Does man have a freewill ?

[Jerry N.]

None of us would like a total stranger... or any person for that matter, to say about us... See [Jerry]... he doesn't just tuck his daughters in at night... He sexually assaults them.
We would be appalled... even angry.... Not to mention, we would feel like persons just sullied our reputation publicly.

What about God... does he feel the same way?
Of course he does. His reputation is very important to him. Numbers 14:15, 16; Joshua 6:27; Joshua 9:9
He feel just as hurt when people say things about him, which he has not declared, and which stain his reputation, owing to the fact they are not true.

Thanks for not proposing that God decreed that Adam and Eve sin, but what scriptural basis do you have for saying God knew Adam would sin?

Thanks for your reply. I don’t think God ever decrees humans to sin. I’m not sure about the testing of Job, but I think it is more like decreeing that a wolf will kill a deer. There are many verses. I’ll pick Isaiah 45:1-25 and Isaiah 41:4.

 

[Jerry N.]

Actually, that is the problem right there - "in understanding the mind of God. Scriptures help us in a small way, but the practicality of living a Christian life is of more importance for us as we read the Bible."
So many people have the "mind of God", and there are like thousands of conflicting ideas.

Because people do not stick to the scriptures, but do the very thing the scriptures condemn "learn not to go beyond the things which are written" 1 Corinthians 4:6, they become the authority on what the scriptures say, rather than the scriptures being the authority on what God says... We then have the problem of people saying things without even consulting the scriptures, or even using one scripture to support what they.

When we use the Bible, we are allowing the scriptures to be "profitable for teaching [us], for reproof, for correction [us], for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16, 17
That seldom happens in communities where the large majority identify as Christian... which is quite a sad state of affairs, isn't it.

Then making things worst, we have billions of people believing they are living what the Bible says, when in reality, they are not. Hence why Matthew 7:21-21 is true.

I agree.

 

[Jerry N.]

God ordained everything in creation for his own purposes, including the cruel torture and murder of his own Son.

If God decreed that the Israelites would backslide, wouldn’t the penalties He imposed be unfair?

 

[Clare73]

If God decreed that the Israelites would backslide, wouldn’t the penalties He imposed be unfair?

If all men are spiritually dead in trespasses and sin (Eph 2:1), spiritually powerless to believe (Jn 3:3-5), is it unfair that salvation is only by faith?

 

[Jerry N.]

If all men are spiritually dead in trespasses and sin (Eph 2:1), spiritually powerless to believe, is it unfair that salvation is only by faith?

I would say it is mercy, but I don't believe in predestination in the same way you seem to believe it. I understand why you believe it, and I wouldn't disparage you for it.

 

[Clare73]

I would say it is mercy, but I don't believe in predestination in the same way you seem to believe it. I understand why you believe it, and I wouldn't disparage you for it.

For those spritually dead and powerless to believe (Jn 3:3-5), how is salvation by faith mercy to them? . . .they have no power to believe.

 

[Jerry N.]

For those spritually dead and powerless to believe (Jn 3:3-5), how is salvation by faith mercy to them? . . .they have no power to believe.

It is mercy to save them from eternal damnation. Joshua 24:15 is a good example of Joshua’s free will choice to serve God. Was Joshua saved when he said that? I might also add that God is pretty good at raising people from the dead.

 

[Clare73]

It is mercy to save them from eternal damnation.

But they must believe to be saved from that damnation, and they are powerless to believe, they do not even see the kingdom of God (Jn 3:3-5).
They must be born again of the sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) will of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5) in order to be able to even see the kingdom of God and believe.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

God ordained everything in creation for his own purposes, including the cruel torture and murder of his own Son.

I asked "So, you think God decrees every rape and murder and every other sin that occurs?". So, I take this answer as a yes to that question. Proving that you do not know who God is.

God is love (1 John 4:8). A God who is love would not ordain the rapes, murders and other sins that He condemns! That's complete insanity to believe such a thing! You have God contradicting His own character. You think He punishes people for the things He decreed for them to do. That is pure lunacy to claim such a thing. No, He does not.

 

[Jerry N.]

But they must believe to be saved from that damnation, and they are powerless to believe, they do not even see the kingdom of God (Jn 3:3-5).
They must be born again of the sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) will of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5) in order to be able to even see the kingdom of God and believe.

They can see and not believe. or believe and fall away. Hebrews 6:4-6 .

 

[Spiritual Jew]

But they must believe to be saved from that damnation, and they are powerless to believe, they do not even see the kingdom of God (Jn 3:3-5).
They must be born again of the sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) will of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5) in order to be able to even see the kingdom of God and believe.

Everything you're saying here is from your own imagination. Nowhere in John 3 does it say that someone must first be born again before they can believe. One must believe in order to be born again after which they then see and enter the kingdom of God spiritually.

If someone asked you what they had to do to be saved you could not answer them the way Paul and Silas answered that question.

Acts 16:29 The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

To be consistent with your beliefs, you would have to answer that question by saying: "There is nothing you can do to be saved. You just have to hope that you are one day born again of the Holy Spirit and, if that happens, you will believe in the Lord Jesus and be saved, and that is true of anyone in your household as well.".

 

[BBAS 64]

If God decreed that the Israelites would backslide, wouldn’t the penalties He imposed be unfair?

Good day, Jerry

The decree of God makes it necessary and unchangeable in both it's causes and effects.

Serves the unchangeable purposes of God and there for is not unjust but consistent with His nature.

In Him,

Bill

 

[Clare73]

I asked "So, you think God decrees every rape and murder and every other sin that occurs?". So, I take this answer as a yes to that question. Proving that you do not know who God is.

You can't hang this on God.

God ordained that Adam have free will.
Sin has consequences. . .God told Adam what they would be.
That Adam then brought ruin on the human race as a consequence of his sin is not attributable to God, but to Adam choosing the consequences of disobedience rather than obedience.
Now unrenerate man is spiritually dead (Eph 2:1) i.e., powerless, helpless to do anything spiritual, including belief.
He must be regenerated by the sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) will of the Holy Spirit in order to believe (Jn 3:3-5).

 

[Jerry N.]

Good day, Jerry

The decree of God makes it necessary and unchangeable in both it's causes and effects.

Serves the unchangeable purposes of God and there for is not unjust but consistent with His nature.

In Him,

Bill

I’m confused. Did God decree that the Israelites would backslide or not. Thanks for your politeness.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You can't hang this on God.

LOL. That's what you're doing by saying that God decrees everything that happens.

God ordained that Adam have free will.
Sin has consequences. . .God told Adam what they would be.

So, you think only Adam had free will, but no one else? That's nonsense.

That Adam then brought ruin on the human race as a consequence of his sin is not attributable to God, but to Adam choosing the consequences of disobedience over obedience.

Adam is not responsible for your sin or my sin. That's ludicrous. What Adam's sin caused was that we all would have a natural tendency to sin, but that doesn't mean we have no control over ourselves and are not able to make moral choices, including doing what is right and what God commands all people everywhere to do (repent - Acts 17:30).

Now unrenerate man is spiritually dead (Eph 2:1) i.e., powerless, helpless to do anything spiritual, including belief.

Nope. That's not what that means. You continually just make things up that are not actually said anywhere in scripture. You need to stop doing that.

Being dead in sins simply means someone is separated from a relationship with God because of their sins. Jesus taught that sinners are sick and in need of the physician. Do you just ignore that?

Mark 2:16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners? 17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Jesus came to call sinners to repentance. Who are sinners? All people are sinners (Romans 3:23). Therefore, Jesus came to call all people to repentance. Which makes sense in light of the fact that God commands all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). Jesus would not call all people to repent if not all people were able to do so.

Jesus described sinners as being sick and in need of the physician, which is Him. Are sick people able to acknowledge that they are sick and that they can't heal themselves and instead need the physician to heal them? Of course they are. You try to say that unregenerate sinners are not able to repent or believe, but scripture never teaches such a thing. You misinterpret what it means to be dead in sins while apparently ignoring that sinners are also described as being sick. You need to differentiate between what it means to be dead in sins and to be spiritually sick and in need of spiritual healing from the physician, Jesus.

He must be regenerated by the sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) will of the Holy Spirit in order to believe.

Wrong. You are badly misinterpreting John 3:6-8 and forcing your doctrine onto the passage. Nowhere did Jesus say what you are saying here.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Now unrenerate man is spiritually dead (Eph 2:1) i.e., powerless, helpless to do anything spiritual, including belief.
He must be regenerated by the sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) will of the Holy Spirit in order to believe (Jn 3:3-5).

When do you think someone is sealed by the Holy Spirit like what Paul refers to here:

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

I would expect that it happens basically at the same time someone is regenerated by the Holy Spirit. Would you agree? If so, then that would mean you believe that a person is sealed by the Holy Spirit before they believe. Is that what you believe?

 

[Clare73]

LOL. That's what you're doing by saying that God decrees everything that happens.

So, you think only Adam had free will, but no one else? That's nonsense.

I guess Jesus got it wrong. . .". . .man is a slave to sin," (Jn 8:34). Slaves are not free.

 

[Clare73]

When do you think someone is sealed by the Holy Spirit like what Paul refers to here:

It comes with the new birth (Jn 3:3-5) by the sovereign choice (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) of the Holy Spirit when they then believe.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

I would expect that it happens basically at the same time someone is regenerated by the Holy Spirit. Would you agree?

Agreed. . .

If so, then that would mean you believe that a person is sealed by the Holy Spirit before they believe. Is that what you believe?

No. . .regeneration, sealed, faith are all one package. . .you don't get one without the others.

 

[Clare73]

LOL. That's what you're doing by saying that God decrees everything that happens.
So, you think only Adam had free will, but no one else? That's nonsense.
Adam is not responsible for your sin or my sin. That's ludicrous. What Adam's sin caused was that we all would have a natural tendency to sin, but that doesn't mean we have no control over ourselves and are not able to make moral choices, including doing what is right and what God commands all people everywhere to do (repent - Acts 17:30).
Nope. That's not what that means. You continually just make things up that are not actually said anywhere in scripture. You need to stop doing that.
Being dead in sins simply means someone is separated from a relationship with God because of their sins. Jesus taught that sinners are sick and in need of the physician. Do you just ignore that?
Mark 2:16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners? 17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Jesus came to call sinners to repentance. Who are sinners? All people are sinners (Romans 3:23). Therefore, Jesus came to call all people to repentance. Which makes sense in light of the fact that God commands all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). Jesus would not call all people to repent if not all people were able to do so.

Jesus described sinners as being sick and in need of the physician, which is Him. Are sick people able to acknowledge that they are sick and that they can't heal themselves and instead need the physician to heal them? Of course they are. You try to say that unregenerate sinners are not able to repent or believe, but scripture never teaches such a thing. You misinterpret what it means to be dead in sins while apparently ignoring that sinners are also described as being sick. You need to differentiate between what it means to be dead in sins and to be spiritually sick and in need of spiritual healing from the physician, Jesus.
Wrong. You are badly misinterpreting John 3:6-8

It falls to you to Biblically demonstrte your assertion.

and forcing your doctrine onto the passage. Nowhere did Jesus say what you are saying here.

There's more to the NT word of God than just the gospels.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I guess Jesus got it wrong. . .". . .man is a slave to sin," (Jn 8:34). Slaves are not free.

I guess you got it wrong again. You continually misunderstand scripture. You think being dead in sins means we have no ability to make the right moral choices, which is completely wrong. And you ignore that Jesus said sinners are sick, not dead (Mark 2:16-17). And you think being a slave to sin means we have no ability to repent of our sin and believe in Christ, which is not what that means at all. Why do you accept Jesus saying that man is a slave to sin, but ignore that He also said that sinners are sick (Mark 2:16-17)? Sick people are able to acknowledge that they are sick and can't heal themselves and need the physician (Jesus) to heal them.