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I'm not sure I fully follow. It sounds like from your view God didn't know His own decree from eternity, which again points to God learning.Not if you know how decrees are produced. . .a decree produces effect, the knowledge of which effect is, therefore, foreknown; i.e., before it occurs.
This verse always bothered me: 1Samual 15:35: And Samuel did not see Saul again until the day of his death, but Samuel grieved over Saul. And the Lord regretted that he had made Saul king over Israel. Can somebody explain it?I'm not sure I fully follow. It sounds like from your view God didn't know His own decree from eternity, which again points to God learning.
Well, of course, neither Calvin nor Arminius are authors of Scripture, so they are not the parameters for its understanding.I understand, but I thought that the “decree” idea in this thread would add some nuance to Calvinism vs. Arminianism. Maybe it does, but I missed the point. Theologically, I wouldn’t back either side. Practically, I think Arminianism is more functional. Scriptural arguments have been around for a long time, and I think it is a paradox. Like the Catholics say, “It is a mystery of faith.” Thank you for your reply. If you have more to add, I would be interested.
Your thinking of eternity (without beginning and without end) in terms of time. There is no time in eternity.I'm not sure I fully follow. It sounds like from your view God didn't know His own decree from eternity, which again points to God learning.
Okay have a good dayIsaiah 55: 8-9:
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
No, I'm not.My brother now you are goading me.
No, I'm not.The only mistake I made, and confessed to, was miss posting the verse numbers. You are implying that I constantly make mistakes.
You called yourself old, so I can't help but wonder if maybe you make that same type of mistake often. I'm not saying you do, I just wonder if maybe you do. I spent a good amount of time showing you how I understand Romans 9:22-24 and that wasn't even the text you meant to reference. I just don't want to waste time like that again. You don't have to take so much offense. And I said I may change my mind. So, just relax and don't be so sensitive.That is far from the truth. I tried to use levity that you are now attempting to use against me. The Bible teaches that there is only one that is perfect which makes you just as imperfect and prong to error as any human being. I’m sure you have passed brain gas just as everyone else. I forgive you. I hold no ill will for you.
ETA: I’m not offended just baffled by your insensitive comments.
I believe your view still implies change, since it introduces sequence. Even if it's not in time God in the first stage does not know and in the second stage He does. So logically God is learning which contradicts the notion of God's unchangable nature.Your thinking of eternity (without beginning and without end) in terms of time. There is no time in eternity.
God knows what is going to happen (prognosis) in time before it happens in timebecause he has decreed that/when it shall happen in time.I believe your view still implies change, since it introduces sequence. Even if it's not in time God in the first stage does not know and in the second stage He does. So logically God is learning which contradicts the notion of God's unchangable nature.
Move on brother. Maybe looking up and studying verses 22-24 did you some good or maybe not. You be the judge but don’t be annoyed by studying the word of God.No, I'm not.
No, I'm not.
You called yourself old, so I can't help but wonder if maybe you make that same type of mistake often. I'm not saying you do, I just wonder if maybe you do. I spent a good amount of time showing you how I understand Romans 9:22-24 and that wasn't even the text you meant to reference. I just don't want to waste time like that again. You don't have to take so much offense. And I said I may change my mind. So, just relax and don't be so sensitive.
You're telling me to move on after I already told you that I was moving on from you. Why didn't you just accept it in the first place?Move on brother. Maybe looking up and studying verses 22-24 did you some good or maybe not. You be the judge but don’t be annoyed by studying the word of God.
It's very easy to explain. God gave man free will and it saddens Him when someone makes bad choices that go against His desires like Saul did.This verse always bothered me: 1Samual 15:35: And Samuel did not see Saul again until the day of his death, but Samuel grieved over Saul. And the Lord regretted that he had made Saul king over Israel. Can somebody explain it?
So, you think God decrees every rape and murder and every other sin that occurs?God knows what is going to happen (prognosis) in time before it happens in timebecause he has decreed that/when it shall happen in time.
God doesn’t “regret” making Saul king in the same sense as we do. The bible teaches us God is omniscient so He knows all. I’ve always though of these kind of words like regret or repent when applied to God to be an anthropomorphism to helps up better understand the sorrow that He has for Saul. Below is what the word means to give you some context.This verse always bothered me: 1Samual 15:35: And Samuel did not see Saul again until the day of his death, but Samuel grieved over Saul. And the Lord regretted that he had made Saul king over Israel. Can somebody explain it?
Thanks, that is pretty much what I thought, and it indicates the limitations of language.It's very easy to explain. God gave man free will and it saddens Him when someone makes bad choices that go against His desires like Saul did.
You can see the same thing here:
Genesis 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
Thanks. That is helpful and well thought out.God doesn’t “regret” making Saul king in the same sense as we do. The bible teaches us God is omniscient so He knows all. I’ve always though of these kind of words like regret or repent when applied to God to be an anthropomorphism to helps up better understand the sorrow that He has for Saul. Below is what the word means to give you some context.
נָחַם nâcham, naw-kham'; a primitive root; properly, to sigh, i.e. breathe strongly; by implication, to be sorry, i.e. (in a favorable sense) to pity, console or (reflexively) rue; or (unfavorably) to avenge (oneself):—comfort (self), ease (one's self), repent(-er,-ing, self).
The KJV translates Strong's H5162 in the following manner: comfort (57x), repent (41x), comforter (9x), ease (1x).
I don't know what more to say than I have already said.God knows what is going to happen (prognosis) in time before it happens in timebecause he has decreed that/when it shall happen in time.
For the last two pages I read, I see people saying things about God, that is nowhere in scripture, and none of the statements have even one scripture quoted, or referenced, to say, 'well this is what the scriptures tell us.'So, you think God decrees every rape and murder and every other sin that occurs?
(Psalm 93:2, Habakkuk 1:12)Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
None of us would like a total stranger... or any person for that matter, to say about us... See [Jerry]... he doesn't just tuck his daughters in at night... He sexually assaults them.I’ve been confused with this decree idea from the start. God spoke, and the world was made. One could say that the world was predestined to exist. God did not decree that Adam and Eve would sin. He knew they would, but He gave them free will to choose for themselves. I’m missing some connection here.
Actually, that is the problem right there - "in understanding the mind of God. Scriptures help us in a small way, but the practicality of living a Christian life is of more importance for us as we read the Bible."I understand that you are looking for truth, and it is a wonderful thing. The conflict among theologians between free will and predestination has been going on for a few hundred years. It hasn’t been resolved, and a great deal of division has taken place in the church because of it. The core problem is not in the scriptures but in understanding the mind of God. Scriptures help us in a small way, but the practicality of living a Christian life is of more importance for us as we read the Bible. You probably know about the discussions on how many angels can dance on a pin. It is not as silly as it sounds, because they were trying to determine if angels took up space and had mass. We know a lot about angels from the Bible, but we don’t have enough information to solve the problem. It is much the same with the freewill and predestination problem. We know a lot from the Bible, but definitive information is lacking. The number of concepts in the Bible that we can not have sure answers for is high; however, the way of salvation and living a Christian life are much more clear.
God ordained everything in creation for his own purposes, including the cruel torture and murder of his own Son.So, you think God decrees every rape and murder and every other sin that occurs?
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