Does morality exist without God?

razeontherock · Aug 19, 2011

Wayte said:
I would argue how dare you deny people they're sexual freedom.

Do you have any idea what the Bible says on this topic? You might start here:

"Neither be ye idolaters, as [were] some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. [sexually] Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. (1 Corinthians 10:7-12)

It is Romans 6 that deals with giving yourself to sin, being the last free thing you will ever do ...

consequences are a bummer! "To err is human, to forgive Divine, and -
neither is the policy of the US Marines"

Mr. Pedantic · Aug 19, 2011

razeontherock said:
Do you have any idea what the Bible says on this topic? You might start here:

"Neither be ye idolaters, as [were] some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. [sexually] Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. (1 Corinthians 10:7-12)

It is Romans 6 that deals with giving yourself to sin, being the last free thing you will ever do ...

consequences are a bummer! "To err is human, to forgive Divine, and -
neither is the policy of the US Marines"

Do you have any idea in how little regard I hold the Bible as a source of evidence for...well...anything? Especially for moral judgments? Let me ask the question again, because last I saw, the question was not answered.

Why do you need the Bible to tell you what to think about moral issues?

razeontherock · Aug 19, 2011

Mr. Pedantic said:
Do you have any idea in how little regard I hold the Bible as a source of evidence for...well...anything?

1) The topic of "evidence" was not raised.

2) The bible is not held as a "source of evidence."

3) In answer to this question - yes I did. Long ago. Probably after seeing one post of yours.

Mr. Pedantic said:
Let me ask the question again, because last I saw, the question was not answered.

Why do you need the Bible to tell you what to think about moral issues?

Are you going for red herring, or strawman? Doesn't matter, they are both addressed alike. [Has it crossed your mind nobody answered your question for this reason?

Morality is a human concept. The Bible tells us how to have a relationship with G-d.

Aryn9189 · Aug 19, 2011

razeontherock said:
Do you have any idea what the Bible says on this topic? You might start here:

"Neither be ye idolaters, as [were] some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. [sexually] Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. (1 Corinthians 10:7-12)

It is Romans 6 that deals with giving yourself to sin, being the last free thing you will ever do ...

consequences are a bummer! "To err is human, to forgive Divine, and -
neither is the policy of the US Marines"

I have a kind of silly question. The person you're quoting professes agnosticism. Why are you arguing with him using the Bible? You can't use the Bible against someone who isn't a Christian. It's pointless.

Mr. Pedantic · Aug 19, 2011

razeontherock said:
1) The topic of "evidence" was not raised.

2) The bible is not held as a "source of evidence."

3) In answer to this question - yes I did. Long ago. Probably after seeing one post of yours.

Are you going for red herring, or strawman? Doesn't matter, they are both addressed alike. [Has it crossed your mind nobody answered your question for this reason?

Morality is a human concept. The Bible tells us how to have a relationship with G-d.

So, if you believe what you say, then why are you using the Bible to inform your decisions or choices, or quoting it with the intention of using it to inform other people's decisions or choices?

And if the Bible is not a source of evidence, when why do people on this forum use it as such in defence of opinions or beliefs against current scientific consensus? As an aside, if the Bible is not a source of evidence, then how can it be anything but fiction? And if the Bible is fiction, then why do you use it as non-fiction?

And it's gratifying that at least someone reads what I write.

Wayte · Aug 19, 2011

razeontherock said:
Do you have any idea what the Bible says on this topic? You might start here:

"Neither be ye idolaters, as [were] some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. [sexually] Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. (1 Corinthians 10:7-12)

It is Romans 6 that deals with giving yourself to sin, being the last free thing you will ever do ...

consequences are a bummer! "To err is human, to forgive Divine, and -
neither is the policy of the US Marines"

Well that's why I said i would argue it

razeontherock · Aug 19, 2011

Wayte said:
Well that's why I said i would argue it

Ok then. This is not only a toughie, but for many THE toughest issue. And not just when we're 20 ...

razeontherock · Aug 19, 2011

Aryn9189 said:
The person you're quoting professes agnosticism. Why are you arguing with him using the Bible? You can't use the Bible against someone who isn't a Christian. It's pointless.

Hi! Haven't met you here before. You'll notice I wasn't arguing with him, and basically try to avoid arguing altogether. I also don't use things against someone. (We're not enemies)

Aryn9189 · Aug 19, 2011

Nice to meet you, I'm Aryn. Sorry if I used the wrong terms. What do you prefer? Discuss? Debate? I only meant, if you're in a debate or discussion or whatever you call in, and the person you're debating doesn't believe the Bible is accurate, then citing the Bible as your source is not going to help your case.

razeontherock · Aug 19, 2011

Mr. Pedantic said:
So, if you believe what you say, then why are you using the Bible to inform your decisions or choices, or quoting it with the intention of using it to inform other people's decisions or choices?

And if the Bible is not a source of evidence, when why do people on this forum use it as such in defence of opinions or beliefs against current scientific consensus? As an aside, if the Bible is not a source of evidence, then how can it be anything but fiction? And if the Bible is fiction, then why do you use it as non-fiction?

HA - good questions! In order:

"Using the Bible to inform my choices." Hopefully G-d will view my life in that way - but I fear I'd do better trusting in His Mercy!

Quoting it in this instance was not so much to inform another's decision, but merely to ask if he was aware what it said on the topic. Turns out, he is. Establishing that makes it possible for conversation to proceed.

"if the Bible is not a source of evidence, when why do people on this forum use it as such in defence of opinions or beliefs against current scientific consensus?"

Touche! Misguided Faith, due to either ill-informed or malicious leaders?

" if the Bible is not a source of evidence, then how can it be anything but fiction?"

This is a deeper question, w/o such an easy answer. (I like those)

If you read a scientific paper, does it contain the evidence or merely reference it? Isn't the greater joy in the find being covered, experienced by those who first did the experiment / found the results themselves hands-on, and their peers who repeated the results confirming their findings?

If you can follow the analogy, this is Christian fellowship. We find principles to be true based on experience, and see those reflected in the Word. We see them repeated in others.

Yet the Bible itself is not the evidence. To put it in OT terms, G-d "becomes" something new to us, as we know Him in a way we did not previously know Him. Yet He Himself does not change. (This gets at the definition and meaning of "building an altar")

So you raise an interesting question:

does G-d perceive the Bible to be fictitious in the lives of many professing believers?

Mr. Pedantic · Aug 19, 2011

razeontherock said:
Hi! Haven't met you here before. You'll notice I wasn't arguing with him, and basically try to avoid arguing altogether. I also don't use things against someone. (We're not enemies)

ar·gue

   [ahr-gyoo]

Show IPA verb, -gued, -gu·ing.
verb (used without object) 1. to present reasons for or against a thing: He argued in favor of capital punishment.

2. to contend in oral disagreement; dispute: The Senator argued with the President about the new tax bill.

verb (used with object) 3. to state the reasons for or against: The lawyers argued the case.

4. to maintain in reasoning: to argue that the news report must be wrong.

5. to persuade, drive, etc., by reasoning: to argue someone out of a plan.

6. to show; prove; imply; indicate: His clothes argue poverty.

razeontherock · Aug 19, 2011

Aryn9189 said:
Nice to meet you, I'm Aryn. Sorry if I used the wrong terms. What do you prefer? Discuss? Debate? I only meant, if you're in a debate or discussion or whatever you call in, and the person you're debating doesn't believe the Bible is accurate, then citing the Bible as your source is not going to help your case.

Hi Aryn, I'm Ray. Depending on the objective, your point is valid; but in this instance, I think it served rather well. We'll see what develops ...

what is the source (or standard) of your morality?

razeontherock · Aug 19, 2011

Mr. Pedantic said:
ar·gue

   [ahr-gyoo] Show IPA verb, -gued, -gu·ing.
verb (used without object) 1. to present reasons for or against a thing: He argued in favor of capital punishment.

2. to contend in oral disagreement; dispute: The Senator argued with the President about the new tax bill.

verb (used with object) 3. to state the reasons for or against: The lawyers argued the case.

4. to maintain in reasoning: to argue that the news report must be wrong.

5. to persuade, drive, etc., by reasoning: to argue someone out of a plan.

6. to show; prove; imply; indicate: His clothes argue poverty.

NOW you are living up to your username!

Aryn9189 · Aug 19, 2011

My moral code is internal. I try to live in a way that causes the least amount of harm possible. I respect all life, and base my morality on that, on trying to do the right thing and not hurt anyone else, regardless of species.

Mr. Pedantic · Aug 19, 2011

razeontherock said:
HA - good questions! In order:

"Using the Bible to inform my choices." Hopefully G-d will view my life in that way - but I fear I'd do better trusting in His Mercy!

Quoting it in this instance was not so much to inform another's decision, but merely to ask if he was aware what it said on the topic. Turns out, he is. Establishing that makes it possible for conversation to proceed.

If the Bible is not used as a form of evidence, for some prior assumption or claim, then what is its relevance to the argument?

"if the Bible is not a source of evidence, when why do people on this forum use it as such in defence of opinions or beliefs against current scientific consensus?"

Touche! Misguided Faith, due to either ill-informed or malicious leaders?

Whenever I see someone on this forum referencing science incorrectly or misrepresenting the scientific opinion, even someone I generally agree with, I will call the point to their attention if possible. Why do you, then, not do the same? Should your priority in discussion not be defending those who hold the same general view as you, but rather defending the truth? If you feel they are misguided in quoting the Bible as evidence for such arguments, why do you not denounce their actions?

" if the Bible is not a source of evidence, then how can it be anything but fiction?"

This is a deeper question, w/o such an easy answer. (I like those)

If you read a scientific paper, does it contain the evidence or merely reference it? Isn't the greater joy in the find being covered, experienced by those who first did the experiment / found the results themselves hands-on, and their peers who repeated the results confirming their findings?

You are quibbling. Answer the question, please.

does G-d perceive the Bible to be fictitious in the lives of many professing believers?

How can a non-existent entity hold any opinion about anything?

razeontherock · Aug 19, 2011

Mr. Pedantic said:
If the Bible is not used as a form of evidence, for some prior assumption or claim, then what is its relevance to the argument?

Objection: asked and answered.

Mr. Pedantic said:
Whenever I see someone on this forum referencing science incorrectly or misrepresenting the scientific opinion, even someone I generally agree with, I will call the point to their attention if possible. Why do you, then, not do the same? Should your priority in discussion not be defending those who hold the same general view as you, but rather defending the truth? If you feel they are misguided in quoting the Bible as evidence for such arguments, why do you not denounce their actions?

Based on the content in this post, it seems reasonable to conclude that if I actually answered your driving question, (at the end) that you would not perceive it. Which does not mean there is not good reason.

Mr. Pedantic said:
You are quibbling. Answer the question, please.

The direct answer is there, yet you do not perceive it.

Mr. Pedantic said:
How can a non-existent entity hold any opinion about anything?

Said non-existence is merely your lack of perception. Which makes me curious re: how much of the same types of opinions are held (In common with the One you fail to perceive is existing)

razeontherock · Aug 19, 2011

Aryn9189 said:
My moral code is internal. I try to live in a way that causes the least amount of harm possible. I respect all life, and base my morality on that, on trying to do the right thing and not hurt anyone else, regardless of species.

I accept that

This is quite Biblical! (Just a FYI) Have you ever read the book of Judges, or know it's central thrust?

Aryn9189 · Aug 19, 2011

Nope. I don't know much about the Old Testament, really. I know the New Testament pretty well though. I read it a lot when I was a kid, mostly because there was no interpreter in my church and I was bored, and it was easier than the Old Testament. (Honestly, I think if more Christians actually followed Jesus' teachings, the world would be a lot more peaceful.)

razeontherock · Aug 19, 2011

Aryn9189 said:
I think if more Christians actually followed Jesus' teachings, the world would be a lot more peaceful.

Easier said than done!

Mr. Pedantic · Aug 19, 2011

razeontherock said:
Objection: asked and answered.

You have not answered the question at all. Why do you reference the Bible as common ground if it has no bearing to the argument? When I give evidence for the use of a certain drug over another, I don't have to ask my opposition about the Tooth Fairy, to 'establish a common ground'.

Based on the content in this post, it seems reasonable to conclude that if I actually answered your driving question, (at the end) that you would not perceive it. Which does not mean there is not good reason.

Why?

The direct answer is there, yet you do not perceive it.

You have not answered the question. All you have done is changed the definition of the word 'evidence'.

Said non-existence is merely your lack of perception. Which makes me curious re: how much of the same types of opinions are held (In common with the One you fail to perceive is existing)

Then give some incontrovertible evidence that entails or strongly suggests, over any other plausible explanation, god's existence.

Does morality exist without God?

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