Does mass-baptism in the ocean count?

[Aibrean]

I don't know about the Episcopal church but typically you have to share beliefs to be a member (of the church, not THE Church). It's kind of the point.

 

[Midlifestart]

Lillamb I do not necessarily believe that my beliefs conflict with those of the Episcopal church. And I think it is premature to judge my beliefs when I am so uninformed and don't know yet what I believe. I was merely quoting here what I had been reading about baptism. How does that suddenly mean that those I worship with aren't "like-minded"? How would I know if they are like-minded or not when I obviously still know so little, other than my complete faith in and acceptance of Christ?

According to the book "Holy Baptism" put out by the Episcopal church and required reading in my congregation prior to baptism, "Baptism is a sacrament...Sacraments make something that is already true and available real for us so that we might fully benefit from it." It goes on to say that "when an invisible reality is realized, or made real, that is a sacrament."

How would that differ from what I said above? I already accept Christ as my savior, etc and view baptism as making public what I already feel in my heart and spirit. Undergoing baptism, which of course I intend to do, realizes the invisible reality.

Why on earth would that make it wrong for me to worship at a church that I very much enjoy, where I already feel those in attendance are like-minded in many ways?

And FWIW (and if this offends anyone, sorry, but my church is quite liberal), I have already taken communion because they allow CWOB at this congregation. My first time was an amazing experience and I felt an instantaneous connection with my Savior when I did it.

 

[Aibrean]

What is your specific denomination? I don't think "Episcopal" says enough.

From http://www.episcopalchurch.org

Outward and visible signs of inward and spiritual grace, given by Christ as sure and certain means for receiving God's grace. Baptism and Eucharist are the two great sacraments given by Christ to his church.

You believe it's just a sign/symbol but not that it's a means for receiving God's grace as the Episcopal church states. I believe you need to get into more specific talks with your priest about this.

 

[Midlifestart]

Aibrean I am finding your question confusing. I am American. My church is Episcopalian and it is in the United States. It is under the local Archdiocese in my district. What else exactly do you need to know about this denomination? If you have more questions about it, may I suggest you check over on the "Scripture,Tradition,Reason-Anglican & Old Catholic" board?

 

[Aibrean]

There are several splinters of the Episcopal church. There is Episcopal, Reformed Episcopal, Anglican Church in America, etc. just like there is not a "Lutheran" church. I asked because yours seems more liberal, however the most liberal branch (I quoted above) doesn't say the same as what your specific church is teaching you.

 

[Midlifestart]

Well according to their website they are part of the local Episcopal Archdiocese which is "part of the broader Episcopal Church, a branch of the worldwide Anglican Communion." I don't think they are viewed as a splinter group.

I get what you are saying about the "symbolic" vs "receiving God's grace". No one at the church has used the word "symbolic". I was restating what my nondenominational colleague had told me this morning and what I'd read elsewhere. I did not, at the time, realize that there were different schools of thought on this subject (as I've said many times, I am too new to know the differences).

I DID post, however, direct quotes about baptism from literature put out by the Episcopal church via Morehouse Publishing, which is a well known publisher of Episcopal church literature, including The Book of Common Prayer, which is our prayerbook.

 

[Midlifestart]

...so when I posted "Sacraments make something that is already true and available real for us so that we might fully benefit from it." And "when an invisible reality is realized, or made real, that is a sacrament" that came directly from the same publisher who puts out the Episcopal prayerbook.

 

[freezerman2000]

I am planning to be baptized in the Episcopal church I've been attending. The priest would prefer I wait until fall, so that the maximum number of congregants will be in attendance. While I understand why this might be a good thing (would give me an opportunity to being welcomed by a lot more people, connect with them, etc, and would be inspiring for the congregation), I am eager to do it earlier. Because I've lived a very difficult and painful life until now, the priest said he would consider an earlier date if I feel it is necessary (lots of really unfortunate baggage here and I need to put my old self to rest sooner rather than later).

I just heard on the radio that there is a large Christian music and worship festival at a beach in my state in a few weeks. Not only is my favorite Christian rock band performing, they are doing non-denominational ocean baptisms at the end of the event. I called the place that is sponsoring it and they said there is no baptismal certificate given. I surmise that many of the people getting in the water are being re-baptized, but I'm sure there would be some like me who've never been baptized.

So I'm wondering--for my own peace of mind (because I REALLY feel I need to get baptized ASAP) could I do the ocean baptism and then go through the formal baptism later on at my church (which would enable me to be a member of the Episcopal church)? My church only accepts baptisms from other denominations if there is a baptismal certificate, so while the ocean baptism wouldn't count with them, I'm wondering whether it counts in general. I'm thinking I could just go through it twice and the 2nd one would be more formal and some of my friends would attend, but the ocean one could be my own personal testimony to my newfound faith.

Thoughts?

Hi, and welcome to the Anglican communion!
Ask your priest if you can publicly dedicate your life to Christ before the Baptism, and if the early mass Baptism would be in accordance with Church policy.
If you are able to do the dedication, the congregation can be aware of your intentions, and may help your upcoming Baptism even more meaningful.
Please let us know how things go for you.

 

[Midlifestart]

Thanks for the welcome freezerman! I may ask him on Sunday. He might tell me it's ok since there is no baptismal certificate and no knowing whether those conducting the ocean baptisms are even truly ordained. Or he may tell me that it's not ok and I can live with that too.

And again, for those who are questioning whether I am worshipping with like-minded people, seriously take a look at the other message board section I listed above. You will see A LOT of variation in beliefs among Anglicans. It's probably impossible to say that all Anglicans are "like-minded" because there apparently is so much room for differeing viewpoints.

 

[freezerman2000]

Thanks for the welcome freezerman! I may ask him on Sunday. He might tell me it's ok since there is no baptismal certificate and no knowing whether those conducting the ocean baptisms are even truly ordained. Or he may tell me that it's not ok and I can live with that too.

And again, for those who are questioning whether I am worshipping with like-minded people, seriously take a look at the other message board section I listed above. You will see A LOT of variation in beliefs among Anglicans. It's probably impossible to say that all Anglicans are "like-minded" because there apparently is so much room for differeing viewpoints.

In my parish, there IS room for differing view points..the glue that holds us together is the Love of Christ for us, our love for Him, and one another...and our love is genuine.

 

[Midlifestart]

Freezerman that is pretty much how the priest explained it to me. There is lots of room there for differing viewpoints. I love the fact that we are traditional but liberal. It works well for me from a congregational standpoint--I appreciate the structure and the liturgy, but I also appreciate the fact that we aren't filled with a gazillion rules (remember, I came out of Judaism, which (depending on the denomination) can be nothing BUT rules!

That does not mean that I don't enjoy delving into all different resources from different Christian denominations though. As a "young" Christian, I read from a variety of sources, find strength in listening to podcasts of all sorts, and enjoy listening to the local Christian rock stations on the radio.

 

[LilLamb219]

Thanks for the welcome freezerman! I may ask him on Sunday. He might tell me it's ok since there is no baptismal certificate and no knowing whether those conducting the ocean baptisms are even truly ordained. Or he may tell me that it's not ok and I can live with that too.

And again, for those who are questioning whether I am worshipping with like-minded people, seriously take a look at the other message board section I listed above. You will see A LOT of variation in beliefs among Anglicans. It's probably impossible to say that all Anglicans are "like-minded" because there apparently is so much room for differeing viewpoints.

On some points there are varying opinions and that is fine. But we're talking about a Sacrament here. I could be wrong, but I thought that the Episcopalians believed that baptism is God's work. Non-denominations mainly believe that baptism is not a work of God. When you start talking to people of other denominations, please know now that they will say things to you that aren't in line with the congregational beliefs of the church you'll be attending. You'll become VERY confused too since you're at the beginning of your faith. Talk with your priest

 

[Midlifestart]

Thanks Lillamb. Makes sense to me.

I am still wondering whether I can officially consider myself a Christian (in general) given my Christian beliefs. Meaning, have I in fact converted already because I have stated my faith? I will need to ask the priest this. It would give me such huge peace of mind to know the answer.

It is hard for me to get my head around the concept of actually being welcomed into a different faith so quickly and readily. My religion of birth is one where potential converts are intentionally pushed away, not made to feel welcome, forced to go through a purposely long and drawn out conversion process, and then, when they've finally taken the plunge, told that their conversions are not universally accepted by all denominations.

 

[freezerman2000]

Thanks Lillamb. Makes sense to me.

I am still wondering whether I can officially consider myself a Christian (in general) given my Christian beliefs. Meaning, have I in fact converted already because I have stated my faith? I will need to ask the priest this. It would give me such huge peace of mind to know the answer.

It is hard for me to get my head around the concept of actually being welcomed into a different faith so quickly and readily. My religion of birth is one where potential converts are intentionally pushed away, not made to feel welcome, forced to go through a purposely long and drawn out conversion process, and then, when they've finally taken the plunge, told that their conversions are not universally accepted by all denominations.

Nobody is deliberately pushed away from the Episcopal church..I have found that ALL are welcome if they are sincere in their walk with Christ..
See if you can connect with Anglicans Online | What do Anglicans-Episcopalians Believe? this may help you on your journey to full communion.

 

[LilLamb219]

Thanks Lillamb. Makes sense to me.

I am still wondering whether I can officially consider myself a Christian (in general) given my Christian beliefs. Meaning, have I in fact converted already because I have stated my faith? I will need to ask the priest this. It would give me such huge peace of mind to know the answer.

It is hard for me to get my head around the concept of actually being welcomed into a different faith so quickly and readily. My religion of birth is one where potential converts are intentionally pushed away, not made to feel welcome, forced to go through a purposely long and drawn out conversion process, and then, when they've finally taken the plunge, told that their conversions are not universally accepted by all denominations.

If you believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for the forgiveness of your sins, then you are a Christian!

 

[heron]

Tres cool. Dive in!

 

[chilehed]

It is hard for me to get my head around the concept of actually being welcomed into a different faith so quickly and readily. My religion of birth is one where potential converts are intentionally pushed away, not made to feel welcome, forced to go through a purposely long and drawn out conversion process, and then, when they've finally taken the plunge, told that their conversions are not universally accepted by all denominations.

I gather then that you grew up in the Reformed or Conservative tradition?

I came out of a tradition common to most Protestant denominations, in which to join you need do little more than show up and give your name to the secretary. There are real problems with that, and after having gone through a long period of formation in preparation for entering the Catholic Church I have a great appreciation for careful preparation.

I figured that he act of publicly joining a denomination is significant enough that I owed myself the time to prayerfully study questions like: Do I understand what that denomination teaches as doctrine? Whether I agree or disagree with them, is it because I'm self-deceived? How do I know whether they're right or not? On what grounds do they have the authority to teach it?

 

[Midlifestart]

Heron thanks! Lillamb that makes me feel better. And Freezerman, thanks for the link. I intend to check it out.

Chilehed I grew up beyond Reform. My atheist father told me (very proudly) "we are NON-PRACTICING Jews!" as if this was some exciting, special group to which we belonged. When I used to ask my mom if she believed in God, my father would shoot her the evil eye, she'd hesitate, and then say "I believe in Mother Nature." She wasn't ALLOWED to even acknowledge God to us for fear that it might influence us!

Many years later, I began getting curious and started studying Judaism in earnest. I spent over a decade moving between every denomination within the faith. I can honestly say I have experienced, observed, and worshipped with every denomination out there--Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, and even Reconstructionist (the latter doesn't even necessarily acknowledge the existence of God). I've met people who have converted via the various denominations and the backbiting and refusal of one not to accept a convert from another, and the treatment of converts in general, the hushed whispers, the quiet tsk, tsking at services, is just so sad and so far removed from God and prayer.

Despite at one point nearly living an Orthodox Jewish life, I was as far from connecting with God then as I was when I lived in my parents' house and God was not permitted in our discussions. I never found the connection, no matter what I tried, no matter how hard I prayed, until I accepted Christ as my savior. I spent half a century without a relationship with God, so I'm beyond glad I can spend the next half century (give or take) with Him.

 

[heron]

I spent over a decade moving between every denomination within the faith. I can honestly say I have experienced, observed, and worshipped with every denomination out there--Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, and even Reconstructionist (the latter doesn't even necessarily acknowledge the existence of God).

So then you would have had enough exposure to different ones, to pick up their doctrine.

 

[chilehed]

Midlifestart,

Yeah, I think I understand. When my wife and I were looking for a temple we bounced around quite a bit before we finally found a Reformed temple where we were immediately welcomed with open arms. I knew that converts into Reformed congregations aren't accepted by the Orthodox or by many Conservative congregations, but I didn't realize the extent of that dynamic among the various movements.

I'll put up ten Ruth's Chris ribeyes against a McDonald's hamburger that you'll never experience anything like that among Christians. As you've already realized, we disagree on a lot of things, there are even some who'll tell you that I'm not a Christian because I'm Catholic.... but we all LOVE converts. Welcome to the family.