following God? I you love God you will obey his commands.



You do not understand because you do not know God. Therefore you do not understand that he is our creator and is supreme over heaven and earth. And that to obey him is to love him.

 

[trientje]

No, I am making myself a source of morality, not a god. Those are two different things.

No, In my Christian belief, God is the supreme moral giver. By making yourself a source of morality you are making yourself out to be a God. I know you don't understand that because you do not see anyone or anything more esteemed than you that you should take it upon yourself to make your own set of morals.

No, it isn't. You have that concept wrong as well. Post-modernism is the view that all opinions are equal. I am not arguing that at all.

All opinions EXCEPT the opinions you don't agree with? [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Postmodernism is the term used by sociologists and others to describe a way of thinking that has become very pervasive in the Western world over the last generation.It encompasses : [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]We all create our own reality, [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]There is no absolute truth.,[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Postmodernism does not rule out religion as did modernism, with its emphasis on human reason. However, the religions that are approved are very different from Christianity. You may believe what you want to. Go for what makes you feel good. Religion is cafeteria style. You choose what you like from what is spread in front of you, and put a meal together that suits your taste. There are strong links with paganism. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]All moral values are relative.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] Individualism [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]There is a strong emphasis on individualism. In the American court case Planned Parenthood v. Casey, in justifying the abortion licence, the court declared that it is up to each individual to determine "the concept of existence, of meaning, of the universe, and of the mystery of human life." [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]There is much rewriting of history [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Such "post modern" thinking has affected nearly all disciplines[/FONT]

I am saying that there is good and evil.

And how did you come to that conclusion?

So what convinced you that God was moral?

. Look, I'm no dummy. I carry degrees in medicine and science and the more I studied the more I was convinced that there had to be something bigger than myself. Something that creates and brings order to this world. The more I studied about the human body the more I was convinced of the miracle of creation. There is a verse in the bible It is in the book of Romans. Romans 1:20-For since the creation of the world . His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made.
I have witnessed, what I call miracles. Patients being completely healed defying all medical knowledge. I have watched unbelieving doctors just shake their heads, not understanding, not comprehending. And when it is explained as a miracle they still walk away in unbelief. There are some in this world who will not believe not matter what. Jesus himself could come down and manifest in front of them and they still will deny it is him. Belief comes through faith. I am commanded by the Lord to spread the word, knowing full well that many I talk to will always refuse to believe.

 

[Eudaimonist]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]All moral values are relative.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] Individualism [/FONT]

Moral relativism =/= Individualism.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[trientje]

Moral relativism =/= Individualism.


eudaimonia,

Mark

OK, whats your point?

 

[Loudmouth]

No, In my Christian belief, God is the supreme moral giver. By making yourself a source of morality you are making yourself out to be a God.

No, I'm not. A god is a supernatural deity. I am not. I decide for myself what is and isn't moral. That makes me a moral agent, not a god. I am a mortal being that is forced to follow the natural laws found in this universe, therefore I am not a god. Other cultures have pantheons of gods, some of whom are entirely immoral while other gods are fallible and prone to immmoral acts. Being a god and being a moral agent are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

I know you don't understand that because you do not see anyone or anything more esteemed than you that you should take it upon yourself to make your own set of morals.

There can be gods, and they are still gods even if I they are immoral and make immoral commandments. Being moral and being a god are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. Why is this so hard to understand?

All opinions EXCEPT the opinions you don't agree with?

Wow, I disagree with the opinions that I disagree with. Any more stunners?

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]

Postmodernism is the term used by sociologists and others to describe a way of thinking that has become very pervasive in the Western world over the last generation.It encompasses :

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]We all create our own reality, [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]There is no absolute truth.,

[/FONT]

I am saying that there is an objective truth, so how am I being a post-modernist?

And how did you come to that conclusion?

Through empathy and reason. I can determine what actions will cause me harm, pain, and discomfort. I can use empathy to determine that other people have those same emotions. I can also use reason to determine which of my actions will produce harm, pain, and discomfort in other people. That is the basis of morality, and it is how I determine that there is an objective good and evil given our shared ability for reason and empathy.

. Look, I'm no dummy. I carry degrees in medicine and science and the more I studied the more I was convinced that there had to be something bigger than myself. Something that creates and brings order to this world. The more I studied about the human body the more I was convinced of the miracle of creation. There is a verse in the bible It is in the book of Romans. Romans 1:20-For since the creation of the world . His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made.
I have witnessed, what I call miracles. Patients being completely healed defying all medical knowledge. I have watched unbelieving doctors just shake their heads, not understanding, not comprehending. And when it is explained as a miracle they still walk away in unbelief. There are some in this world who will not believe not matter what. Jesus himself could come down and manifest in front of them and they still will deny it is him. Belief comes through faith. I am commanded by the Lord to spread the word, knowing full well that many I talk to will always refuse to believe.

I didn't ask why you think God exists. I asked why you think God is moral. Neither of us will disagree that Hitler existed. Just because Hitler existed does not mean that he was moral. Those are TWO DIFFERENT QUESTIONS.

Also, one can create something and STILL BE IMMORAL. My parents created me, but that does not mean that everything they tell me to do will be guaranteed to be moral.

Do you understand the difference between a being having existence and a being having morality?

 

[Loudmouth]

Numbers 23:19cGod is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Has he said, and will he not do it?
Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

And what if the Bible is wrong? How would we know?

Blindly following God? I you love God you will obey his commands.

I am sure that there were people who loved Hitler and followed his commands. That didn't make them moral. Obedience is not morality. My dog is obedient, but my dog is not a moral agent. Do you understand the difference or not?

You do not understand because you do not know God. Therefore you do not understand that he is our creator and is supreme over heaven and earth. And that to obey him is to love him.

My parents created me, but that does not make them infallible sources of morality. Even if God created us, that does not guarantee that God is moral nor that God's commands are moral.

 

[trientje]

I decide for myself what is and isn't moral.

Exactly, because there are no absolutes in your mind. Every man makes his own morals, decides what is right and wrong. I believe that God is the absolute moral giver. And its this absolute stuff that you fight. Who gave you the authority to tell me whats right and wrong? People like you see God and his commandments as some form of imprisonment. we shake our fists at God, "your not the boss of me". this is called rebellion. So you establish what is and isn't moral? That IS making yourself out to be a god. You may delude yourseolf into thinking you are something apart from God. You may caste off the chains of comandments and come up with your own set of laws. But God mocks rebellion and what is more ridiculous than rebellion towards God? Rebelling against God's authority is a thing that earns his wrath. "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts."—Hebrews 8:10. God's laws are written in man's hearts. Even for unbelievers. So stop thinking that what you determine what is right and wrong is your creation.

 

[Loudmouth]

Exactly, because there are no absolutes in your mind.

There are absolutes in my mind, and that is what I base my moral judgements on.

I believe that God is the absolute moral giver.

How did you determine that what God commands is moral? What criteria did you use?

And its this absolute stuff that you fight.

No, it isn't. It is the relativism that I fight. It is the relativism of theists that can be the most destructive. They think that morality is relative to what their god commands. Moral relativism is precisely what theism leads to.

Who gave you the authority to tell me whats right and wrong?

No one did, and I never said that I have the authority to force you to follow my code of morality.

People like you see God and his commandments as some form of imprisonment. we shake our fists at God, "your not the boss of me".

Not at all. There are many great ideas and pieces of morality in the Bible. You appear to be projecting a bit. Do you not believe in Santa Claus because you don't want Santa Claus to be the boss of you? Or do you not believe in Santa Claus because Santa Claus does not exist?

So you establish what is and isn't moral? That IS making yourself out to be a god.

No, that is being a moral agent. Gods are supernatural, I am not. Gods are immortal. I am not.

You may delude yourseolf into thinking you are something apart from God. You may caste off the chains of comandments and come up with your own set of laws. But God mocks rebellion and what is more ridiculous than rebellion towards God? Rebelling against God's authority is a thing that earns his wrath. "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts."—Hebrews 8:10. God's laws are written in man's hearts. Even for unbelievers. So stop thinking that what you determine what is right and wrong is your creation.

Why, because you say so? Are you rebelling against the Qu'ran? Are you rebelling aginst the Book of Mormon? Are you rebelling against Zeus?

 

[Paradoxum]

Exactly, because there are no absolutes in your mind. Every man makes his own morals, decides what is right and wrong. I believe that God is the absolute moral giver. And its this absolute stuff that you fight. Who gave you the authority to tell me whats right and wrong?

Who gave you the authority to say that God is real and the author of morality?

By the way I do believe morality is objective, just not from God.

People like you see God and his commandments as some form of imprisonment. we shake our fists at God, "your not the boss of me". this is called rebellion. So you establish what is and isn't moral? That IS making yourself out to be a god. You may delude yourseolf into thinking you are something apart from God. You may caste off the chains of comandments and come up with your own set of laws. But God mocks rebellion and what is more ridiculous than rebellion towards God? Rebelling against God's authority is a thing that earns his wrath. "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts."—Hebrews 8:10. God's laws are written in man's hearts. Even for unbelievers. So stop thinking that what you determine what is right and wrong is your creation.

You know non-believers don/t believe in God?

 

[trientje]

There are absolutes in my mind, and that is what I base my moral judgements on.

Exactly, absolutes in YOUR mind not from the mind of God. You have absolutes in your mind, your neighbor has different absolutes and so on. When you believe in one supreme being where he is author of absolute morality and judgement then all who believe in him have the same moral teachings and laws.

How did you determine that what God commands is moral? What criteria did you use?

How can I say that God is holy, God is and always has been, God is our creator and not believe that he has perfect morality and is not all wise? Criteria? Read his word.

No, it isn't. It is the relativism that I fight. It is the relativism of theists that can be the most destructive. They think that morality is relative to what their god commands. Moral relativism is precisely what theism leads to.

God's laws are absolute. You are skewing the term relativism cause God's laws never change they are not relative to changing government or societies or anything of this world.

Why, because you say so? Are you rebelling against the Qu'ran? Are you rebelling aginst the Book of Mormon? Are you rebelling against Zeus?

Now that statement is a perfect example of relativism. There are no absolutes. Everything and anything can be good or true. In my belief there is one God, one book {the bible) and thats my beliefs.

 

[trientje]

Who gave you the authority to say that God is real and the author of morality?

By the way I do believe morality is objective, just not from God.

Who gave me the authority? Perfect example of post modernism where there is no such thing as right and wrong, good and evil. It all boils down to individual preference. You also have deluded yourself into thinking you are something apart from God. So you believe you have objective morality? Your source?

You know non-believers don/t believe in God?

That is sad. But let me tell you this. You may not believe but Jesus loves you. But because of your sin Isaiah 59:2- But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.I hope that you will consider confessing your sins and accepting him into your life. so that he will once again hear your prayers and count you as one to enter the kingdom.

 

[Skavau]

Exactly, absolutes in YOUR mind not from the mind of God.

Okay. So?

What is the relevance of this? We're atheists. We do not believe God exists and even if he did the "absolutes" he asserts can and should be scrutinised, questioned and even abandoned if necessary. That God declares X does not make X correct.

You have absolutes in your mind, your neighbor has different absolutes and so on. When you believe in one supreme being where he is author of absolute morality and judgement then all who believe in him have the same moral teachings and laws.

This, of course says nothing as to whether or not the "absolutes" asserted by the "supreme being" are actually moral.

Might does not equal right.

How can I say that God is holy, God is and always has been, God is our creator and not believe that he has perfect morality and is not all wise? Criteria? Read his word.

I don't know how you can say it would appearing circular and semantically redundant. Someone calling God "holy" is white noise to me. The word "holy" literally means nothing to me. It is merely used as a substitute for pious or honourable (but meant in a divine sense). It is an asserted characteristic. What even makes God "holy" objectively? What does it mean to be "holy"?

God's laws are absolute. You are skewing the term relativism cause God's laws never change they are not relative to changing government or societies or anything of this world.

God's law can change. It depends on what God wants to do. If God decided to tear up the rule book and lay down a completely new one you and every other theist would by consequence have to adapt and pick up those new rules.

Theistic morality establishes only obedience to authority as a virtue and nothing else.

Now that statement is a perfect example of relativism. There are no absolutes. Everything and anything can be good or true. In my belief there is one God, one book {the bible) and thats my beliefs.

No, it is an illustration of how you do not understand common ground. It is nonsensical to suggest that someone is rebelling against a concept they don't believe in.

To do so would be akin to suggest you are rebelling against Allah.

 

[trientje]

Okay. So?

What is the relevance of this? We're atheists. We do not believe God exists and even if he did the "absolutes" he asserts can and should be scrutinised, questioned and even abandoned if necessary. That God declares X does not make X correct.

OK, you don't believe in God. So whats the point here? Discussion is irrelevant. If you don't believe in God then there is nothing to scrutinise or question is there?

This, of course says nothing as to whether or not the "absolutes" asserted by the "supreme being" are actually moral.

Might does not equal right.

You have not concept of who God is so therefore why even discuss it

I don't know how you can say it would appearing circular and semantically redundant. Someone calling God "holy" is white noise to me. The word "holy" literally means nothing to me. It is merely used as a substitute for pious or honourable (but meant in a divine sense). It is an asserted characteristic. What even makes God "holy" objectively? What does it mean to be "holy"?

Do you really care what holy means?

God's law can change. It depends on what God wants to do. If God decided to tear up the rule book and lay down a completely new one you and every other theist would by consequence have to adapt and pick up those new rules.

Theistic morality establishes only obedience to authority as a virtue and nothing else.

God's law can change? Being an atheist you sure assert that you know a lot about this God that you don't believe exists.

No, it is an illustration of how you do not understand common ground. It is nonsensical to suggest that someone is rebelling against a concept they don't believe in.

Its hard for me to truly understand that there are people living in this world that don't believe in God. It is nonsensical of me. You are right. But then, like in the proceeding you claim to know so much about him. Thats nonsensical also.

 

[Paradoxum]

Who gave me the authority? Perfect example of post modernism where there is no such thing as right and wrong, good and evil.

I was just copying you, when you said "Who gave you the authority to tell me whats right and wrong?" So are you claiming to be a post modernist?

Furthermore I never said there was no right wrong... I said the exact opposite, so I'm not sure why you said what you said.

It all boils down to individual preference. You also have deluded yourself into thinking you are something apart from God. So you believe you have objective morality? Your source?

If you are asking where I think objective morality comes from, I mean this: Morality is action objectively. Eg: I don't consider myself, my will, or my desires to be important than others. If I want to kill someone for their money it is wrong because that treats myself as more important than someone else. Thus acting counter to objectivity.

That is sad. But let me tell you this. You may not believe but Jesus loves you. But because of your sin Isaiah 59:2- But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.I hope that you will consider confessing your sins and accepting him into your life. so that he will once again hear your prayers and count you as one to enter the kingdom.

I did believe in God, but since I don't now, telling me what the Bible says doesn't help.